punishments relevant to the offense

Coach,

First, I would distinguish between performance and conduct issues. 

In the example you gave, working too fast and overthrowing are performance issues.  Complaining in the dugout about his teammates is a conduct issue.

Even though both may arise from the same lack of self-discipline, treat them as separate issues.

For the performance issues, you want to give him all the help, explanations, and extra practice you can. It is reasonable to withhold game opportunities, either to convince him he needs to improve or to keep him in games only so long as he remains under control and practicing what you taught him.

I believe punishments should be as public as the offense, but they should always be aimed at restoring the player to the status of a solid citizen in good standing. For this reason, I do not endorse the idea of hitting him sharp grounders until he fails publicly in front of his teammates or doing anything else that would humiliate him. It's unlikely any player would respond well to such treatment and become the leader you want this player to become. Either he will resent the embarrassment or he will lose credibility in the eyes of his teammates

In this situation, you could require him to prepare and deliver a brief leadership presentation for his teammates on the importance of accepting personal responsibility, maintaining self-control, and not blaming teammates.  Make him write it out beforehand, clear it with you, and stick to the approved script.  Require him to include an apology for his dugout rant that includes a full acknowledgement of what he said, an explanation of why it was unhelpful to the team, and a promise to set a better example in the future.

It is fair to withhold some privileges of team membership (including participation) until he has performed this task sincerely and well.  It is also fair to require him to do additional conditioning or skill work to make up for whatever team activities he missed.  However, when he has completed the presentation/apology to your satisfaction, make sure everyone knows you consider the incident to be over.

Hope this helps,

S

DO NOT hit fungo's at him as a punishment.  He wears one of the chin and you can get sued and accused of child endangerment.  

We have a large tire tractor that we use for our workouts.  When I want to discipline my players I let them spend some time flipping tires.

In the situation you stated you could get creative.  Have him make 2 columns on a piece of paper.  Column 1: Things he did to aide in the loss.  Column 2:  Things the team did to aide in the loss.  Have him take that are write an essay on what was the bigger factor in the loss.

I normally start with a reflection process like mentioned.  When that does not get my point across, the Tractor Tire normally gets my message across.

Oh boy, you may be in a good ride on this one soooooo I'll start it off and get my opinion out of the way.

IMO, your are trying to be "nice" about the punishment.  If that is your thing, go for it.  But, there is no substitute punishment for missing the one thing they want the most...play time...again, IMO there is NO substitute.  If you are not willing to sit a player as punishment, because you are short on talent or numbers, then you are not willing to send a strong message.  I speak to this from my experiences as a player.. In HS the starting 3B spot was mine to win or loose......I lost it because I was Mr Funny all the time...and lost it rightfully so.  Almost the single best thing the HS Coach ever did for me.  

You can run a kid, take them out of their comfort zone by fielding when they usually don't, or attach a negative consequence to someone elses activity, but, if in the end he still starts and misses no play time you have accomplished nothing, other than maybe making him a good fielder.  IMO, this also sends a negative message to the kids that work hard, do the right things but just seem to be a little less talented.  It screams to them that if you have talent you can pretty much do whatever you want, pay a little price, and your still going to get your start/play time

Try simply reviewing the game.  Plays in the first inning matter as much as with 2 outs in the 7th.

Everyone has to do their job so their teammates don't have to pick them up.  Create a culture that when mistakes occur and someone does pick up a teammate that it gets called out right there in the game.  Example: with 1 out runner on third the batter K's.  Next guy pokes one up the middle - the whole team should be on the top step yelling his name with the "Hey Hey Johnny that's a Nice Pick up - attaboy".  You should be in the 3rd base box leading the effort.  Lot's of finger pointing, fist pumping and that kind of thing.  All positive stuff.  Make it unacceptable to be negative.  For this to stick though you cannot be going against that grain.  Not Pollyanna or anything but not a screamer/cusser type.  Think John Wooden.

After games in the team huddle things should be called out in terms of Johnny got a big 2 out hit in the 4th rather than Sammy hosed up not getting the one out RBI in the 4th and Johnny picked him up.  Both guys get the message you want.  Every 17 year old wants to be told they are good....by their teammates and maybe more than by the coach.   

Your guy believes he won't get the ultimate penalty which is benching because you need him.  If that is actually true and he is a SR. you've lost this round.  I would ask you though, if you lose with him, what is the cost of losing without him?  Especially if he gets the point.  Even if he doesn't and everyone understands what you did the only people you will hear from are the boys parents. 

I'd also get with the Freshman and JV players & coaches and change the culture of the program so they don't know anything different.  Work on the best players so they become the leaders of the new culture.  Meet with them 1-1 and stress that you are looking for them to be the new leaders and tell them what you want.  For this years crew do what you can do to set the new pattern so that when the next set comes they know what they will be getting. 

Consistency on approach matters.  All the best HS programs I have seen you can't tell the JV from the Varsity based on their approach to the game.  They get off the bus, warm up, play and conduct themselves the exact same way.  Sort of like the old "Oriole Way".  It is just understood.

First, I totally agree with many GREAT points made by all so far. 

One of the most important things to instill in a team is "team".  Under NO circumstance should a P be allowed to call out teammate errors. Other important lessons are include mental strength and "control what you can control".  He is failing at all of them. (I'm only talking about the conduct issue and not the performance issues) 

I can relate to your situation being at a small school and how hard it is to sit a kid.  I contend that it is worthwhile to take the short-term lumps (losses if necessary) in exchange for sending the right message and establishing the desired culture - sit the kid and communicate clearly what is right and wrong and what the expectations are if he wishes to enjoy the privilege of taking the field.  I think you will find that, because the talent pool is small, it will have an even greater impact with the whole team.  They will see clearly what is important to you and will ultimately rally around the struggling player to encourage him to straighten up in order to allow the team to perform at it's best.

Regarding the game scenario, it is also important to point out that those runs scored mostly because they reached base via his walks.  And I don't see a problem with running or other types of extra work being part of the discipline/reward menu.  It is not always feasible to send a immediate message with playing time and not all kids are motivated by the same things.  You have to continue to identify what motivators work best for each individual and for each group as a whole.

lots of good replies folks, thanks! Feel free to share any of your own scenarios/stories and what you did, or should have done in retrospect. I'm sure our collective experiences can help us all strengthen our coaching. 

Swamp, good point about performance vs. conduct issues. Lets come up with more ideas about conduct vs. performance punishments.

and cabbagedad, good point about different motivators for different kids!

so it looks like the consensus is that physical workouts are still commonplace and effective. and benching is (obviously) a super potent way to get your point across and worthwhile, even if it means eating it for a game. 

to be clear, I'm not suggesting getting "nice" with my punishments, I'm trying to make them have more weight/relevance to the specific offense and looking for alternatives to the norm. I dont think running a kid into the ground will necessarily change his ego, nor will benching him in some cases. although in some cases it will. sometimes it might take a few running sessions or games. In some cases he may lash out instead and then you loose them all together (something i cant afford to do) LHdad, it sounds like you and i had similar experiences in high school, just from opposite corners of the infield!  I responded pretty negatively to being benched. but it made me really rise to the occasion when i did play. Like cabbagedad touched upon, different things for different kids. If we can get to know our players and what they will respond to individually, now we are really digging deep...the art of coaching. 

I very much like the ideas about written responses and feel that they might be effective in my situation with small numbers and all. I've been thinking i will have my captains do stuff like that regularly anyways. Its funny, because last year i had a situation where i had a freshmen make a egocentric error. good player, just trying to be a hero and spark a rally by stealing a base without a sign when we are down by 5 in the last inning, best catcher in our division (the reason that i didnt send him) threw him out by a mile...made our whole team look foolish. a real morale buster. I had found some articles online about mental toughness and playing your role on the team and such. Told him he was to read the articles and write me a little response about what he had learned. Kid got all flustered about it and went to the principal (real hot headed freshmen kid). our principal was also our AD at the time (highly ineffective at both, she is no longer in the school after 1 year) she called me into her office and overruled me right in front of the kid. said that he didn't have to do it and i would play him in the next game. i was in awe, didnt know what to say. I thought i had found a really good way to handle it and make him not have to miss time. She was basically afraid of his parents, but had no problem laying into me since i was a first year teacher/coach at the time....man am i glad to have a new principal and AD both this year! former gym teacher/coach too, so he knows whats up.

and the idea of the kid getting hurt taking hot grounders did cross my mind. I wouldn't do it. I was just throwing ideas out there to be discussed. 

From my own limited experience with baseball (my kid is 12) I would have to say that you as the coachhave to be consistent.  Make your rules and expectations known and stick to them, regardless of the W/L.

The biggest let down I ever had (as a parent) from a coach was me telling him my 11 year old didn't turn in 3 pieces of homework in one class in one week and can you please sit him for Friday nights game so he can watch in full uniform from the bench...his response was to bargain...what about 3 innings instead of 6, I just can't afford to sit him for that long".  We left that team the following year and joined a team where the coach said his number one priority was to play the best competition we could and to teach these boys how to play true baseball and we might not win a single trophy all year, but the boys will learn.

As a High School coach you are their teacher, so teach...even if it means sitting the 2 stars of the team on the same night and make it known to them WHY they are sitting..I think the rest of the team will give them a good deal of grief, and if that doesn't make them feel bad for letting down their team then you are probably better off without those players.

I'm have a little different take on it.  To me, neither of the situations you presented are cause for a "punishment" per se.  Every bad action doesn't need some type of formal punishment.  A word or two at the team meeting after the game is all it should call for.  Trying to do more than that, I think will just lead to inconsistency and trouble.  Save the formal punishments for significant violations of team rules, not personality traits. 

Please tell me that the hot headed freshman kid is no longer in your program.

On second thought, you mentioned your school is small. Is it a small private school?  Does fear of losing a paying $tudent enter the equation?  If so, then being realistic I can see why you're exploring ways of disciplining that don't involve benching.

Great post and thread!  Here's my $.02 on the topic.  

I have been on both ends of the spectrum.  I was the punishment coach when I first started.  I was 23 years old when I took over as a head coach, and to use a line from Bull Durham, I needed to "announce my presence with authority."  

I had very specific punishments set up for every imaginable scenario that may happen. My code of conduct really amounted to a punishment schedule, as I had thought of almost everything a player could do wrong, and had a very specific punishment for it.  I had lots of discipline issues, many of them arose from resentment that was created by running kids when they made mistakes off the field, and suspending them for any violation (according to my conduct policy).  I was a yeller and screamer because I didn't know any other way to deal with the kids or how to correct their behavior in a positive manner.  

Fast forward 12 years, and I am a completely different coach.  My code of conduct is very vague, allows for flexibility, and consists of standards to be lived up to, not rules to be broken.  We do not use conditioning as punishment, and only take away playing time (in the form of suspension) in the most extreme cases.   

So how do I discipline?  I talk to kids.  When something goes wrong, I take the time to sit down with them, find out what is happening, and find out what we can do to correct the behavior.  I guess my main for of discipline is conversation.  

The change in discipline in my program has be tremendous.  We have fewer problems with behavior on the field, we have fewer problems with behavior in the classroom, we have fewer problems with kids being late to practice, and we have a much more positive vibe in our program.  I get emails, texts, and visits from our alumni over the past 6 years all the time.  I hardly hear anything from the players in my first 6 years when I coached out of fear.  

I have several of my former players come back to work out camps in the winter and summer.  This past summer, one of them told me that I was the most "terrifying" coach he had ever had.  I asked him why... I never yelled at you, I didn't punish you with conditioning.  Why were you "scared" of me?  He told me that he didn't want to disappoint me or the team.   That's when I knew my discipline philosophy was working.  He wasn't terrified of me as a person, he was terrified of letting me and his teammates down. 

From my experience, punishments can change behavior in the short term.  If you want a behavior to stop, sitting a kid for a game, or running them after practice can stop the behavior.  But I have found that makes the athlete's main focus avoiding punishment.  I want my players to strive for excellence, and to know that if they make mistakes myself and our coaching staff will be there to help them.  I'm working with 15-18 year old kids, they are far from a finished product. 

This seems "soft" to many, and when it is first implemented, it can be rough.  Running a kid or sitting them takes care of the problem quickly.  Developing a program on mutual respect, takes a lot more time and is more difficult for the coach.  You have to be confident in your abilities, and at times, you will feel helpless.

I know this type of discipline isn't for everyone, but I am a much happier coach, the players get a better experience in our program, and the program has become more about the player than me.  

If you are interested in my code of conduct, let me know and I will send a copy to you.  We also have one for coaches and parents.  

Freddy, we are not private, just very rural and small. about 120 kids in the high school (20-30 per grade level.) In the case of this freshmen, he has a very involved family, plays all sports, and his mother substitutes and volunteers at the school. so a pretty upstanding family in a community with limited resources. In some sports, particularly at the middle school level, we may or may not even have a team from year to year. in that case, if we have a couple really motivated kids, they may join up on the team of the next school in our district (15 miles away, this kid had done that for soccer.) last year I had 13 kids join the team. and i ended up losing 1 big contributor to other issues in school, but ive been in touch and making sure he is on track for this year. these kids come from a community so small that they have never actually had to try out for a sport, they just join the team. that freshmen kid is a sophomore now and is looking much better in the other sports ive seen him play since, I'm hoping for a much different look from this kid this year. I know they will be getting a much better look from me. I've thought about sitting him down and talking about how what our old principal did was wrong, but I dont think i will. i think i will present a similar situation at our parent night this year and explain the actions i will take and why so everyone knows up front and i dont have to dig up ancient history or point fingers. 

BC, this is exactly the type of thing im talking about! as you mentioned, benching can nip it in the bud in the short run, but, in this day and age, can build resentment and tear down what is already a really small, fragile team. I'm from this town, I teach in this school, and i plan on being a fixture here (our school is notorious for being somewhat of a revolving door for teachers fresh out of college, kids have had a different basketball coach for the last 5 consecutive years.) I want to really build a strong program and lasting relationships with the kids. it seems like thats exactly what you have done. running and benching shows that you wont tolerate it, i want to show that, as well as the fact that i care and have stock in the kids. I'd be happy to have a copy of your code of conduct! thanks!

however, to play devils advocate BC... is your team more successful in the W category now than it was when you coached with fear?

Golfman, i think that the general consensus among most coaches is that after a tough loss you should mostly just talk about the little things you did succeed with in the game and try to reinforce the positives and not send everyone home on any worse of a note than the loss itself. It is certainly not a good time to call out individuals..learned that one the hard way. Thank goodness it was a resilient kid.

Personality traits are a part of the game, they can be contagious, and can be a blessing or a curse depending on the trait and the player. these need to be coached and reinforced just as much (sometimes more) as any part of the game. you don't think that pitchers need coaching with their composure on the mound, for instance? A freshmen making an executive decision to try and steal in a textbook bad situation without a sign is certainly a violation of team rules. I think we can all agree on that.  

Thanks again everyone.

I've been so fortunate to have coached with some outstanding coaches.  Here is how one of them would approach this.  He call the team together to talk about being a teammate and how good teammates benefit teams and how bad teammates tear teams down.  Then, he say that he knows of a certain situation where "this was said."  ...  Then, he call out the name of the offender and say in front of everyone there that he knows that this player would not do this (even though he knew he did) and then say that he knows that because this player wants to be a good teammate and understands that bad teammates would be punished for these actions.  Before very much of this coach addressing the issue, everyone would know that the coach is talking to that player in front of all of them.  Then, he'd wrap things up by stating what good teammates do.  This particular coach would then give the player some time to think about it and come up to talk about the matter.  If that player didn't come up in x amount of time, the coach would then talk to the player in private. 

I would see this coach do this and was amazed at how effective it was. 

I see the kid stealing as a mental error made by a "rookie" not a violation of team rules.  I'd be more concerned that he made his mistake at 100 mph and didn't hesitate.  On the field mistakes should not be "punishable."  They should be learning experiences.  If you try to control every little thing, you set yourself up for bad situations. 

An I do think pitchers need coaching about composure on the mound.  But when they loose that composure is that a time for "punishment" or coaching? 

Being a good teammate works both ways.  If a kid makes an error he needs to own up to it.  His teammates don't need to get down on him, but if the pitcher gives him "that look" he should accept that look.  But then the pitcher needs to go back him up.  It takes a lot of conversation to instill good teammate characteristics in growing boys.  I don't think you can punish you way to being a good teammate. 

if it was a case if a misinterpreted sign, (oops, i thought you gave me the steal sign) i would see where your going. mental error, and i do have a seperate way of handling that. but in this situation, its not. its a case of a kid trying to take the game into his own hands and thinking he knows better than his own coach. I do have kids on my team who have the green light and we all know who they are. this kid was not one of them. this was not "an honest mistake" this was a disciplinary issue. you cant let something like that fester or everybody on the team will try it next game. i try to give my kids the benefit of the doubt: "hey, maybe he noticed something in the kids delivery that gave him a couple extra steps." but this was not a case of that either. The kid was taking a huge lead and the pitcher had thrown over 2 times in a row before making a pitch. The kid came back to the bag standing up both times (even though i told him to slide) and was barely safe both times. and then he had the nerve to run first pitch with no sign on the best catcher in our division.

i see what you mean about on the field mistakes and punishment, and i agree. But, there is a difference between a honest mistake and a disciplinary/teammate issue. 

its a case of a kid trying to take the game into his own hands and thinking he knows better than his own coach. ... this was not "an honest mistake" .... The kid was taking a huge lead .... he had the nerve to run first pitch with no sign on the best catcher in our division.

Coach,

At a school that had enough players on the roster, the inexcusable act of that snot-nosed freshman (on a varsity team, unbelievable) would have landed him so far into the dog house that he'd still be looking for the way out, even on a team with a "soft" coach.

The way I see it, you have a specific problem:  How do you discipline inexcusable, unpardonable behavior when you have so few players you can't afford to alienate the wrong-doer? 

Gentlemen-

I am usually a passive observer of HSBBWeb, and I get involved on a few occasions.  I can honestly say this is one of my favorite threads.  Discussions like this are what make us all better coaches.  Kudos to all involved!!!

Coach Z- Your question on the Ws... it's not even close the difference in our on field performance (which I do not measure in wins alone).  We play a much better schedule than we did, we have moved up an enrollment class and are having much more post season success. 

I think this is because of a number of things, and I don't think it is all because of my discipline philosophy.  I was fortunate to take over a solid program, so I wasn't rebuilding anything, more like installing my philosophy and developing a program instead of just a varsity team.  

The one very positive side effect I believe has taken place with this philosophy is that my players handle pressure situations better.  Don't get me wrong, the kids still feel pressure, get nervous, and are 15-18 year old kids just like every  other 15-18 year old kid.  I just think they don't have the fear of me jumping down their throat if they make mistakes.  They know that it will be handled within the team, or with them individually.  I will not air them out during a game, in the papers, or in public in any way.  They are not afraid to make mistakes. 

As far as the one individual kid who is being disrespectful, I don't think you will change him right away.  He's probably been doing whatever he wants for years being the big fish in a small pond.  I would make your goal with him long term, not short term.  If you're in it for the long haul, you have 4 years with him.  Maybe the goal should be to help him mature and judge if it worked or not when he is a Jr. and Sr. 

If you're able to develop a program on mutual respect that kids really want to be a part of, when a similar kid comes around in another 5 years, you will have developed your program to the point when you can say "That's not the way we do things at this level.  Here's what you need to work on to be ready to play with us.  For now, work on those things on the JV/Freshmen level."  

DM me your email and I'll send you those Codes of conduct.  

CoachB- I always enjoy your comments, and always greatly respect your opinions.  I think the way that the coach handled those situations is awesome.  Nobody got belittled, nobody was run to make the coach feel better, he didn't blow his top in a self serving rant.  Instead he got is point across in a much more powerful way.  I would bet those kids played their hearts out for those coach because they wanted to, not because he wanted them too.  Had a similar situation down your way a few years back that let to us practicing reacting to striking out, making errors, and losing games in the lobby of the Super 8 in Collinsville.  Man, you should have seen some of the looks we got!

I'll leave you all with this thought:  I almost resigned my coaching position a few years ago after a horrible post season loss.  We had just put up 48 runs on 3 of the best big school teams in the state, then got 2 hit shut out by a sophomore with 4 varsity innings in the first round (still can't figure out why he was starting that game... but kudos for that decision).  I really thought we had the chance to win it all that year, and we got bounce in the first round.  I was mowing my lawn in the summer about 5 weeks later it was still eating me up inside.  That's when I realized that I couldn't let my happiness and feelings of self worth ride on the performance of 15-18 year old kids.  All I could do was try to influence their lives in a positive manner as best I could, put them in situations to succeed, teach them the game of baseball, and sit back and enjoy the ride.  Some days we would win, sometimes the quality team in the other dugout would win, but as long as those things happened, it was a successful day.  

I didn't have a chance to respond last night but wish I were in the Super 8 to see your "practice."  You were a stones throw away.  If you get back in the area, let me know.  I would love to see your team play. 

BCRockets, I know you said you don't jump on here much. but what you said really hits home with me. You obviously have great experiences and would love to see you share that often. 

Thanks for the kind words.  I'll make it a point to jump in a bit more.  

Coach B- 

We used to come down to that area until three years ago when STL got 15 inches of snow the day before we were supposed to play.  We have since taken our spring trip to warmer pastures, but always enjoyed the competition and hospitality of the area.  If something ever happens and we can't take a big trip, we will be back in that area and the competition is good, and the people are even better.