QUESTION

Baserunning is the most undercoached and or poorly coached aspect of the game in my opinion. What I have found is the best base runners at the high school level tend to be the players that are not fast and understand that their lack of speed means they must be very good at it. So they tend to work at it more and make sure they are fundementally sound at it. The worst baserunners tend to be the kids that are fast. They seem to believe that because they are fast they will be good baserunners. Wrong! They run you out of innings and they make alot of boneheaded mistakes.

A coach can gain a huge advantage over most hs teams by doing some things that have absolutely nothing to do with talent.

Be a great baserunning team.
Be sound in the bunt game.
Be sound in the bunt defense game.
Be sound in the cut game.
Focus on making routine plays on a routine basis.
Defend the 1st and 3rd.
Exploit the teams that do not know how to defend the 1st and 3rd.
Exploit the teams that are not sound in the bunt game.
Exploit the teams that are not sound in the cut game.

If you win these aspects of a hs baseball game you will win almost everytime you are playing a team of equal talent.

You will win everytime you are playing a team of lesser talent.

You will beat alot of teams that are more talented than you.

It is quite sad to see so many kids at this level of play that have no clue how to take a lead. How to get back on a throw over. How to take a secondary lead. How to read a pitcher. How to extend on a dirtball and read the pitch out of the pitchers hand. How to approach first base on a ball hit through the infield or the outfield. How to approach 2b on any ball. How to approach 3b on any ball. How to take a secondary at 3B. How to take advantage of other teams that do not understand the cut game.

I think its more of an indictment on the coaches myself. It is woefully uncoached and poorly coached.

Our Elite teams all taught base running at almost every practice. They spent time at each base showing proper lead off with proper foot placement. Also spent hours on cuts. This stuff was drilled into the player so it was done properly. If you messed up in a game you were taken aside and lectured on proper technique.
HS didn't teach any of this .

I agree it's a lost art and seems to be getting worse. This past season I finally was very happy with my guys and their baserunning. We took many bases on dirtballs and lackadasical OF play. You just have to tell your guys if you are going to do this then it's OK to get thrown out every once in a while. But to give them that freedom you have to teach them what to look for or you have what Coach May said - guys running you out of innings. We did baserunning a lot to help with conditioning and preparing for the game. I give my guys total freedom as long as the ball is in front of them. The only time my basecoaches ever gave signs to go or stop was if the ball was behind them.

I believe another thing that hurts is at the lower levels teams rely on the long ball / big innings. You usually see dads coaching for whatever reason and they have no idea how to teach reading a ball in the dirt.

It's actually pretty simple thing to cover in practice though 2 or 3 times a week in practice and cover it defensively. Get a group of IF out there and spread guys on the bases as runners - could be one base or all three - and have your catchers in full gear. Get a coach in front of mound and have them throw to the catchers. Mix up dirtballs, frames, picks, passed balls and let the runners and defense react accordingly. You could spend 15 minutes on it and be better prepared than most teams but the crazy thing is you could work on it for an hour and half and not see every possibility but you will still be better prepared.

Over the last 2 HS seasons, we’ve had 207/162 for a 78% success rate out of 14 different players, with the most by 1 player being 36/32. What’s interesting is, in the 62 games over that same period of time, our P’s have only given up 63/26 for a 41% success rate.

Other teams can’t figure out how we’re having all this success but its simple! We have an ex-ML all star 2B who played for 14 years and stole 116/67 for 58% in the ML. He works endlessly with the runners and then will spend lots of time with the P’s telling them what he sees when they’re trying to hold runners on. It does help that we have an excellent C, but I think the fact that so few attempts are made shows how well our P’s keep guys close.

SKeep what are some of the things the guys does with your base runners?

quote:

Originally posted by socalhscoach:
SKeep what are some of the things the guys does with your base runners?

Well, although I haven’t been to a lot of practices, those that I have seen and from what he’s talked about it with me, a lot of it for the runners is about narrowing the focus and having them continually testing themselves to find their limits and try to improve technique.

Its kinda funny to watch the difference between him and our HC. Our HC has a track record of being one of the very best coaches in all of NorCal, and was the HS coach for Dustin Pedroia, so he ain’t just some slap. But when he does the base running stuff, its pretty typical of what you’d see in a team environment. There’s someone on the mound making a fake delivery, and players either individually or in groups, take their leadoffs and either run or dive back depending on the P, and that goes on at 1st, 2nd and 3rd for maybe 4 or 5 turns.

But when the other guy does it, it becomes a real workout. He’ll have all of our P’s, coaches, position players, and even a few fans if they’re willing, get out there on the mound. And there’s no fake pitches either. He’s always telling whoever’s on the mound to try to make every stretch, pitch, or throw over as much like a game as possible. By the time they’re done, I guarantee you that everyone’s sweaty and filthy.

Of course what he does doesn’t work equally well on everyone, but it really is amazing that kids who you wouldn’t think would dare try to steal give it a shot, and are often successful. Maybe its that there is special time set aside every practice, just like for fielding or batting. Or maybe its that the whole thing is kept as close to game conditions as possible, and maybe its that our coach is one aggressive dude.

I never checked to see how other teams SB’s attempted/converted compare to SB’s attempted/converted, but I’m guessing not too many teams have as wide a disparity as ours.

thanks Skeep

Coach2709 the 1st thing a player has to learn is picking up his base coach and doing what he tells them. It is a big mistake letting them make the decision on their own.
If a player on our team did that he would be warned and do it again he is benched.

BHD - I understand where you are coming from and I don't have a problem with teams who make the runners pick up the coach but your kids are as good as you teach them. If I teach my guys in practice how to read a play and make smart decisions then I should give them that freedom to make a play. If they make a mistake then we talk about it and figure out what to do in order for it not to happen. If it keeps happening then we make changes.

What is the difference between having an outfielder making a throw home to nail a runner and the catcher calls a cut two to try and nail an advancing runner because the runner going home will score versus a runner rounding second heading to third on a play to the CF? Both require making a decision and taking a chance. If you prepare your team to make plays then chances are they will make plays. If they don't then fix the problem.

Just two different ways of approaching the game - neither one is wrong.

The player no matter how good he is picks up the coach at each bag. There is no option . The coaches are at the bases to direct the baserunner. The base runner shouldn't watch the ball but the base coach. It is the base copaches job to watch the ball and the play develop.
our guys are taught to pick up the coaches and do as they direct them to do.
Out fielders and infielders don't have coaches standing near them to tell them what to do. They are taught what to do in a given circumstance. That is totally different than a B runner. The base runner should be focused on getting to each base as quickly as possibel and that precludes looking to see where the ball goes which will cost him time.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
…If I teach my guys in practice how to read a play and make smart decisions then I should give them that freedom to make a play.

…Just two different ways of approaching the game - neither one is wrong.

This is really not a lot different than coaches calling pitches or not. I’ll go along with either philosophy CAN lead to success, but I look at those kinds of things and try to imagine which “system” I’d get the most out of, and enjoy playing under the most.

I’m a persnickety and headstrong kinda guy who likes to make his own decisions, right or wrong. I get the most satisfaction doing something successfully if I did it on my own, and learn the most when I’m allowed to make mistakes. I’m not saying any player or person should operate in a vacuum, but as you said, if taught something in practice, most players I’ve come across who are “take charge guys” or “team leaders” not only want to be allowed to perform with the fewest restraints possible, but actually play better that way.

I agree with coach27, there are times when a player should make the decision.

Rounding 1st , ball hit any field

Rounding 2nd , ball hit left

Catcher passed balls

The coach will usually call this, but there are circumstances when a player has to react in a split 2nd. For instance, mishandled balls, dropped flies, confusion between 2 outfielders.

This thread is interesting because I have noticed the speed/bad base running as well.

Base running is not easy to teach because instincts plays such a large part of it. You can teach it and drill it but some kids "feel" the game better and others will run into outs beyond belief.

Feel the need to give an opinion here.

First of all, the “very best” base runners are those that can run fast. I understand that slower runners can be smart base runners, but they will never be fast base runners. If player A can steal 2B in 3.3 and player B takes 3.7… Player A will almost always beat player B to 2B. Player B would have to have a jump the equivalent of two full strides before player A took off for it to be equal. In other words if player B was starting his second stride when player A started his first stride… Player A would still get to 2B one stride before player B. We can use the stop watch to figure every running situation out. Yes, maybe because of this extra speed, player A is more likely to take a chance and make a mistake. Also from 1B or 2B he is going to cross home plate way ahead of player B. The mechanics involved are really very easy to learn by any base runner.

I think it is a mistake to lump all fast runners into the dumb base runner category. The best and smartest base runner I ever coached was also the fastest runner I ever coached. He stole 100 bases in his last year of college while getting caught 9 times. He ran a 6.24 60 at Busch Stadium that same year. Fast doesn’t = Stupid, anymore than Slow = Smart!

I agree completely with base running being the most over looked important thing in baseball. Most kids are taught the basics and that’s about it. Nearly every close game, you will see a base running play, or more than one, that will have a bearing on winning or losing the game.

I must disagree with BHD regarding the base to base coaching. I would even go so far as to say that most base running decisions, especially at 1B, are made by the base runner. 3B is another story! The only time a 1B coach should send a runner is on a ball hit to the left of the SS, almost always down the left field line. Of course, the 1B coach will stop a runner if the situation calls for it. But most good base runners are always aware of the situation. In other words a base runner should never take any chance of being thrown out in certain situations. (E.G. Leading off the last inning two or more runs down, you don’t gamble on stretching a hit into a double) The coach at 1B can surely stop that from happening.

Regarding being a smart base runner, it is all about knowing your ability and more importantly, understanding the situation. The decisions all change based on the situation. They can change with each pitch at times. They certainly change with each out nearly all the time. And the score and inning are even more important at times.

I’m not down playing the importance of instincts at all. Just that being slow or fast doesn’t mean you have or don’t have great instincts.

I like TripleDad’s description… Some kids “feel” the game better than others. That holds true for both fast or slow runners. But if your team has a bunch of fast guys with great instincts and I have a bunch of slow guys with great instincts… You have a gigantic advantage!

There’s a reason those scouts and college coaches carry stop watches with them!

I have some buddies who have proven to be very successful at the high school level. One of them uses his first practice to introduce baserunning. That is all they do for 2 hours. He has won a couple of state championships in MD, and his incoming and returning players know the routine on day 1. He supplements by constantly working on base running thoughout the season.

I don't see many teams do a lot of base running instruction and practice. They do the basics of how to take a lead, what to read of the pitcher and first step. As for advancing on the bases they teach how to turn the corner. How many teams do you see practices dedicated to getting a jump? How many teams do you see practicing reaction to the ball getting away from the catcher (not to the backstop, but five feet, ten feet, fifteen feet away)?

It drives me nuts when kids don't study pitchers from the dugout. It drives me nuts when they don't watch the fielder's arms during pregame and between innings. As a player I was studying the third baseman's agility and arm, the pitcher's leg drag and where he came down the mound, and the catcher's throw down. The first thing I was looking for was to see if the bunt single and the steal of second was available.

I believe a lot of these instincts have gone the way of pickup sandlot ball. When we played five on five, six on six, seven on seven we were always looking to be aggressive and pull something off on the other team. Having all ball being structured now has taken some of this way.

Getting back to TR's original question, I suspect that base running and stealing don't get much attention from some players and coaches simply because professional teams don't steal as much as they did in the past.

It seems to me that much of the way amateur baseball is played-- both technique and strategy-- is based on imitation.

At the youth levels its always been about waiting until you have a passed ball or dirt ball and then advancing. When kids get to high school, some programs just don't focus on baserunning. We always have. We do a detailed, lead, secondary jump and go program during both pitchers work on the mound and bunt defenses. Then we have each kid work again during BP. We were also very good at advancing on dirt balls with faster runners. We've always believed that the catcher had to pick it up cleanly and then make a perfect throw to get him. Situations always dictate the advancement of course.
I would much rather loose a game with my fastest kid trying to score than to not have tried at all.
Also, a slower baserunner doesn't necessarily have the confidence that a faster runner has to stretch hit into extra bases.
I've had a few slower kids who were good instictively, but they were never better than the faster kids.

PG you probably know the guy who taugh me base running. Coach Murray who was the former coach of the Hamilton Astros in their hey day. That team has merged with Team Ontario Inc. He also was a former Blue Jay coach and scout. He was the smartest coach I have ever met. He spent hours on base running. 1st thing was after putting ball in play you pick up 1st base coach. If he showed take 2nd you ran one way with a slight arc to go to 2nd if not you ran through the base. If an error was made he saw it and told you to go to 2nd or stay put. He told you what lead off, primary,secondary or tershiary (SP?).. He taught never cross feet but glide smoothly and no resting arms or hands on thighs. Yes the player watches the ball but it is the coach who sends or holds you. Once at 2nd you pick up the 3rd base coach as you reach second. It is that coach who sends you or holds you. We have all seen MLB players miss their signs and they get told. Many times the coach almost takles the guy at 3rd to stop them.
This is not about players satisfaction with themselves but team play. The coaches are there for one reason and that is not to congratulate the runner for making it to each base. Players who don't pick up their coaches are not good base runners. They are ill equiped to be called good base runners.
Eg. A player slides into 2nd on a close call with his back to the outfield. If he is a good base runner he picks up the coach who saw the ball shoot into the outfield through the SS clove. The coach is waving him to 3rd, The runner had no clue where the ball was and would hve to take time to search for it. A good base runner sees the coach and gets up and runs to 3rd taking a base he would otherwise not get. I have seen many very quick players who have an advantage but it is optimized by proper base running.
Smart means using the tools that are available. The base coaches are better able to see what is happening and to asses risk based on the situation. If you need the run badly he can be more aggressive or not based on the situation.

I have noticed that most of the good base stealers in youth ball are kids that love to take risks. Some kids hate to steal. Doesn't matter about their ability. They hate taking a chance of making an out. Other kids will steal on every pitch regardless of jumps, moves, counts, score etc.

When you get a kid that loves to take chances, has blazing speed, and learns how to take a base, that is when you have a base stealer. Those kids are always scoring runs, pressuring the D and making pitchers/catchers sweat.

They are rare but a pleasure to watch when you find one.

Guys:
The best base runners coach themselves. They do not need base coaches except to be held up at 3B.

The good ones are prepared. They know the scoreboard & the positioning of the defense(infield & outfield) before the ball is delivered.Then they react to the contact. Their decisions are made in their 1st 2 or 3 steps out of the blocks.They follow the ball at all times,even if it is hit behind them.

Try playing your simulated or intrasquad games without base coaches & see what happens.The more decison making responsibility you give to your players, the better they will play(More aggressive, more athletic & more responsible for their actions)

Don't create co-dependent players. The best lessons are self taught.Obviously there is an element of guided discovery in this process, but you don't need to fill in all the blanks for them.The goal is to develop craetive "make things happen" players.The more you put the ball in their court, the better chance you have of developing those kinds of players.

JW

BHD,

I don't doubt that he is a great coach. I just don't agree!

A hitter does not pick up the 1B coach as soon as he puts the ball in play. It would be stupid IMO if a hitter were to rely on the 1B coach when the ball is hit right in front of his vision path.

Truth is that the base runner has a much better idea of what he can or can't do than the 1B coach.

It's totally different when the ball is behind the runner. ie trying to score from 2B or going 1B to 3B on a ball hit behind the runner.

The main job of a good 1B coach is to remind the base runner of situations (really shouldn't be necessary) and picking up the helmets from baserunners at the end of an inning. And of course, helping a runner when he has hit the ball down the left field or 3B line. There are a few more things, but the point is the 3B coach will make three times more decisions than the 1B coach and he (the 3B coach) will have a lot fewer runners to help in every game.

The above opinions, for the most part, will be shared by most all higher level coaches. My guess is that even the coach you're referring to would agree, but then again, maybe not.

BHD - I will just take every single win and championship my teams have won (probably most ever in that school's history - not sure because nobody kept records until I got there) and give them back since I am such a terrible coach.

Ok I get it - you want your guys to pick up each coach. I don't have a problem with that because I have played and coached in systems like that. They work and there is nothing wrong with them. It's just not what I teach because what I teach works also. I'm not onto something revolutionary here. This isn't something that I have come up with on my own because I am not that smart. I went to some clinic somewhere and somebody a lot smarter than me presented this. I liked it and I went with it.

I want my guys going 100 MPH on the bases. Today's kids are ok with hitting a single and cruising into first with a small turn. If I turn them loose (after teaching what to look for) they will end up stretching singles into doubles. I teach them when to stop and when to chance it. I turn them loose with the belief they will make a good decision.

If I put the stop sign on - they stop. There is no question about it. I work the third base box by putting myself into a position where they can see the ball and me or they see the ball and I am down the line far enough the next thing they see will be me.

I think the 1B coach is one of the most useless positions on the field. The hitter should know where they hit the ball. If it's on the IF they know haul rear to go through the bag - 1B coach not needed. If it's a bad throw to 1B the hitter should be able to see where it went and if they can advance - 1B coach not needed. If it's a basehit / flyball to OF the hitter should know it and be rounding the bag wanting to take second - 1B coach is not needed. On a pickoff to 1B if the runner waits for the 1B coach to yell "back" they are going to get picked. Why do they say it? It doesn't help.

The only real way the 1B coach can be of use is with a runner on 2B to help spot the SS. But this should still be the responsiblity of the runner to be able to "feel" and take a good walking lead deep to front.

If they can teach a monkey to go into space and a gorilla to do sign language we can teach kids to run bases without coaches.

Get off your soap box - you don't like the way I teach baserunning. Fine but it doesn't make me wrong just like your not wrong in teaching your kids to check the coach if they need to sneeze.

Great Post Coach and PG I could not agree more. If a player has to look for the coach to make all his decisions for him then you have not coached your players properly. The 1B coach is exactly what PG described in his post. The 3B coach is the players eyes when he can not see and read for himself. When a player is reading the ball himself there is no hesitation from the player to the coach then back to the player. Great post coach I have never seen you coach but I can tell alot from that post. And I like it alot.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
Great Post Coach and PG I could not agree more. If a player has to look for the coach to make all his decisions for him then you have not coached your players properly. The 1B coach is exactly what PG described in his post. The 3B coach is the players eyes when he can not see and read for himself. When a player is reading the ball himself there is no hesitation from the player to the coach then back to the player. Great post coach I have never seen you coach but I can tell alot from that post. And I like it alot.

Thanks coach - I really appreciate it. I know if I become half as good a coach as you are then I know I will have had a good career. I really learn a lot reading your posts and love your "here is how it is now deal with it" outlook. Need more of it in today's society.

PG I am sure you knew Murray Marshal who was a Blue Jay scout and coach until 2002. He ran an elite team called the Hamilton Astros . Many of his players were at your events over the years.
He is one of the smartest BB guys I have watched. He also coached the Ontario Youth teams. I remember him spending hours on base running and that is what he taught. To be honest I have never heard of players picking up the base coaches.
Coach If a batter hits a ball down 3rd B what do you teach him to do?

Off the top of my head, I can think of a situation where the 1st base coach is very much needed. I have also seen many 1st base coaches "drop the ball" on this.

With a man on 1st and 2nd and the 1bmen is playing back. 1st base coach needs to keep an eye on 1bmen to make sure he doesn't sneek up for the pick. He also needs to remind player not to be reckless(and many are)with runners ahead.

It should never happen, but I have seen quite a few kids get picked in this situation.

I'm not being a smart aleck, but if someone spent hours of coaching on base running, why then have your runners almost completely rely on the base coaches telling them what to do?

I tried to make a point in a previous post that I think over coaching has hurt a lot of the instincts in baseball players. In my opinion, no where is this more true than base running. This is not to say that coaching proper base running is not important because it certainly is. But, players will quickly learn when they can take extra bases, how to take advantage of balls in the dirt, when they can steal, etc. if they're given the opportunity (and the freedom to get thrown out on occasion).

quote:

If a batter hits a ball down 3rd B what do you teach him to do?

I can't think of a situation where the first base coach is needed on a ball hit down third.

Ground ball fielded
Ground ball through
Line Drive through in front of LF
Line Drive through passed LF
Line drive through LF bobbles
Any pop fly

Player should know what to do in all these situations. Some would say the player wouldn't know if the ball got through line or ground etcc... But they do and they should.

I have been taught that it is the coaches job to let the BR know.
When you hit the ball you know where it si headed but you should start quickly to 1st. Your eyes should initially go to the ground as you drive to get out of the box just like a sprinter out of the blocks. As you get into your stride you should be looking down 1st B line and little head movement to get max speed. You pick up the 1st B coach who is letting you know by his actions whether to set up to go to 2nd or drive straight through. Anyone who has sprinted at a high level know that you have to look straight forward and that head movement is the biggest killer of speed in what is essentially a sprint situation.

BBH

If player hits ground ball to third he knows it and will run through the bag. If the ground ball gets through, the player will know it with out looking. The 1st basemen will tell him and so will the fans.
If it is a line drive through, he is rounding 1st hard no matter what. And btw, all runners peek, and a peek is all you need. That .0001 of second won't hurt ya.

How can you debate conjecture ?

quote:

Coach If a batter hits a ball down 3rd B what do you teach him to do?

Run

quote:

I have been taught that it is the coaches job to let the BR know.

I think we all realize this and personally speaking I don't have a problem with it. You aren't wrong in teaching it - it's just not what I teach. What I teach is correct just like what you teach is correct.

There are many ways to teach this game.

quote:

How can you debate conjecture ?

I would say it's easier to debate conjecture than it is to debate facts.

As I see it, the main goal in coaching a baserunner is that they react (properly) before or right as I can say it as basecoach. The best example of this is when you are coaching third and a ball squirts away from the catcher... if a runner has to be told to go, it's probably too late. If he has the proper lead and lean as the ball is arriving to the plate and he's reacting to the game properly he's on his way before it's out of my mouth.
That is when you know you have a baserunner who is playing the game right ... as a coach, that is a darn good feeling.