purposed pitch count policy

These seem to be relatively strict, especially for varsity.  Have seen states where limits are based on grade (9th/10th versus 11th/12th).  Rest period seems healthy.  Not sure I follow the logic about the 51 pitches in two days as the 26-50 rule would seem to apply (would have to throw 26+ pitches that second day to reach 51 anyhow).  Maybe a days rest if a kid throws any number on back to back days.  Good definition of calendar day which makes it easy (no worry about start times).  Depending on how a team schedules games including makeup games, the 50 limit with one day of rest could allow a pitcher to throw 250 pitches over the span of two weekends, but I guess you have to hope good sense prevails at some point.

Whose rules are these?

thought the same thing about the 51 pitch thing....doesn't seem necessary as the 26-50 rule would cover it....can't get to 51 without throwing 26 at least one of the two days

1. Pitch Smart recommends 4 calendar days of rest for 76 or more pitches.  This proposal does not require 4 days until you hit 101.  This rule shortchanges kids on needed rest, all so coaches can have them available twice in one week.

2. This appears to be a "daily" rule, rather than a game/appearance rule.  As such, it allows a pitcher to throw in multiple games on the same day, subject to the 110+ limitation.

3.  It sets a 110 limit for ALL kids on Varsity.  Pitch Smart sets a limit of 110 for 17-18's, and 95 for 15-16's.

4.  This rule would also allow all kids below varsity, even 7th and 8th graders, to throw 110+ pitches per day.

5.  This rule would allow a kid to throw 25 pitches, or less, per day, for an unlimited number of consecutive days.  The 25 pitch cutoff is actually better than the 30 recommended by Pitch SMart.  BUt, there should be a limit on the number of consecutive days a kid can pitch.

Not the worst rule I have seen, but nowhere close to the best.

MTH posted:

1. Pitch Smart recommends 4 calendar days of rest for 76 or more pitches.  This proposal does not require 4 days until you hit 101.  This rule shortchanges kids on needed rest, all so coaches can have them available twice in one week.

This^^^^^

Most teams around here play M-W-F, especially once region play starts.  Under these rules (which are similar, if not identical to what was adopted in Georgia for next year) a coach can get by with two starters as long as he keeps them under 100 pitches, so each of them could throw almost 300 pitches over two weeks.

I would like to see one additional provision added which all of these seem to overlook (and which I observed happen last season in a game).

If a pitcher reaches or exceeds any of the mandatory rest limitation in a GAME, then once they are removed as pitcher, they may not be reinserted as a pitcher for that game.

Specific example was a starting pitcher throwing 92 pitches over 6.1 innings.  He was relieved as pitcher and moved to a position.  He was reinserted as pitcher in the 10th inning of an extra inning game.  So after throwing 92 pitches, he plays a position for 3 innings, then back on the mound.  Under these rules, as written, nothing would prevent this from occurring and that pitcher would still have 18 pitches allowed before reaching his 110 daily limit.  Exactly what MTH touches on in his second point in his post above.

If they were to add some provision that a pitcher exceeding 30 pitches in any one game cannot re-enter that game (but would be allowed to appear in a subsequent game that same day).  Additionally, there should be some daily limit across multiple games in the same day (i.e, 75 pitches?) so that a pitcher who threw 38 pitches in G1 of a doubleheader could throw up to 27 pitches max in G2. All other daily rules would apply.

Bumstead is correct, but this changes come playoffs when you can play three games (DH on day 1, if needed game on day 2) in the best of three format.

The Georgia rule is even worse.  In Georgia, the most rest required in any situation is 3 days.  

The best rule I have come across thus far is South Carolina's.  

http://asmiforum.proboards.com...tch-count-rest-rules

Is there some provision for penalty elsewhere or does it need to be included in the rule?

MTH posted:

The Georgia rule is even worse.  In Georgia, the most rest required in any situation is 3 days.  

The best rule I have come across thus far is South Carolina's.  

http://asmiforum.proboards.com...tch-count-rest-rules

Speaking of Georgia, anyone seen the age limitations for high school athletics?  Says you cannot turn 19 before May 1st preceding the year of participation.  I'd hate to be in the state baseball finals and have to face some 20 year old on the mound.

That said, Georgia does have some nice structure to their rules (limits may be a little too high).  It does have a limit on consecutive games (whether same day of back to back days) - single day limit is 35 and two day limit would be 60.  120 pitch limit specifically for 3 game playoff series which sounds like they don't use the double header approach, but maybe Thursday, Friday, Saturday.  Good format to follow with maybe some tightening of limits to improve.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

MTH posted:

The Georgia rule is even worse.  In Georgia, the most rest required in any situation is 3 days.  

The best rule I have come across thus far is South Carolina's.  

http://asmiforum.proboards.com...tch-count-rest-rules

Speaking of Georgia, anyone seen the age limitations for high school athletics?  Says you cannot turn 19 before May 1st preceding the year of participation.  I'd hate to be in the state baseball finals and have to face some 20 year old on the mound.

But he'd only be 20 for a couple of weeks of competition, assuming his team is in the playoffs.  School in GA ends (graduates) in May and the baseball Finals are right around the same time.  Typically a team or two across classes reaching the finals will need to push the series out a day or two to accommodate the seniors graduation ceremony.  So a senior turning 19 in May 5th of 2016 would turn 20 on 5/5/17 and the finals will usually be played around 5/25 that same month.

NUKE83 - you are correct, but even an old 19 yo would be something.  Mine will end his high school career while still 17 yo even if they go to the state finals.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

NUKE83 - you are correct, but even an old 19 yo would be something.  Mine will end his high school career while still 17 yo even if they go to the state finals.

My oldest was in a similar boat with his May birthday.  Didn't turn 18 until the 5th, so he was 17 until the last three weeks of school (and baseball).  I don't recall ever facing anyone (or having anyone on our teams) that was 20 at any point their senior year.  I'm sure it happens, but it is definitely an outlier.  

But back to pitch counts . . . to your earlier comment, GA does use doubleheader in playoffs.  Day 1 is doubleheader and Day 2 is the if needed game.  Each round is a best of three series.

Nuke83 posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

NUKE83 - you are correct, but even an old 19 yo would be something.  Mine will end his high school career while still 17 yo even if they go to the state finals.

My oldest was in a similar boat with his May birthday.  Didn't turn 18 until the 5th, so he was 17 until the last three weeks of school (and baseball).  I don't recall ever facing anyone (or having anyone on our teams) that was 20 at any point their senior year.  I'm sure it happens, but it is definitely an outlier.  

But back to pitch counts . . . to your earlier comment, GA does use doubleheader in playoffs.  Day 1 is doubleheader and Day 2 is the if needed game.  Each round is a best of three series.

I think I understand the playoff "rule" - I'm guessing it is an exception to the 60 pitch maximum over consecutive games?  Would that be correct?

During the State Playoffs, there is an additional restriction of limiting a pitcher to 120 pitches max for the duration of the three game series.  I don't believe that it supersedes any of the individual day's rest rules, but it isn't clear in anything I've read.  The rule does stipulate that the 120 limit could be extended should weather extend the series, but it doesn't stipulate by how much, when, or who determines an extension, it just states that a pitcher is limited to 120 pitches over the three game series.

Apologies to the Virginia Forum for hijacking with Georgia pitch count discussion.  I'll bow out.

I don't like the last part about use of GameChanger.  I have followed many games on GC and it's a definite "garbage in, garbage out" situation.  Also I think it is inappropriate for VHSL to be funneling business to a particular vendor.

To me it's enough to require that some reasonable means be used to assure accuracy, to encourage both teams to compare notes after each inning perhaps, and to require that all head coaches maintain all records for VHSL inspection upon demand.

Have these rules been adopted and put in place for VHSL? Its website still carries the old rules.

Its the initial proposal, I was told they will revisit it after the feedback and make it official at a later date.