Pulling the infield in

just

I hate bringing the infield in.

I agree with you that it laways lead to a cheap hit and a run

If they are going to score I at least want to get an out. I have faith in my hitters to get it back for us

I have a theory on this one! Let me preface it by saying that we do play infield in when the situation dictates it. However...

Youth, travel and/or high school baseball is about walks and errors. The team that commits the fewest of these defensive boo boos usually wins.

Field condition, specifically the IF turf, has got to be another factor when considering when to play in.

So, I am more inclined to say it is almost not worth it. No lead is too safe. If I can trade an out for a run, even late in the game, I might be inclined to do so if I am confident that:

1. The other pitcher will walk atleast one of my hitters in the next inning.
2. The opposing defense will commit an error that will allow me to get a runner on.
3. The surface we will be playing on will produce a bad hop, allowing us to get a baserunner on.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly agree that playing the infield in is the right thing to do in certain situations. I just feel that too many factors, that are inherent to 18 and under (or younger) baseball, work against you in this situation.

I'm pretty much a pull them in at last resort guy also. See way to many pull them in to quick or to early.

I have seen coaches do it against us in the first inning---cannot figure that out unless you dont trust your offense to do the job--I belive you kill the cofidence of your team by pulling in the "D" early in a game--you are telling your offense you have no faith in them.

I trust my hitters enough to trade a run for an out in the top of the ninth in a close game

We have tracked this and we only seem to get the out at the plate 20% of the time. So, we don't do it. Rather, we split the difference. Naturally, we've had a SS that could really throw for the last 4 years and so, he could play deeper.

we have very little success with this ourself. so we will only do this in the last inning.

i despise bringing the infield in. its got to be desperation last inning stuff and then im reluctant. ive got the stats from ncaa on batting averages with infieled in - goes up a huge amount. if i can find where ive "filed" them i'll post.
i dont know how many big innings have been created for us by teams bringing their infield in in early innings. i just stand there in the 3rd base coaches box(or in dugout when i have an assistant to coach 3rd - i'd much rather be in the dugout with the hitters) amazed at what possibly could be going on in their mind. high school baseball is about avoiding big innings and you are just asking for them when you bring infield in.
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball

As an umpire, if you are experienced, you will take some of your positioning cues from the defensive set....I am always amazed when in the early innings, a team will pull the infield in.

I dont have stats from my game diary handy, but the sucess rate of getting the out at home in my experience is low......

I do HS teams of varying levels of ability...Some championship quality and some barely PONY League level......at the lower end many times an infielder who is barely competant at his normal depth is totally outmatched at half the distance.... bobbles...mishandled throws result in a run and no out.....if they had been back at least they would have possibly gotten the out...

what you said ump is exactly why we generally go on contact..A gold call for us..Only hold up at third with him being the only runner and 0 or 1 out.

we'll read down angle at 3rd alot of times too. not all the time but some.
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball

The standard formula for the winning run on third in the last inning with less than two outs is to load the bases and play half way.

You then have the runner at home on a grounder and possible double play at first.

If the batter gets a hit or a deep fly ball, the game would be over any way.

Willie

You play it your way I will play it mine---I didnt realize that there was a standard forula for anything in baseball

What are you telling your pitcher by walking two batters intentionally ?

If we lose by having b--ls so be it--I have confidence in my kids and I want them to know that we believe in them--

Your profile says you like to watch kids develop--how can that happen if you don't let them play thru tough spots ????

Bringing in the infield is a desperation move that I feel should only be done when you just can not afford to give up a run. Winning run at third less than two outs for example. Many times you will see teams bring the infield in in situations that it is not a must. The bottom line is you can get out of trouble with this technique and you can get into alot of trouble as well. Me personally I never bring the inf in unless the game is on the line right then and there. Now that is not to say that we are going to get out of it. It just gives us a chance to.

I'm glad to see I am not alone on my thinking on this.

Coach May - I have no data to support this, but it just "feels" or "seems" like the times I have seen/coached the infield in with runner on 3rd being the winning run that it STILL backfires with a bloop that would have been caught with tin infield back more often than it results in an out at the plate.

Just a gut feel, nothing more.

Coach May brings up an excellent point, as he usually does. TR...I have to tell you that sometimes we would do the same thing that Willie described. It may be the right thing to do. What Willie is telling his pitcher is:

1. Getting a force play is easier than a tag.
2. I have confidence in your ability to through a ground ball pitch.
3. I have confidence in the defense behind you, and maybe we will turn 2!

TR...I like your thinking as far as making pitchers pitch their way out of situations like this. However, you know it, I know it, and most everyone knows it...some kids just can't do this every time. I don't want to punish 17 for the vanity of 1!

Isn't this why we love baseball, all of the variables and situations!

like i said earlier we do not bring the infield in unless its a desperation time. bottom of the 7th, winning run on 3rd, less than 2 outs is one of those. if its the winning run and if its the bottom of the 7th we will walk the bases loaded. i believe 100% in letting kids play through stuff - but thats not one of those situations. you gotta give your kids a chance. we'll pull the outfield in - as deep as they can play and stil make the throw to the plate. we have in the past - and somehow its worked when we've done it - pulled an outfielder into the infield to hold the runner at 3rd so we can keep the 3rd baseman in ( 2 reasons - bluff them out of the squeeze and slow the runners jump/lead on a passball). now thats not in our playbook but something we have done in rare circumstances.
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball

In today's world of the aluminum bat bringing the infield even with the grass greatly increases the offense's chance for a hit. If we come in at all it's only to the line of the base paths and no closer, balls jump off aluminum much more than wood obviously, so slow rollers or weakly struck balls that a drawn in infield would handle are not as frequent, we'll take our chances on the ball being struck hard enough with the aluminum bat to freeze the runner at 3rd with our infield drawn only half way.

Our normal approach by our pitcher with the winning run at 3rd would be to throw hard inside and try to get the hitter to hit the ball to the 3rd baseman, pitcher, or shortstop. If we walk him we walk him but we will do our best to prevent him from going the other way to score the runner. If our pitcher is successful, the aluminum bat will probably still allow the hitter to strike the ball hard enough to get it past a drawn in infield, or bloop the ball over it. The infield drawn only to the line of the basepaths has a much better chance to make a play in this type of situation I believe.

I generally call for the infield corner guys to squeeze the middle. Have brought in a fifth infielder.. sometimes the runner at third gets caried away and we will run a fake squeeze prevent by crashing three bag..pitch out or hard up and in and try and wheel and throw the guy out at third..Has worked before..I love this Game!! Good commercial.

There are actually many standard formulas in baseball. Usually they are just called fundamentals.

My favorite has always been "Catch it before you throw it."

Offensively there are many. The better hitters will usually get a hit four times out of thirteen at bats. A good offense will use the many bunts and base running fundamentals to create runs rather than wait for them to happen.

The one usually least employed in a close game is bunting a runner from second to third with no outs. It is far easier to score from third than it is from second. (Base hit, pass ball, fly ball, ground ball)

My thoughts as well.....pull them in only as an end of game type situation. Had this happen last year in a post-season game. Walked them loaded and got a 5-2-3 double play. Fortune smiled on us that night. It does not alway work, but I felt that gave us the best percentage of stopping the run.

As for pulling them in earlier in a game, I feel like we have to score to win. So, we try and play for the higher percentage out while on defense.

[quote]Your profile says you like to watch kids develop--how can that happen if you don't let them play thru tough spots ????

TRhit

I always want my players to develop and become the most informed and able players within their ability.

I teach them that there are at least two ways of doing anything. I always run the practice on this play with both tactics to show them why I choose the bases loaded approach. More often than not the double play is in order.

I again stress that the 'winning run' can only be on third in the bottom of the last inning, otherwise it is the go ahead run.

If the batter wins, good for him.

I choose to play the percentages and give my players the best opportunity to succeed.

quote:

The one usually least employed in a close game is bunting a runner from second to third with no outs. It is far easier to score from third than it is from second.

Actually...quoting a study done by the ABCA over 60 years of MLB games (should be similar for college and to a lesser extent high school), that's not true. Shocking to me for sure. Based on a table of scoring percentages, with a runner at 2b and 0 out, he scores 60% of the times as opposed to at 3b with one out scoring 54%.

Of course a runner at 2nd with 1 out drops it to 45%. So by the numbers alone it would seem if you have a decent hitter at the plate, it's better to let him swing away.

ALl that being said, if I have a runner at 2b and 0 out in a tight situation, I bunt him over. Screw the numbers.

also depends on my hitter.. Do i have a lefty up? Are the following hitters as good or worse than the one at the plate..Is the guy a strikeout guy next? Will either usually hit a deep flyball etc. Decisions are usually made from personel as much as anything.

Bobo

I do not agree with you regarding a man on second no out-- I do not like giving up outs for no reason, no matter when or where--the way you coach indicates to me that you have a lack of faith in your players to get the job done--BUT, and this is a big BUT, a lot of what a coach does depends on the talent on his team and how well the coach knows and understands the talent

this starts a whole new discussion which to me is more relevant than all this linear/rotational nonsense.
whats your opinion of the a's(moneyball) theory? the numbers and percentages are there to prove it. but im reluctant to follow it completely. theres some teams you can bunt on all day and they will never get you out. but my theory is your philosophy has to be based on what you can do against the good teams.
i know in high school especially there's more ways for a runner to score from 3rd than 2nd. but outs are also important. but....
i'll bunt 1st and 2nd nobody out 99% of the time - regardless who is up. id rather steal than bunt the runner over on 1st nobody out. runner on 2nd nobody out i'll usually hit away unless its the bottom of the order and i have good bunter - with a chance of bunting for a hit up, followed by a good hitter. i despise squeezing. teams constantly help us get out of defensive jams by attempting to squeeze all the time. on base percentage is something we stress. just wanting to see some opinions. thats my philosophy but i dont have strong feelings either way - just wanting to hear some opinions.

raiderbb

First and second nobody out we might bunt as well not just to get runners to 2nd and 3rd but remove the doubleplay chances

2nd with nobody out we are hitting--we trust oyr hitters enough and expect that if they do make out it will be on the right side so the runner moves up

The thing here is the level of ball you are playing--our team is a "showcase" team so we expect our players to execute,plus we are not going to fool too many of our opponents with LL trickery.

Things work at the HS level that wont work at the showcase/travel level

JMO

R1 and R2 with 0 outs...that is not an automatic bunt for us. We will bunt to remove the dbl play as well depending on who is at the plate. We will bunt if we are trying to score one. I feel like if you are trying to score one that is all you will score on most occations. So if it is a game where the score will be a low one, we will move the runner to third.

With R1 and no outs.....We are trying to get runners into scoring position. Wether that is steal, bunt, hit and run, ball in the dirt, bunt and run, or whatever, we are trying to get the runner to second.

R2 and no outs.....Most often swinging away(unless playing for one). I am amazed at how often other teams will allow you to steal third....even the success % in the MLB is huge.

This brings up another question that I will post as a new topic....

I think most of us at some point in time have gone into a game pretty sure that our club was not evenly matched with our opponent that day or night. Personally I am not afraid to go against the grain especially if it might get the kids going. I had a young club last year with a lot of sophomores and two seniors with a few juniors sprinkled in. We were playing a senior laden club and we were facing a pitcher that was consistently around 90mph with a good breaking pitch but had a tendency to fall off towards first.While watching them take infield I noticed that their third bagger was standing to upright and played what I thought was also to deep. Normally I would not have even considered doing it because we were soundly beaten the first time we played them. I called my 1 hole hitter over and asked him to try and lay down a bunt down the third base line and explained to him why I wanted him to do it. He was game, and executed a beautiful bunt that caught them completely off gaurd and was safe at first to lead off the game.
This changed their game plan somewhat and allowed us to get up early on the scoreboard and made them play from behind. Which was something they were not accustomed to doing and we pulled off a 3-2W.
Essentially what I am saying is that I don't want to be completely predictable and if the situation presents itself, try and take advantage of it.
I don't think I would consider raiderbb's tactics as LL trickery, just being resourceful.

To move the infield in, to sacrifice bunt, hit & run, etc., are all things that are (or might be) dictated by several factors: the inning, the score, who is pitching for both teams, who is batting, who is on deck, who is in the bullpen ready to go, etc.

If I am behind and it isn't too early in the game (though there are exceptions to that, too) I will almost always move my infield in with a runner on third, though it is usually too risky to do with runners on 2nd and 3rd.

I know this---if I am on offense and the infield stays back in that situation I am going to score that runner from third almost every time. The defense is already telling me by using that alignment that they are willing to give up a run.

Bottom line, a coach just has to determine how important that one run is going to be.