Questioning how fast to be small D1 pitcher

The team that Tennessee played last night was Northern Kentucky, who is 0-8 and ranked by Massey at #292 out of 300 D1 baseball teams.  They play in the Horizon Conference which has a couple good teams at the top but drops off quickly after that. A better question to ask might be, why is Tennessee scheduling a team like that? 

I was going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say maybe they aren't in mid-season form yet??? But I like Adbono's question better, lol

Not what I was expecting when I saw the title about "small D1 pitcher". 

I went to a Calif. JC game Saturday and it went mostly as expected with some good starting arms, one RHP probably 86-88 with good command, the other a crafty lefty, maybe 84 tops but good deception and movement.  Both programs are pretty strong and have rosters full of athletic baseball builds.  But then the team with the righty starter brought in a lefty in the 8th in a 2-1 game with bases loaded, 1 out.  This kid was listed as 5'4" and that was probably a stretch.  Looked like he wore a size 5 shoe, chubby and out of shape.  Junker. High 70's mayyyyybe.  Warming up, didn't look like he had particularly good control and breaking stuff looked very HSish.  I was scratching my head because I know they had some good relievers available (one of whom I came to see).  Infield fly, ground out.  Got the job done.  Drove those two hitters nuts.

to answer the why play them question.  Because when this schedule was set 3-5 years ago UT was not very good either.  Plus it is hard for SEC schools to get teams to play unless they pay them. 

I also have seen it with Western Illinois and UNC Charlotte.  I just have begun to wonder if we are overexaggerating whether you have to throw 90 as a rightie or 85 as a leftie to be considered.  UNC Charlotte only had one at 90 and the others were low to mid 80's and struggled throwing strikes.  Western illinois had their friday starter and then went downhill fast and had no one throwing 90 on Sunday. 

I really cannot fathom two pitchers on one D1 team that cannot break 80 mph or throw strikes.  I know middle school kids who hit 80 and throw strikes.  How does the coach stay 20 years when he puts that on the field?  There have to be plenty of kids around that area that throw more than 80.  Last night they had 11 walks and Western Illinois had 12 in one game. 

I talked to some friends that have kids playing and asked them to start looking and they were the same.  Mid-Week and some Sunday guys are not real good pitchers.

A few years ago Cal State Fullerton went to the CWS with a couple of starters throwing 84/85. 

“Mid-Week and some Sunday guys are not real good pitchers.”

That may  be true at Northern Kentucky, schools in the SWAC, and other low level D1 programs. But if you were a good pitcher why would you want to go to any of those schools.  What you say (quoted above) is absolutely not true at good D1 programs. 

cabbagedad posted:

Not what I was expecting when I saw the title about "small D1 pitcher". 

I went to a Calif. JC game Saturday and it went mostly as expected with some good starting arms, one RHP probably 86-88 with good command, the other a crafty lefty, maybe 84 tops but good deception and movement.  Both programs are pretty strong and have rosters full of athletic baseball builds.  But then the team with the righty starter brought in a lefty in the 8th in a 2-1 game with bases loaded, 1 out.  This kid was listed as 5'4" and that was probably a stretch.  Looked like he wore a size 5 shoe, chubby and out of shape.  Junker. High 70's mayyyyybe.  Warming up, didn't look like he had particularly good control and breaking stuff looked very HSish.  I was scratching my head because I know they had some good relievers available (one of whom I came to see).  Infield fly, ground out.  Got the job done.  Drove those two hitters nuts.

I saw a kid like that pitch in relief for D3 Hardin Simmons a few years ago in a game against UT Dallas.  Kid was LHP, maybe 5’-6” tall, FB topped at 74 mph, CU at 62 mph. Was effective in a short stint the day I saw him. After the game his HC told me he was either good or he wasn’t - no in between - and it didn’t take long to know one way or the other. 

PitchingFan posted:

I also have seen it with Western Illinois and UNC Charlotte.  I just have begun to wonder if we are overexaggerating whether you have to throw 90 as a rightie or 85 as a leftie to be considered.  UNC Charlotte only had one at 90 and the others were low to mid 80's and struggled throwing strikes.  Western illinois had their friday starter and then went downhill fast and had no one throwing 90 on Sunday. 

I talked to some friends that have kids playing and asked them to start looking and they were the same.  Mid-Week and some Sunday guys are not real good pitchers.

No UNC Charlotte starter was just touching 90 this past weekend.  Well above, saw plenty of 93, 94 + 95.

I saw a man pitch against the Yankees on Saturday, LHP topping at 86, sitting below that.  Brian Moran.  Looks like he pitched for UNC. 

Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

I saw a man pitch against the Yankees on Saturday, LHP topping at 86, sitting below that.  Brian Moran.  Looks like he pitched for UNC. 

As a stunt Bill Veeck once sent Eddie Gaedel to the plate as a pinch hitter in a MLB game in 1951. Gaedel was 3’-7” tall. I guess that means we should encourage little people not to give up on their dream of playing in the big leagues. Odds aren’t much different. 

This makes me laugh thinking back at a friend I had in school a while back. Actually a really good guy with a really good sense of humor. Threw a knee buckling slllooooowww curve ball, but once the first guy hit one in the trees coach knew it was time to pull him. I recall one time it happened on the first dam pitch (CF never moved). Coach came out to the mound and said, "well s#*t that didn't work". Till this day he is the only pitcher I've ever seen get pulled after throwing 1 pitch and wasn't injured. He would brag after the games that he threw so well that even the homeruns he gave up were majestic!

Well, it's early in the season. It's quite common for a player to have recorded, say 90 mph at one point, but be sitting at 83-5 at any one outing during the season, whether it be early, or late when he has a fatigued arm. Mid week starts also tend to be of lesser velo. I do see a lot of P's during the year at good baseball schools who are throwing 86-88 fastballs, but I would bet that at some point they have thrown 91-2. 

    I don't know what to say about the size aspect. If he can pitch, he can pitch.

 This might be apropos of nothing, but i do believe that there is a place for a junk baller. There was a knuckleballer around here who never got past 72...almost all the kids HATED batting against him. Those guys tend to completely mess up hitters if they know what they are doing. Guys go up there fouling off everything, and corkscrewing themselves into the ground trying to hammer the ball. I think that the coach is probably best to send up the weaker players against junkers.

Some of ya'll aren't reading the whole posts.  ADBONO, I said low D1 teams not good D1 teams.  So don't take what I said out of context. 

Catspop.  I also did not talk about UNC Charlotte's starting weekend pitchers.  I referred to their weekday guys after the starter.  The whole thread is about their mid-week guys.  We just say on here all the time that you have to be throwing 90 to be D1 but that is not true.  I have seen 20 low D1 pitchers in mid-week games this year live or on video in the first two weeks and have only seen a couple touch 90 so we may not be putting it out there in truth.  You can make a team without throwing gas.

AGAIN.  I am not talking top D1's or even the best that Mid to low D1 teams have.  I'm just saying that there are guys throwing 85 and down that are pitching at D1's.

I watched the first few innings of the Ole Miss vs Southern Miss game yesterday.  S. Miss started a lefty that topped at 82, lived in the upper 70's, and went 4 innings giving up 2 runs.

PitchingFan posted:

Some of ya'll aren't reading the whole posts.  ADBONO, I said low D1 teams not good D1 teams.  So don't take what I said out of context. 

Catspop.  I also did not talk about UNC Charlotte's starting weekend pitchers.  I referred to their weekday guys after the starter.  The whole thread is about their mid-week guys.  We just say on here all the time that you have to be throwing 90 to be D1 but that is not true.  I have seen 20 low D1 pitchers in mid-week games this year live or on video in the first two weeks and have only seen a couple touch 90 so we may not be putting it out there in truth.  You can make a team without throwing gas.

AGAIN.  I am not talking top D1's or even the best that Mid to low D1 teams have.  I'm just saying that there are guys throwing 85 and down that are pitching at D1's.

Oh I read the whole thing. Seems to me your point is “you can be a bottom of the roster pitcher on a bad D1 team if you throw mid 80s.”  I don’t think that’s really newsworthy or helpful information. JMO

"How does that happen in D1 baseball."

Well there's pitchers who get outs. And there's throwers who get bombed.

Then there is 88 down the middle that gets bombed, and there is 84 on the corner that gets rolled over.

And there is mindless slingers, and calculating competitors.

Then there is control over one pitch that breaks the radar gun, and control over 4 pitches that leaves you want to hit a trash can with your bat.

And there is mound presence vs laughable mound presence.

And there is ball 4, followed by ball 4, followed by HBP, follow by the radar gun reading 92!!! (unfortunately the exit velo on the pitch mindlessly thrown belt high down middle read 108!)

But its all good because we all know by now the game score is only kept on the radar gun.

And how could I forget!!! There is the C4 double dose chased down with the 4 hour energy juice. Or something new I'm hearing about called D-Ball that seems to be what all the 23 year old juco trainwrecks are using until caught.

High Point (probably more mid D1 than low) coach told me all his guys throw between 87-92. I didn't get into the nitty gritty on that left handed v right handed. My son's a RHP and he topped at 82 that weekend. He won't be going to High Point.

Tom Eshleman throws a <>84-86 mph fastball.  He had a 1.65 era at Cal State Fullerton.  He had a rough time in the Majors, but his success in college is off the charts.  He makes a decent salary to be a fringe big leaguer.  He will always have a stat line in baseball reference that most of us would be glad to have on our resumes.

I've watched one of my son's teammates (decent mid major) simply blow an 83 mph fastball past hitters.  He has K per 9 of 13.  His ball simply does not move like most fastballs.  His success has been against all levels of D1 competition.  Same team a guy throwing 93 with no swing and miss.

If you see a guy throwing in the low to low to mid 80s being successful, he probably does something that  works that others cannot do or cannot do it consistently.

Also, pitchers who can change speeds and not throw the ball down the middle of the plate can do well.  Most college pitchers have big innings by walking batters, then throwing a meatball behind to a hitter in a count.  I know this is the same formula that works or fails at all levels.  

Mid Major and lower D1 teams do not have the luxury of pulling in 12 guys every year throwing 90 plus, then sorting through the six that can actually pitch.

Showball$ posted:

(unfortunately the exit velo on the pitch mindlessly thrown belt high down middle read 108!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

You win best line award for the day!

Man, I wish I had a dollar for every time this debate has come up here.

I think we have to keep in mind that there is a big difference between a pitcher getting  ACTIVELY RECRUITED to a decent D1 program and a pitcher who happens to find himself pitching in a D1 game.  Two totally different scenarios. 

Most conversations here that reference the need to be at (or close to) 90 are in the context of what it takes to be RECRUITED.  Yes, there are exceptions but that statement still stands fairly true. 

Remember, we also hear time and time again about guys who sit just below 90 who can't get a sniff from decent D1's.  There are many reasons why you will see several P's at D1 that are not throwing 90 in game.  Early/late in the season.  Has to throttle down for movement or command.  Velo regressed instead of developed as projected.  We won't recruit him but give him a chance to earn a spot in fall cuz he seems to get guys out.  Multiple injuries pushes us to use guys well down the bench (who were not recruited/offered $).  Program is not good and has a hard time recruiting decent arms.  Program has little or no scholly $ to offer so competition opens up to walk ons of varying status. Throw the change-of-pace guy.  Loogy (this guy isn't offered much scholly $ or is a guy who was offered the year before but didn't develop, so scholly pulled with offer to remain as a bullpen specialist). Side-armer project. Etc., etc.  

Yes, projectability, movement, command, presence, deception come into play.  But, when the conversation is about likelihood of getting ACTIVELY RECRUITED by a decent D1, it is wise to use the 90 as a general benchmark.  Otherwise, you are most likely steering a young player to fish in the wrong pond.

Good for HIgh Point.  Save yourself 60k tuition a year.

And they may throw 87-92, but few of them really ever carried their high school team. Key word is throw. Missing word is pitch.

I think the whole 90+ or bust thing is a myth when it comes to recruiting. 90+ if they need to develop other pitches for you. 85+ if you have good off speed pitches, pitchability, and a nobody can touch me attitude. Now the SEC is different from the MEAC, but you can wind up at a good program with a sub 90 fastball. The 87/88 guys who can't find an offer are typically guys that can't hit spots, can't throw strikes, or read at a fourth grade level and aren't worth the headache of going after. 87mph/2.6 GPA/1040 SAT and puts up 2IP/3BB/0H/5K are firm passes. 

The kids committing to SEC programs are guys who throw hard and can pitch. The sub 90 guys committing to good programs pitch well, hit spots, and spin it. The sub 90 guys who can't get a return email are the ones who throw straight fastballs with a 30 grade curveball. 

We (P5) played a below average program in our midweek. Their starter was 92-93 and got absolutely tattooed. They brought in an 85 guy who did a good job at keeping us off balance and he kept the game respectable for 4 more innings. A lot of Ks looking tells me he locates well. I've also noticed that the top speeds you see in HS are one or two pitches that whole game. The top speeds you see in college really aren't too far off from cruising speed. They can be within a mph or two of their top for 6 innings. I think that is one of the biggest differences from HS to college. 

Pitchingfan, 

We all know that programs in the country are measured by their football programs and attract the best players. 

What exactly do you mean by small D1? 

I would refer to FAU, which plays in the same conference as UNC Charlotte, a mid d1 program. But not small.

It is possible that a pitcher who throws 84 in D1 has hit 88 in a showcase before going all out but has realized he has no control if he throws that hard and thus settled for taking a few mph off to hit his spots.

My son was a sophomore and was asked to visit Winthrop that summer. He was an undersized righty, throwing 84-86 and touching 88 and got an offer. They do not have football and the campus is interesting ( in somewhat of a residential area) but usually have solid baseball teams.

When I say small schools, I'm talking lower smaller schools no matter the conference.  Adbono is right to some extent to the baseball gurus but to those of us who are not elitist it is a point that has not been made on here very much that a guy can be low 80's and pitch D1.  I just have heard on here for years that to play D1 you have to be 90 plus as a rightie, not just recruited but to play.  Even to the extent, that if you are not 90 don't even waste your time trying to be a D1 player.  But this year, I think because mine is playing, I've looked at radar in college a lot more.  And it clicked with me that we are lying to kids and their parents.  In two weeks I have seen 20 plus guys who never came close to 90 and they are living the dream of playing D1 baseball.  You can argue what's the big deal and all that but they are living their D1 dream.  I just think we have put too much emphasis on here that you have to be a certain speed to get there.  I've bought into that in the past but maybe because I was only looking at the top mid majors and P5's.  There are a lot of schools, some very good conference teams, that have midweek guys on their rosters that do not come close to that 90 range.  And I'm sure of them would rather play at a non-competitive lower level D1 than a high level D3 or juco or any other level.  I didn't mean to start a fight and get some people's feathers ruffled.  I'm sure some are upset because their kid or someone they know played at one of these schools and think I'm picking on them.  I just thought it was interesting that our hypothesis is wrong, my hypothesis is wrong.  You can throw it 80 and still pitch at a D1.  Maybe you baseball gurus knew this but it never clicked with me to this extent.  I feel better for the kids I'm working with that are just hitting 80 as sophomores that if they don't get to 90 they can still play D1, if that is their dream.

PitchingFan, are you calling me an elitist? I find your choice of words to be rather interesting considering that you are a pastor. 

Pitchingfan,

I think a good idea would be to continue to monitor speeds from those righties and lefties in those lower small D1 programs that UT plays against and you will see a bump up. Jeesh, its just the beginning of season and weather is chilly.  Or maybe the pitching coaches are just not as good as the ones in the SEC! 

In order to play in any college program, you need to get outs.  Period.

PitchingFan posted:

When I say small schools, I'm talking lower smaller schools no matter the conference.  Adbono is right to some extent to the baseball gurus but to those of us who are not elitist it is a point that has not been made on here very much that a guy can be low 80's and pitch D1.  I just have heard on here for years that to play D1 you have to be 90 plus as a rightie, not just recruited but to play.  Even to the extent, that if you are not 90 don't even waste your time trying to be a D1 player.  But this year, I think because mine is playing, I've looked at radar in college a lot more.  And it clicked with me that we are lying to kids and their parents.  In two weeks I have seen 20 plus guys who never came close to 90 and they are living the dream of playing D1 baseball.  You can argue what's the big deal and all that but they are living their D1 dream.  I just think we have put too much emphasis on here that you have to be a certain speed to get there.  I've bought into that in the past but maybe because I was only looking at the top mid majors and P5's.  There are a lot of schools, some very good conference teams, that have midweek guys on their rosters that do not come close to that 90 range.  And I'm sure of them would rather play at a non-competitive lower level D1 than a high level D3 or juco or any other level.  I didn't mean to start a fight and get some people's feathers ruffled.  I'm sure some are upset because their kid or someone they know played at one of these schools and think I'm picking on them.  I just thought it was interesting that our hypothesis is wrong, my hypothesis is wrong.  You can throw it 80 and still pitch at a D1.  Maybe you baseball gurus knew this but it never clicked with me to this extent.  I feel better for the kids I'm working with that are just hitting 80 as sophomores that if they don't get to 90 they can still play D1, if that is their dream.

I wish you and your players all the success, but to think you are going to be "recruited D1" with a mid to even low 80's fastball is a stretch to say the least. Obviously the odds will trend upward the lower/smaller/etc... the D1 program is. It shouldn't come as a surprise that for one reason or another these D1 programs are struggling to sign players which throw 90+. Also it's only *Feb* for crying out loud, lets not jump to drastic conclusions quite yet. 

cabbagedad posted:

Man, I wish I had a dollar for every time this debate has come up here.

I think we have to keep in mind that there is a big difference between a pitcher getting  ACTIVELY RECRUITED to a decent D1 program and a pitcher who happens to find himself pitching in a D1 game.  Two totally different scenarios. 

Most conversations here that reference the need to be at (or close to) 90 are in the context of what it takes to be RECRUITED.  Yes, there are exceptions but that statement still stands fairly true. 

Remember, we also hear time and time again about guys who sit just below 90 who can't get a sniff from decent D1's.  There are many reasons why you will see several P's at D1 that are not throwing 90 in game.  Early/late in the season.  Has to throttle down for movement or command.  Velo regressed instead of developed as projected.  We won't recruit him but give him a chance to earn a spot in fall cuz he seems to get guys out.  Multiple injuries pushes us to use guys well down the bench (who were not recruited/offered $).  Program is not good and has a hard time recruiting decent arms.  Program has little or no scholly $ to offer so competition opens up to walk ons of varying status. Throw the change-of-pace guy.  Loogy (this guy isn't offered much scholly $ or is a guy who was offered the year before but didn't develop, so scholly pulled with offer to remain as a bullpen specialist). Side-armer project. Etc., etc.  

Yes, projectability, movement, command, presence, deception come into play.  But, when the conversation is about likelihood of getting ACTIVELY RECRUITED by a decent D1, it is wise to use the 90 as a general benchmark.  Otherwise, you are most likely steering a young player to fish in the wrong pond.

This right here...........

Everybody is enamored by speed. I ask what is the best pitch in baseball? the answer is strike one no matter what the speed. I heard many years ago the  three most important parts of pitching are location movement and velocity. In that order. Notice velocity is last.. I truly believe that. I recall many years ago playing a team who had a pitcher who did throw hard yes he struck out 9 or 10. Our pitcher not nearly so but he was around the plate all day. By the way we won. The harder throwing pitcher walked 5 or 6 guys  2 of which scored. Our ppitcher no walks maybe 2 strike outs and our guys picked up the ball. I believe the final score was 2-1 in our favor. 

during my coaching days I remember somebody telling me this kid is trying out and he throws really hard. He did throw hard unfortuanetely not over the plate. 

Will posted:

Everybody is enamored by speed. I ask what is the best pitch in baseball? the answer is strike one no matter what the speed. I heard many years ago the  three most important parts of pitching are location movement and velocity. In that order. Notice velocity is last.. I truly believe that. I recall many years ago playing a team who had a pitcher who did throw hard yes he struck out 9 or 10. Our pitcher not nearly so but he was around the plate all day. By the way we won. The harder throwing pitcher walked 5 or 6 guys  2 of which scored. Our ppitcher no walks maybe 2 strike outs and our guys picked up the ball. I believe the final score was 2-1 in our favor. 

during my coaching days I remember somebody telling me this kid is trying out and he throws really hard. He did throw hard unfortuanetely not over the plate. 

 

 

 

 

 

You can think this, but recruiters don't.  If you throw a perfect game and top at 82, no one cares. That's just the truth of college recruiting. I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying its a fact.  There is a reason every RC is carrying a radar gun and why they don't pick it up if a kid isn't obviously throwing hard.

Velo matters, period. When the "crafty" guy has to throw a FB in the zone, 83-86 is very different than 93-96 with or w/o movement. BTW, I love pitchers who can "pitch", master 3-4 pitches and throw them for strikes in any count etc but i'm just a Dad and a fan of the game.

adbono posted:

PitchingFan, are you calling me an elitist? I find your choice of words to be rather interesting considering that you are a pastor. 

You said "I don’t think that’s really newsworthy or helpful information."  My interpretation of that is your opinion is not needed and you provide no value in this.  So yes, elitist.  I have seen a trend lately, as much as I love this site, of a few guys who want it their way or no way and no one else has a valid opinion.  They read into comments or posts what they want rather than what the other person is saying.  I started this post because I have never noticed, even in February, these speeds of pitchers on D1 teams in the past.  I have been around college baseball for the past 20 years and I've never seen even the lower level D1's having as many pitchers throwing low 80's.  I am also, as I stated that some of you have not read, been tracking this for more teams than just the ones that UT plays.  I quoted the ones I have seen live but watch a couple of college games a day.  Maybe, I'm in left field eating a bag of popcorn but I think it is relevant.  We tell guys on here all the time that you have to hit certain numbers to play D1, whether recruited or not, and I just simply stated that the numbers of weekday starters in some D1 schools do not validate that hypothesis but obviously I am wrong according to the experts, you and others.  I don't think those kids care if they were recruited or walked on or snuck in the back door.  They are pitching in D1 games.  Sorry to waste some of you guys time but maybe someone out there needs a glimpse of hope that their dream can still be alive.  That is why I'm on here is to help those trying to live the dream but if this site continues to be a trashing group, I will leave as many others have for the same reasons and I have PM's to prove it.

BTW, my son is definitely not one of the hard throwers.  It made it tough to get offers because he pitched 83-85 most of his HS career.  But he had 5 pitches for location so I understand the ability to locate and change speed.  I have lived out the frustration of being told your kid can't pitch at the highest level because he can't hit 92 or whatever the number is.  My middle one threw gas but had no control and very few other pitches but was recruited because he threw it hard.

I'd say recruiters are going to look at velocity---or potential top-end velocity---above all else, but to actually pitch well you need to be high level in 2 out of 3 in location, velocity, and movement (and at the top level you need all three unless you're elite in two of the three).

PitchingFan posted:

adbono posted:

PitchingFan, are you calling me an elitist? I find your choice of words to be rather interesting considering that you are a pastor. 

You said "I don’t think that’s really newsworthy or helpful information."  My interpretation of that is your opinion is not needed and you provide no value in this.  So yes, elitist.  I have seen a trend lately, as much as I love this site, of a few guys who want it their way or no way and no one else has a valid opinion.  They read into comments or posts what they want rather than what the other person is saying.  I started this post because I have never noticed, even in February, these speeds of pitchers on D1 teams in the past.  I have been around college baseball for the past 20 years and I've never seen even the lower level D1's having as many pitchers throwing low 80's.  I am also, as I stated that some of you have not read, been tracking this for more teams than just the ones that UT plays.  I quoted the ones I have seen live but watch a couple of college games a day.  Maybe, I'm in left field eating a bag of popcorn but I think it is relevant.  We tell guys on here all the time that you have to hit certain numbers to play D1, whether recruited or not, and I just simply stated that the numbers of weekday starters in some D1 schools do not validate that hypothesis but obviously I am wrong according to the experts, you and others.  I don't think those kids care if they were recruited or walked on or snuck in the back door.  They are pitching in D1 games.  Sorry to waste some of you guys time but maybe someone out there needs a glimpse of hope that their dream can still be alive.  That is why I'm on here is to help those trying to live the dream but if this site continues to be a trashing group, I will leave as many others have for the same reasons and I have PM's to prove it.

BTW, my son is definitely not one of the hard throwers.  It made it tough to get offers because he pitched 83-85 most of his HS career.  But he had 5 pitches for location so I understand the ability to locate and change speed.  I have lived out the frustration of being told your kid can't pitch at the highest level because he can't hit 92 or whatever the number is.  My middle one threw gas but had no control and very few other pitches but was recruited because he threw it hard.

I agree with one thing. You are out in LF eating a bag of popcorn. 

There you go.  Thanks for clarifying.  Just what I expected and others do.

Dude take a deep breath - you made me re-read this thread - and nobody seems to be trashing you (at least until that last post, lol). I'm sure 80's in various levels of D1 is pretty common, I've seen it through-out many years. Esp in teams with little depth, the early month of Feb, and games that aren't important yet. 

From personal experience, one situation sticks in my head. I happened to be watching my older cousin play once. There was a pitcher on his team that threw in the low to mid 90's. What I recall was the couple scouts/recruiters that were sitting next to me in the stands would reach for their radar guns when he took the mound. Then quickly lay them back down when he walked off. I thought to myself the other guy pitching was actually really good, he had a good mix of pitches. I would have rather of hit against the flat 90's guy if I had to choose, but the recruiters didn't care. Trust me I'm not saying it's right or trashing you, I'm just saying it's reality.  

Pitchingfan, I see the thread similarly to how ReluctantO's sees it ... just good debate on an often-contested topic.  Adbono has his style and it's not gonna sit comfortably with everyone.  But he also has good background and experience, so plenty of useful information to contribute.  Just pick out what is of value to you and ignore what isn't.  (I do understand that when being directly called out, then it's a bit different.)

I don't know, maybe I am one of the others you are referring to... I do have strong opinions on some topics.  The only time (i think) I really put my foot down with trying to get others to agree with my POV is when theirs might adversely affect our young players.  This might be one of those instances.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you that there are plenty of pitchers that show up on the mound of some D1 games that are not throwing upper 80's or 90+.  Many of the reasons were stated in this thread and several other threads with the same topic.  And many others have taken your side of the debate in previous threads.  "The hypothesis" has been questioned plenty.

But I will continue to debate on a few of your recent comments in this thread...

You said... "I've never seen even the lower level D1's having as many pitchers throwing low 80's.  ... We tell guys on here all the time that you have to hit certain numbers to play D1, whether recruited or not, and I just simply stated that the numbers of weekday starters in some D1 schools do not validate that hypothesis ....  I don't think those kids care if they were recruited or walked on or snuck in the back door.  They are pitching in D1 games.  ...maybe someone out there needs a glimpse of hope that their dream can still be alive.  That is why I'm on here is to help those trying to live the dream"

 Again, not debating that there are guys throwing low 80's - there are.  But I certainly will continue to debate how many that are actually throwing or project to throw low 80's get actively recruited (to decent D1's).  I would also dispute the notion that those kids don't care if recruited or walk on, etc.  Most players and parents going through the recruiting process understand to some degree that walking on is exponentially more risky than being recruited.  The objective for most is to get some level of commitment from the school that the player is wanted and will be part of the program and have the opportunity to contribute at some point.  I also would dispute that a kid doesn't care if a program is non-competitive, as long as it's D1.  Are there exceptions?  Sure.  But I don't think that is the norm.  Most players looking to be recruited D1 are very competitive by nature and would ultimately find playing for a non-competitive program to be unrewarding and tiresome.  So, with those thoughts, we as coaches and advisors would be doing young players and their families a disservice to encourage the player to continue focusing his recruiting efforts on schools/levels that are most likely not going to be a fit and not result in that reasonable assurances they are seeking.  

I have coached dozens who have gone on to pitch in college.  Only once has any of them been recruited to a decent D1 that wasn't 86-87+ and projected higher.  That one exception was still 83-84 LHP who had high a level of success early on in travel ball against strong national competition (BTW, he was the rare kid pitching in the area code games that wasn't at least 87-88+).  I have had dozens more that were very good HS pitchers in a successful program who threw in the low 80's and zero of that group was recruited to a decent D1, or any D1 for that matter.  Most of the first group ultimately ended up at the approximate level they belonged and had some level of success.  When talking with other coaches and following others here (both players and coaches) it seems that my experience is very typical. 

As others have clearly stated, those recruiters just don't look at guys unless they have a certain effective base level of velo.  Otherwise, a good D1 hitter will essentially be sitting on everything the pitcher throws.  A junker can be effective situationally but usually not as a traditional starter that can get you deep into a game.  Situational guys rarely get the recruiting love.

The (close to or project to) 90 number is a benchmark for what to expect recruiters of decent D1 programs to look for.  That's all it is and it has been proven out fairly consistently.  That's what they get excited about and start thinking about throwing money at.  It is not set in stone and, yes, there are exceptions.

So, again, in conclusion, as coaches and advisors, I feel it is our responsibility to help P's target the right pool where they may get some recruiting love, have a decent chance to effectively compete and a very good shot at sticking with the program they choose.  You said you are here to help those trying to live the dream.  Would you really recommend that a kid that projects to throw low 80's primarily targets D1 schools?  I submit that that approach would most often crush the dream.  I feel that part of our job to help fine-tune the dream to the appropriate level of competitive college baseball.  Just my opinion and my experience.  I know you work with pitchers and gather you have had your share of success.  I would be sincerely interested to hear how many low 80's guys you have helped get D1 offers or how many have landed in D1's and found PT by any means.