Question: How much should experience count?

The best Mexican food is in Mexico

But, back to the topic at hand. I feel the best player should play....period. But what is the best player...it's a mixture of talent and experience.

And, if a Freshman came up today and was a better player (son is a JR), then so be it. I've always told my son to not just look at the upper classmen for your competition for a starting spot, but look behind you as well.

quote:

Seniority playing time destroys competition and drive. And it destroys teams.

That is a fact. And, rarely noted here.

A great thread.

A collection of college pops (and a mom, too) perspectives quite interesting.

And recalled seeing my freshman son inserted into games when he had a chance to succeed........

And when he did, recalled seeing my fresman son inserted into games in more difficult situations that he had a chance to succeed.......

And recalled learning how much pressure my son was under to perform as a hs freshman and was relieved to see the college coach easing my college freshman into his new role..........

Good post FO.

JBB,
This has been a great thread.

FO,
I do believe there were more than one mom who posted.

Ask any player who dominated in HS just how much he realizes he needs to learn when he gets to college or minor league.

With deepest and sincerest apologies to those "other" moms.

11. Thou shalt read the entire thread before posting.

It still comes right down to what the Coach thinks.
He's the one that make the final decisions and what he decides is what the players/parents need to respect.

The parents in the background talking about what should be are should not be will ruin a Teams Chemistry as quick as any thing else.

quote:
Originally posted by rbinaz:
...If the underclassman is as good as...the upperclassman you have to play him.

quote:

Really? Is your son a junior or senior? If so, will you feel that way if displaced by a freshman? Hmmm.

I'm not speaking as a dad, but my oldest is a freshman.
I'm speaking as someone who attends over 100 HS games per year and at least that many more in the "off season".
I know its callous, and I also realize that some day my own kid may be a victim of the philososphy.
Still, if you want to do what's best for the program you have to develop the players who can develop the furthest.
That means that all other things being equal,you play the kids with the highest ceiling regardless of age.
Incidentally, my own son's school does not adhere to this philosophy.

Think it's a combination....remember when my son was a freshman and first called up to varsity to DH.....took one look at him at his first at bat..... and knew.....he needed more at bats!

.......if the Coach is willing to work with the young kids.....until they gain that experience/confidence....and I think it's one in the same.......then the more talented should always play....otherwise seniority can lead to complacency...and that won't win ballgames.

When I say you play the best player I mean the best player. I didnt say the most talented player is always the best option or the one with or without the most experience. Sometimes a kid is more talented but his lack of experience makes the other kid the best option if he performs at a higher level. And sometimes there are kids with tons of experience that are not the best option because the less experienced kid is better and performs at a better level. If you just put the kids on the field with the most experience and dont base it on ability to perform you are not doing your job as a coach. And that is to put the 9 guys on the field that give you the best opportunity to win. My oldest was a sr last year he played very very little. He was not the best option even though he was a sr. There are fresh sophs that play alot of competitive baseball now. They have been in alot of pressure situations and have played at a much higher level than they used to coming into HS. There is one way to ensure that you play and it has nothing to do with seniority. Be the best option.

rbinaz - I think you raise some interesting points...some that I at one time probably agreed with.

But I'll use my own son as an example again and go back to HS. As a freshman, that same coach told me that he could "really help the varsity, but he's a freshman and I don't put freshman on varsity." Now again, at the time I really resented that...thought the guy was an idiot to be brutally honest. I think history has played out that at his HS, he clearly had the highest ceiling, as you say.

But as I look back and think about it much more objectively now...he probably shouldn't have played varsity. First, he wouldn't have played all the time even though he was better than most and 'had the highest ceiling.' On JV, he played nearly all the time...got used to HS ball...learned how to deal with a difficult coach (i.e matured a bit)...had a ton of success...and really, from that point forward really accelerated.

Maybe he was lucky to survive it? I don't know. I also think that the 'idiot' coach was a little wiser than I gave him credit for at the time...because the next year he didn't play as much 3B when he was on varsity as he would have liked...but he was the ace of their pitching staff. Nothing was really harmed that I can tell...and that HS team skyrocketed to the top of their league for the first time in 15 years all while my son developed at a very reasonable pace.

Maybe what I'm saying is that 'highest ceiling' doesn't translate to current maturity, effectiveness, savvy, field smarts, etc... It really only means that more might get achieved over time. Thats what happened and I cannot argue with the result either for him or his HS team, over time.

I can also tell you that in college, "highest ceiling" doesn't rate as high as you might think...its much more about current results. Win baby, just win!

Coach May....thank you for the clarification.....it is appreciated and certainly does shed light on the most talented versus the best......for those who may have been confused.....and if I understand correctly.....talent does not mean the best unless you throw in experience and couple it with a good dose of pressure. Thanks again....

Forgot to add...... stir and shake lightly....

What do you do if both players are very good? Do you sit the older player if the younger is a bit better, but they are both very good?

Reading all these posts really makes you think, especially about our own particular situation.

Last year my son was a soph. in HS. He was a starter from day one and did really well. A Sr. was trying to make the transition from catcher to 2nd base. After about 8 games, and just prior to the start of league, it was evident that the Sr. was not going to cut it at 2nd. He was moved to the outfield, in my sons spot. I was OK with it, despite my dissappointment. I do not think anyone involved did not think that my son has a higher ceiling then the Sr.. But this kid had earned the right through hard work and was a team leader. He was a good hitter and was much better suited to the outfield.

My son got his occaisional reps and went down to JV for a short time to get some innings in on the mound. He was called back up in time to pitch in the league clinching game (over JBB's son's alma mater) and even started in the field in one of the playoff games. The team made it to the sectional finals.

I think that ultimately all the right calls were made. This year my son will start and probably be the #2 guy on the hill.

In High School ball I think that a upperclassman deserves the benefit of the doubt in competition with underclassman. This assumes that the players in question are of similar value to the team at that place in time.

By the way, the coach had started 3 soph's and a freshman the previous year.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Traveldad:
My son was asked to play this past fall with the high school (as an 8th grader) in a wood bat league. he was called to pitch the bottom of the 7th inning with us winning 1-0. First batter...ground out to third. Second batter...pop up to the catcher. Third batter...error on third baseman. Attempted steal...ball goes into center, runner to third. next batter...fastball fouled straight back, strike one. fastball fouled straight back, strike two. Kid shakes off the sign. Kid shakes off the next sign and calls the catcher to the mound (a junior). Fastball three inches inside, ball one. Fastball 6 inches inside, ball two. Curveball outside (great stop by catcher), ball three. Changeup (his,breaks hard down and in to righty), strike three!!

My point is experience is not solely determined by age...IMO. We're thankful now that his travel and Jr. high coach have put him in these situations so that now he has situational knowledge and "moxey" to succeed against older players.

TravelDad, I hope you will not mind my using your example to make a point about talent and experience. When players get to a college like Justbb's and beyond that, every player is hugely talented. Coaches have to find critical differences that may not be necessary in high school/travel ball.
I think your post is really important because it readily demonstrates my view of the difference between talent and experience. Your son's talent got that final out. However, as he progresses, I think there is a better than 50/50 chance the drive home would be spent talking about the first and second fastball, not the 3rd strike. The reason: in college, a talented, experienced hitter is not going to miss that second fastball. Might miss the first, but the way you describe it, the experienced pitcher would not have thrown the second fastball and if he did, he would likely pay the price. Good college hitters do not miss that second fastball.

quote:

Infieldad, Great point...and noted as such. I showed this response to the kid and he said that "dude" is right! LOL
So now you are officially a DUDE, congrats. For what it's worth, he knew the 2nd FB was not a good idea but felt reluctant to shake off his catcher. When he got the sign for another FB he knew to call the catcher in for a talk and game plan it.

Randy Johnson? WOW, Do tell more.

"Dude?"
Wonder if I can change/should change my user name? "Dude!" It has a certain ring to it. I like it. Tell your son thanks. Feels good to be a "Dude."
Wonder if I can use it to avoid taking out the trash when I get home tonight?

"In High School ball I think that a upperclassman deserves the benefit of the doubt in competition with underclassman. This assumes that the players in question are of similar value to the team at that place in time."

Dooer,
You might find this to be the case in college as well.

Let’s not combine age, tenure, talent, maturity and experience into one. They are all different but most seem to be considered at the high school level. In my opinion talent will always be the major factor in determining the makeup of a team but I have seen some minor adjustment made to high school rosters because of some of the other factors. In the major college conferences you tend to see talent become more of a factor with tenure and age becoming non factors. Maturity and experience are only a factor in college if they equate to wins. I think that is the way it should be…. I say play the best and set the rest! Baseball is competition. Let’s not compromise competitiveness by substituting it with non-baseball factors like age and tenure. Let me throw something else at you. I have very little experience as a minor leaguers dad but in my short time it seems as if there is another factor that comes into play in the minors. The player’s actual “worth” (as measured in dollars invested or the round he was drafted in), seems to be a factor into opportunities presented to him. Is this fair? I guess it depend on your perspective....
Fungo

So, in professional baseball, it isn't only about the talent either. Anybody remember Matt White?

06catcherdad,
I would say talent and worth parallel each other so you really can’t say they don’t have the best “talent” on the field, but they don’t always have the best “producers” on the field. Minor leaguers don’t always produce as expected while some produce better than expected ... but it seems as if they are a high enough draft pick they will be on the field. They may be one of the club's top round picks, batting .120 and playing, while the 40th rounder may be batting .300 and find himself watching from the dugout. Matt White the LHP??
Fungo

Fungo, As your son continues his professional career I think he'll be able to relate more stories about higher round guys(top picks) given every opportunity to succeed(fail) over the
lower picks. It's been that way since the draft began in 1965.

Doesn't mean the bottom half picks won't make it-it does happen(Piazza, Zack-although he wasn't real low)-it's just much more difficult for those guys.

Professional ball in the minors is not about being fair, it's about developing players to reach the "potential" that scouts perceived them to have in their evaluations before the draft. I've sat in locker rooms with teammates packing their bags after being released and wondering, with tears in their eyes, why? One player, for three years, averaged over .300 BA.
The other player in his position was barely at .200 but was drafted in the second round.
(BTW no matter how much the second player was "pushed" he never made it).

IMO the best players should play in HS and college, but like it or not, minor league baseball
is about development and a lot of minor league GM's can tell their own stories about players
being plucked off their teams in the middle of pennant races because the ML team felt it was
time for that player to move to the next level.

It would be nice to know that all draftees are explained this situation before they sign, and
I believe a lot of good scouts probably do just that.

Moc1

I think most kids who get drafted know the story --the huge bonus babies get the bigger shot because of the "investment"-- if you sign for "peanuts" you have to fight the extreme odds just to get playing time-- then if a player gets on the wrong side of whomever his goose is cooked.

My own son knew the game--he could have signed as a free agent out of college but he knew the odds-- he took the job he had waiting because as he said to me "I won't last but a year or two but at least I know they wanted to sign me and give me a shot. I am taking the job that has been offered to me"

Moc --in the real world there is no obligation for anyone to explain anything to the draftees--they should know the deal on their own especially if they played college ball and saw the lay of the land

TR-since you mention your son and the informed decision he made about professional baseball-do you think it might have helped to have a father who has been intimately involved in baseball for a number of years?

In the real world "most" parents have very little knowledge of the inner workings of professional baseball. Of course there is NO obligation to explain anything to the draftees but wouldn't you think it would be an ethical thing to do?

Also, not all draftees are out of college, as you know. At a Braves predraft meeting a few years ago this subject was discussed so some teams do feel it is worthwhile to be up front about it.

Moc1

I think he got the picture while watching his teammates over the 5 years of college, he was a redshirt freshman, get drafted or sign as free agents and then cut--even seeing his roomie,who had a fantastic junior year, not get drafted after being in the Top 20 hitters in Division I and having a 28 game hitting streak.

Perhaps my input helped but he learned most of it on his own in the "school of hard knocks" so to speak. I give him 99% of the credit

I don't think players really relate dollars to playing time in the minors...Some may but not the majority. This play for pay is foreign to them. This is not a job, but a dream and a passion. Sure I could set my son down in a classroom and go over the economic side of professional baseball and I’m sure he would understand why the top rounds are given more chances. But when they step on the field there are no dollar signs on the players’ backs. These players are driven by desire and emotion and their efforts have little to do with money. (Money is a non-factor, unless they run out). I can’t help but think this is more pronounced at the high school level. I doubt if there are many high school players that can fathom how little impact $200,000.00 will have on their lives. When my son was drafted out of high school I had to sit down with him and together we spent his signing bonus (on paper). He was surprised that he could not fulfill all his long list of fantasies on $200,000. Even in college many of these baseball players majored in baseball, not economics.
Fungo

Very enjoyable thread.

After passing 12 year old level, I became more keenly aware of the myrida of subtle transitions from age group to age group, select to high school and now am priviledged to continue to observe the transition from college and the passage of college freshman and maybe to a starter.

And that is what this thread reminds me of and of course those ahead continue to provide insight to the next level....that I have learned cannot be fully grasped until you have beenthere. (Yow, I spelled it that way on purpose.)

I have also learned to appreciate, respect, and enjoy the differences in the various levels, the select vs. high school, high school vs. college vs. D1, D1 vs. D2 vs. D3, D1 vs. the minors, most significantly the external factors that influece those various levels. Such as, the talent pool for high school vs. select, number of games in high school vs. select, the number of college games, talent pool for college, scholarship impact, and impact of players pay in the minors, selects goal to win the weekend tournament or the AAU Natinoal tournament, the high school district championship or state, contrasted with the college path's to Omaha, and then the minors as a development concept first with an indirect focus to the parent MLB team. The transition of players off the team during a minor league playoff to the major league team and the summer select team "blue chippers" that need to make showcase appearances in spite of their "responsibilities"

At this place and time there are two things that stick out in this thread to me.

Here they are.

quote:

in college, a talented, experienced hitter is not going to miss that second fastball.

quote:

Good college hitters do not miss that second fastball.

quote:

Even in college many of these baseball players majored in baseball, not economics.

Yes, I know that three, but if you read it it really is two.

PLAY BALL!

I am coming at the issue of the draft, minor leagues and professional baseball closer to the experience of TR. While our son was not a free agent, we did not plan his financial future based on his barely 4 digit bonus.
From what ours has said, there is an extensive mini-camp orientation once you have signed. Part of that is instruction in what it means to be a "professional." From what we heard, this is more how to go about being a baseball player, what is expected of you and how "you" the player must manage those issues. Not a lot of rules per se. It is much different than college.
The one thing our son has repeatedly expressed about this process is that he has to control the things in his control. He has to prepare himself everyday and has to be prepared to play his best everyday. Many of those days he prepared himself...and didn't play. The why was obvious to him and it was draft position and projection/prospect status within the organization. He could not control either. So he had to prepare himself everyday until his chance came and when that arrived, he had to be ready and had to produce.
Professional baseball did teach him what was expected. He was to show up everyday fully prepared to perform at his best. Organizational decisions on playing time are not in your control. You pay attention and are aware of them, but you cannot ever let them affect your mental and physical preparation. If you are a lower pick, you know you don't get the same opportunties that higher picks and "prospects" receive. You are aware of it, you learn to understand it, you know you cannot change it. You can only change the organizations view by handling yourself as a professional, by showing up everyday ready and prepared to play, and then by producing everytime you get a chance. Being affected by things you cannot control in minor league baseball is a recipe for failure. Managing the items within your control is not always going to be successful when you are drafted where he was. But it eliminates a lot, keeps you focused, and, from what we have learned, seemed to get him "recognition" and onto the radar. It is a mental discipline I admire tremendously because, for the most part, not being affected by what goes on around you and controlloing only what you can is a discipline pretty foreign to me.

Infielddad,
Very good post with a lot of wisdom!


FO states:
"And that is what this thread reminds me of and of course those ahead continue to provide insight to the next level....that I have learned cannot be fully grasped until you have beenthere. (Yow, I spelled it that way on purpose.)"

Infieldad

Good attitude for him or anyone. Lots of good players get blocked bumping on the ceiling. There are only 700+ jobs up there. Talent, hard work and a little luck is a nice combination.

I have always maintained that the pitcher's mom should be able to write the line-up card...

I watched a hs frosh get called up to Varisty when my son was on the mound his senior year. The hoopla that went on in the stands was just unbelievable, as this frosh was also penciled in the 4 spot....
His first varsity at bat came with the bases loaded and he promptly deliverd a fastball to the base of our LF wall. Tripled to drive in three. Won the game. Upperclass parents in an uproar, since this boy took away an oppotunity for some jr and sr benchplayers.

I said to the Coach after the game that any time he wanted to field this team behind my son he had my blessings...LOL

I didn't look at what years these boys were.
I was looking at what at what they could produce.

quote:

'You don't have to be a great player to play in the major leagues, you've got to be a good one every day.'

Thanks, infielddad. My forward looking observations make me think that is true, not previously knowing how to say or think that.

And provides me with the courage to keep encouraging my son...........

quote:

I watched a hs frosh get called up to Varisty when my son was on the mound his senior year. The hoopla that went on in the stands was just unbelievable, as this frosh was also penciled in the 4 spot....
His first varsity at bat came with the bases loaded and he promptly deliverd a fastball to the base of our LF wall. Tripled to drive in three. Won the game. Upperclass parents in an uproar, since this boy took away an oppotunity for some jr and sr benchplayers.

I was AT THAT GAME!..........................

quote:

Originally posted by Chill:
I have always maintained that the pitcher's mom should be able to write the line-up card...


I said to the Coach after the game that any time he wanted to field this team behind my son he had my blessings...LOL

I didn't look at what years these boys were.
I was looking at what at what they could produce.

Chill - Well said!