If a runner is stealing and the catcher makes a good throw and on time and goes in the glove, but the infield player drops the ball so the runner is safe, how should that be scored for the stats? I noticed that this got recorded as a 'stolen base allowed' after a game that my son played in. I didn't look at the stats for the other player to see if they got recorded for an error but it seems like having this as an allowed stolen base doesn't seem exactly accurate. Is it?
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If the runner was clearly going to be out and the throw did not bounce, then I usually score it as an error on the IF and do not credit the runner with a stolen base. If the ball and the runner arrive at the same time and the IF drops the ball, I would score it a stolen base because there is no certainty that the ump would have called the runner out. And of course the most obvious are the ones where the ump has already signaled the runner is out but then changes it when he sees that the ball is loose and the infielder dropped it. The same standard applies to catchers who drop throws from the field on plays at the plate and the run scores--the catcher gets the error.
Here's the rule:
When in the scorer’s judgment a runner attempting to steal is safe because of a muffed throw, the official scorer shall not credit a stolen base. The official scorer shall credit an assist to the fielder who made the throw, charge an error to the fielder who muffed the throw and charge the runner with “caught stealing.”
On close plays where the fielder is trying to catch, tag, and avoid getting knocked over all at the same time, most scorers will award the stolen base even though an on-target throw is dropped.
It's not always fair, but the runner who initiates action and applies pressure to the defense usually gets the benefit of the scorer's judgment. Most scorers are reluctant to award a "caught stealing" on plays where the runner was not in fact caught unless the catcher clearly had the runner dead to rights with an early, on-target throw that was blatantly misplayed by the fielder.
(Most catchers' dads would also award errors a) to infielders who allow the runner to reach second safely because they can't resist the temptation to reach out for the ball instead of letting it travel all the way to the base, and b) to pitchers who fail to hold runners or deliver the ball quickly.)
Ha! Catcher's mom here :-) But point taken! I was not there but had been following the game online and so I asked my son later about the double steal and he emphatically said he had the guy going to third out but the third baseman dropped the ball. I suppose there's some possibility that he could also be biased 
As a catcher's dad, I had to laugh at Swampboy's comment! I'm not that biased on the scoring, but nothing boils me more than that IF who just has to let the ball travel right to the base for a ready made tag out instead of reaching forward and then pulling back. Those kids need to watch a Sports Science episode so they can see how much time they lose when they reach forward to catch the ball! And yes, runners do seem to get the benefit of the doubt most time with stolen bases credited when they should have otherwise been out. Just another reason catcher caught stealing percentages don't tell the whole story.
If the IF is a star player, it's a stolen base. Was a run scored? Do you need your pitcher's ERA lowered? Then it's an error on IF.
Likely to hear from Stats on this one....but the key here is "ordinary effort". If a HS middle infielder is receiving a good through and either whiffs, fumbles or drops it when the runner would clearly have been out then you can apply the error/CS. Also true for a received throw and dropped ball on the tag.
If the play is not clear however and it will be a "bang-bang" situation then my feeling is SB in 100% of those.
It doesn't matter. If the throw beat the runner and was on the bag, catcher did his job. You won't find that in the rule book but that's how anybody paying attention would view it. JMO
Catcher stats mean very little even at the college level due to scorekeeping inconsistencies, coach influence and lack of knowledge.
What about past balls and wild pitches? My son tends to get out pretty far pretty quick on wild pitches most kids attempt to pick. It looks more like a hockey save than a traditional block. Do they automatically get credited with a past ball or is it like an outfielder attempting to make a diving play and just miss. They dont give the outfielder an error. Seems like the official scorer has some serious power!
re-reading this morning I realize that Swampboy's comments about how a catcher's parent would probably score actually would not be biased in scoring, they would be accurate, but probably rarely happen!
Kevin A posted:What about past balls and wild pitches? My son tends to get out pretty far pretty quick on wild pitches most kids attempt to pick. It looks more like a hockey save than a traditional block. Do they automatically get credited with a past ball or is it like an outfielder attempting to make a diving play and just miss. They dont give the outfielder an error. Seems like the official scorer has some serious power!
If a pitcher buries a 1-2 change or a CB in the dirt and the catcher doesn't block it, I consider it a passed ball. Good catchers consider it a passed ball. Recruiters and scouts expect that ball to be blocked. Official scorers, scoring by the book consider it a wild pitch. Watch a big league game some time, any pitch in the dirt is scored a wild pitch if it gets by the catcher. Can't say it is sensible, but that is the way it is scored. FB's in the dirt, well inside or outside of the plate are hard to block....period. Add some guy on the mound with high velocity, its nearly impossible to front FB's that really miss.
I agree-any pitch in the dirt is a wild pitch. Any pitch a catcher can't get a "whole" glove on is a wild pitch.
In the first scenario-give the IF an error, but I wouldn't know how to give the runner a "caught stealing" if he is still on base? (Using Gamechanger to score)
The determination between passed balls and wild pitches depends on our old friend "ordinary effort."
It's not ordinary effort for catchers at any level to pluck the ball out of the dirt because high velocity, high spin, acute angle impacts with the dirt or the plate or the beveled edge of the plate are unpredictable and there's no possibility of reaction in the milliseconds between ground impact and reaching the catcher.
Catchers practice positioning themselves to maximize the chance of success, and the good ones expect themselves to block everything, but they can't be held responsible for what happens when the ball bounces, skips, skids, or skitters right in front of them.
It's always "Nice Block!" when they stop it, and the pitcher wears it when they don't.
Any one ever tell their catchers nice pick? I hear it sometimes and I in turn tell him he is a catcher, not playing first....
Usually earns me glance from him with that look. LOL..
Kevin A posted:Any one ever tell their catchers nice pick? I hear it sometimes and I in turn tell him he is a catcher, not playing first....
Usually earns me glance from him with that look. LOL..
Actually, Kevin, yes, many tell catchers "nice pick" from time to time. As your son goes up levels, I think it will become more clear that fastballs are quite often picked instead of blocked, even with runners. Of course, anything off speed, catcher should anticipate the possible need to block. FB's that miss - often not feasible or advisable.
Catch1721 posted:
If a pitcher buries a 1-2 change or a CB in the dirt and the catcher doesn't block it, I consider it a passed ball. Good catchers consider it a passed ball. Recruiters and scouts expect that ball to be blocked. Official scorers, scoring by the book consider it a wild pitch. Watch a big league game some time, any pitch in the dirt is scored a wild pitch if it gets by the catcher. Can't say it is sensible, but that is the way it is scored. FB's in the dirt, well inside or outside of the plate are hard to block....period. Add some guy on the mound with high velocity, its nearly impossible to front FB's that really miss.
Doesn’t matter what YOU or anyone else consider it. Just like umpires, scorers have to go by the rules of the game, and the rules say:
OBR 9.12(a) …The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance.
And a passed ball is a legal pitch that with reasonable effort the catcher should maintain control. IE a Passed ball is ball that comes in off the plate a tad and you muff it causing runners to advance..
While a lot of pitches can be on the pitcher, again, I think any catcher who truly loves to catch and takes his position seriously is going to want to stop EVERYTHING from getting by. I know my son does and he takes it personal when he cant....And I am sure a coach is going to say "Wild pitch but the catcher should have had it."
As mentioned above if you have a catcher who can block like a champ and frames those pitches stealing a few extra strikes someone is going to notice him...
Kevin A posted:
And a passed ball is a legal pitch that with reasonable effort the catcher should maintain control. IE a Passed ball is ball that comes in off the plate a tad and you muff it causing runners to advance..
Actually, there are a lot of ways a C can get popped with a PB. The one I hate to mark but have no choice, is when the P crosses up the C. Ex: C calls CU up and in but P throws FB low and away. Those are evil darts that are damn tough to catch.
While a lot of pitches can be on the pitcher, again, I think any catcher who truly loves to catch and takes his position seriously is going to want to stop EVERYTHING from getting by. I know my son does and he takes it personal when he cant....And I am sure a coach is going to say "Wild pitch but the catcher should have had it."
It’s not just your son and not just catchers. Every player wants not to just make routine plays, but miracle plays as well. Every hitter wants to smash every pitch, every runner wants to steal every base, and every pitcher wants to make every pitch perfectly. But that’s human nature, not reality. Yes, a coach might say something like that and want his C to never let a ball past him, but no C can stop every rotten pitch any more than every coach can make every coaching decision perfectly.
As mentioned above if you have a catcher who can block like a champ and frames those pitches stealing a few extra strikes someone is going to notice him...
That’s true. Unfortunately there’s no “normal” metric for that, so it’s almost always only what people see.
"Any one ever tell their catchers nice pick? I hear it sometimes and I in turn tell him he is a catcher, not playing first....
Usually earns me glance from him with that look. LOL.."
Sometimes its appropriate to pick. i.e. runner goes and your only chance is to pick and throw, ball is not blocable. I don't recall my son ever picking fastballs in the minor leagues, I believe they are trained to block, but that can vary by team and instructor. Some guys pick because they can't block or they get surprised by the pitch and/or their knees aren't feeling it or they just have a brain fart.
Here’s one that happened Saturday.
Bot 4, 1 out, game tied. Called strike on big slow curve. 2 straight pitches in the dirt on curves, then another called strike on another curve. Next pitch is the 5th CB in a row. This one is again in the dirt but the batter swings, misses, and takes off for 1st. F2 blocks it so it doesn’t get passed him, but it does bounce several feet into fair territory. He jumps out and grabs it yelling “INSIDE”. Batter/runner is a rocket and is well past halfway to 1st when F2 sets and throws the ball. Ball short-hops F3 and he can’t field it cleanly allowing batter/runner to reach safely.
I hear people in the stands saying it should be an E on the F2, but I’ve already marked it as a WP with no E charged. I could have scored error, but were mitigating circumstances. By rule definition, a pitch that touches the dirt and allows a runner to move up a base or a batter to reach 1st is a wild pitch. If F2 had made a perfect throw and it was in time, he’d probably have gotten the batter at 1st, but assuming a throw will be perfect and in time is a stretch. And in the end, if the pitch wasn’t in the dirt the batter wouldn’t have been eligible to run.
To me it was the same thing as when a runner’s stealing 2nd or moving on a pitch in the dirt and the F2 short-hops the fielder and he can’t handle it, but if he had the runner might have been out. It’s really rare anyone gets charged with an E.
