2022 is a catcher/3b/p. So, speed is not the primary measure but...
He ran a 4.19 30 yard dash at a workout facility and a 4.25 home to first at a showcase. From what I understand, both are good times. These are not times that just show up on his profile.
His PBR 60 time was 7.5. Which is bad. One coach saw his 60 time and already commented on it.
Is this kind of spread normal? Is this something that needs to be improved? Is this something that can be improved?
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I don't think that spread is abnormal. Some kids are quick and some are fast; some are both. If he's a C, 3B and P, I'd argue it doesn't matter much. If he's quick enough to run a 4.2ish Home to 1st/30, he's quick enough to play 3B most places. It might be wise for recruiting to have him to shave one of those positions off the list. 3 very different skill sets and time's ticking for 2022s.
As with any timed running, I'd balance my confidence in their accuracy with a big ol' grain of salt. If any were hand-timed, it's anybody's guess. Then again, I've just recently become skeptical of laser timings as well. When seeing the Home to 1st times that came out of our PBR's most recent event, my eyes popped out of my head. Check this out.
Oct 2019 PBR event + Feb 2020 PBR event = COMBINED produced 3 kids who ran sub 4.0 Home to 1sts. About 125 total participants.
Oct 2020 PBR event produced 13 kids who ran sub 4.0 Home to 1sts. About 35 participants.
Prior to this most recent event, another kid and my son had to the top 2 Home to 1st times in the state at 3.82 and 3.87 respectively. But in that event alone, 5 kids turned in times faster than both of them. Just like that. All the way down to 3.62! My son didn't attend the recent one, so I was dying to find out how many relatives of Usain Bolt were present. No Bolts were on hand. What changed? PBR got a laser timer. Figure that one out!
As fast as my son's Home to 1st time was, it seemingly impressed exactly no one. My experience has been that if a coach cares about your speed, he cares about your 60. @JETSR71 There are things one can do to improve a 60. If you feel his 7.50 is handcuffing him, I'd put extra focus into that. His first few steps are monumentally important in improving it.
For reference, here are how Home to 1st's are supposedly rated. Anything below 4.0 for RHH's is literally off the charts.
Home To First (Right Side):
8: 4.0 seconds
7: 4.1 seconds
6: 4.2 seconds
5: 4.3 seconds
4: 4.4 seconds
3: 4.5 seconds
2: 4.6 seconds
Home To First (Left Side):
8: 3.9 seconds
7: 4.0 seconds
6: 4.1 seconds
5: 4.2 seconds
4: 4.3 seconds
3: 4.4 seconds
2: 4.5 seconds
If the guy can really pitch, or is a good catcher, and can hit the ball for power, then a 7.5 is not that big a deal, IMO.
7.5 as a 3B is a bit of a weakness, but if he has soft hands, and can hammer the ball, no one will care. If he is a smallish contact hitter then it's a bit more of an issue.
Don’t know his times, but my son crushes agility drills. Always the quickest on his HS team. When he played hoops he was always guarding the best player on the other team. Put him on a 60 straight line run though and he’s a 7.4. He hasn’t really done 60 training yet, planning on that in May to try and get a good number this summer. His training now is power and agility.
During one of our Area Code games at Fresno State, the scouts ran the 60 yd for all players. Then I introduced the Fresno State track coach.
He discuss and exhibited to the players "running" form. We timed again and the results showed 5% improvement in the running times.
Many scout believe infielders should be timed in the 40 yd.
"true story"
Bob
Catchers aren't supposed to be fast are they? Neither are corner guys or pitchers? I have no idea why that timing would matter to a recruiter if the player is solid in key areas. I guess it's a bonus if all the chips fall and speed it there or he's faster? My son is a pitcher and was one of the most athletic players on his college roster and excelled in the weight room while being a smaller guy, however, he never really was recruited for anything else but pitching.
@Shoveit4Ks posted:Catchers aren't supposed to be fast are they? Neither are corner guys or pitchers? I have no idea why that timing would matter to a recruiter if the player is solid in key areas. I guess it's a bonus if all the chips fall and speed it there or he's faster? My son is a pitcher and was one of the most athletic players on his college roster and excelled in the weight room while being a smaller guy, however, he never really was recruited for anything else but pitching.
I've seen some of the 2023 C's running sub 7.0. I don't have access to the PG lists, but the kids I know who are top 5 for 2023 are listed at 7.2-7.35.
My son had training in running the 60 here. They got him from 6.8 to 6.55. One question is how much improvement was naturally acquired strength? But he looked smooth running. He also did his rehab therapy here. The one in our area appears to be gone.
Most of his training has been weight lifting and hill sprints. Good for acceleration. No technique training, since he has always been fast enough.
Older son ran a 6.7 without training, so, didn't have to learn with him. Just started the sprint technique/drills videos on the interwebs.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:I've seen some of the 2023 C's running sub 7.0. I don't have access to the PG lists, but the kids I know who are top 5 for 2023 are listed at 7.2-7.35.
‘20 catcher at son’s school was #1 in state, #4 in nation, ran a 7.0x.
#1 nationally ranked ‘21 C, Harry Ford, runs a 6.5 if I remember correctly.
UGA’s ‘22 commit runs a 6.8, I think
The goal for P5/draft HS C’s is now sub 7 for multiple reasons. Doesn’t mean that a 7.4 is going to keep a kid out of LSU (see Jared Jones). But any P5-aspiring C that thinks a mid-7 is good enough, and they should just focus on other aspects, is mistaken.
I agree @Senna. I think this goes along with the knowing which pool to swim in. The 2023 C’s I know committed to P5 have rocket arms and hit a ton. They are all 6’+ and full of muscle. They would probably be getting attention whether they were C’s or CIF. Couple of them will pitch occasionally too.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:I've seen some of the 2023 C's running sub 7.0. I don't have access to the PG lists, but the kids I know who are top 5 for 2023 are listed at 7.2-7.35.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:I've seen some of the 2023 C's running sub 7.0. I don't have access to the PG lists, but the kids I know who are top 5 for 2023 are listed at 7.2-7.35.
My '23 C runs 6.7 per PBR laser timed event last summer. EV over 90 IF Velo 84, OF 88 Catcher Velo high 78 so far.
Not to put too much into rankings but PBR has 7 or 8 catchers (3-4 are probably pitchers) all equivalent or inferior hitters/ arms strength and all well over 7 60s. He is 5'10" and RHH ranked well above him. The kids ranked ahead of him mostly LHH and taller than 6'1. As I look at College rosters, there are plenty of 5'10 catchers starting in good programs over taller kids and they are not mid 7.5 60 guys. They are around 7.0 or well below it. So I do think that running isn't irrelevant for catchers particularly in college where the game is different than HS/Pros due to BBCOR. The one knee deal and all the framing they are teaching requires an athletic kid not backstop.
Considering changing him from C to C/UTL. Any thoughts on that?
@KennieProton posted:My '23 C runs 6.7 per PBR laser timed event last summer. EV over 90 IF Velo 84, OF 88 Catcher Velo high 78 so far.
Not to put too much into rankings but PBR has 7 or 8 catchers (3-4 are probably pitchers) all equivalent or inferior hitters/ arms strength and all well over 7 60s. He is 5'10" and RHH ranked well above him. The kids ranked ahead of him mostly LHH and taller than 6'1. As I look at College rosters, there are plenty of 5'10 catchers starting in good programs over taller kids and they are not mid 7.5 60 guys. They are around 7.0 or well below it. So I do think that running isn't irrelevant for catchers particularly in college where the game is different than HS/Pros due to BBCOR. The one knee deal and all the framing they are teaching requires an athletic kid not backstop.
Considering changing him from C to C/UTL. Any thoughts on that?
Those numbers are better than some of the kids ranked in the top 10 for PG. What does he weigh? My first thought is it is funny how they do those rankings. A P on my son's HS team is trying to get his PG ranking up by attending as many PG events as he can. Funny how that works. I'm sure PBR does is similarly.
Does he play other positions well? If so, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't add secondary positions. My '23 will primarily catch this spring but will play SS when the SS pitches and will also be a reliever on those days. I would think showing that versatility would add value to a recruiter.
Thanks. We did not see a correlation between his numbers at events, attending multiple events in 2019/2020 and his ranking or exposure but that's OK. There's a lot more I could say but I won't. PBR differs in every state and I personally really like and respect our director who we have known for several years.
My kid lives to play catcher and since he was 9 or 10 that's pretty much all he's done other than pitch which stopped a few years ago. One year he was on a very good team and played OF and was great at that. We do work IF (2b/3b) on our won but as a catcher all his time goes into that which worries me a bit. His summer team has a SS committed to a B1g Ten and another to ACC. His HS has 5 D1 OF that he will not unseat so I think that he probably needs to focus on 3b and C.
Kennie;
forgot the numbers, "learn the game", practice "quick feet", "soft hands"!
Read the bat of the "on deck" hitter.
Did you know Willie Mays called the pitches to the catcher from CF.
Bob
Yes. It is an issue. Don’t let others try to tell you otherwise. There are lots of high school catchers these day who are quick and fast, and run sub 7 60’s. Without improvement in that regard, unless he has a cannon arm or an unbelievable bat, he won’t be a D1 recruit.
Theres nothing wrong with that. My kid is a D3 recruit and is thrilled with the opportunity. Just don’t move forward operating on false info or riding the thought that your son might be the exception that proves the rule.
@3and2Fastball posted:Yes. It is an issue. Don’t let others try to tell you otherwise. There are lots of high school catchers these day who are quick and fast, and run sub 7 60’s. Without improvement in that regard, unless he has a cannon arm or an unbelievable bat, he won’t be a D1 recruit.
Theres nothing wrong with that. My kid is a D3 recruit and is thrilled with the opportunity. Just don’t move forward operating on false info or riding the thought that your son might be the exception that proves the rule.
What is the target for a D3 catcher?
@3and2Fastball posted:Yes. It is an issue. Don’t let others try to tell you otherwise. There are lots of high school catchers these day who are quick and fast, and run sub 7 60’s. Without improvement in that regard, unless he has a cannon arm or an unbelievable bat, he won’t be a D1 recruit.
Theres nothing wrong with that. My kid is a D3 recruit and is thrilled with the opportunity. Just don’t move forward operating on false info or riding the thought that your son might be the exception that proves the rule.
Agree. Also great if you are 6'2+ 
@3and2Fastball with all due respect, @JETSR71 did not indicate that their son is looking to go D1. I think everyone would agree that a 7.5 60 would be incredibly difficult to overcome if D1 was the goal. But @JETSR71's son is a 2022 and it's December 10th, so very few 2022 catchers still have a shot at D1 at this point regardless of their 60 times. Most D1's already have a 2022 C committed. And thanks to Covid and decisions by the NCAA and NJCAA, they've got 2019 and 2020 catchers already on campus who are freshmen and will be again next fall.
The mindset that "I'm a catcher (or 3B) so I don't need to be fast" is fraught with risk. He may think he's a catcher, but his future college coach may have other ideas. Coach might like the stick but already have a catcher (or 3B) - what then? If you can't transition to OF or 1B you are probably not going to see the field. It's always better to develop a more complete toolset.
Oh us... baseball dads....it's a sickness we all have...stop overthinking it.
1. Coaches recruit players that they see on the field that interest their need. They don't recruit statistics.
2. He is slow and is not going to get a lot faster, so no amount of discussion or worry is going to change this. Get over it.
3. College programs have about 4 catchers and most of them spend their career in the bullpen. They are a special breed IMO, God love them.
4. What separates the bullpen catchers from those on the field are. 1) Cannon arms 2) Defensive skills 3) Mashers. (preferably LH)
Make sure your son has 2 of the 3 attributes that separate him from the bullpen guys.
Best of luck!
@KennieProton posted:My kid lives to play catcher and since he was 9 or 10 that's pretty much all he's done other than pitch which stopped a few years ago. One year he was on a very good team and played OF and was great at that. We do work IF (2b/3b) on our won but as a catcher all his time goes into that which worries me a bit. His summer team has a SS committed to a B1g Ten and another to ACC. His HS has 5 D1 OF that he will not unseat so I think that he probably needs to focus on 3b and C.
Son was about the same at the same age - primarily played catcher for his travel team though he played other positions (3B, 1B, 2B, OF) as well. JV found him at 3B and C. At the Varsity level he was the starting C his sophomore year, 3B his Junior year and 1B his Senior year. Coach needed his glove in the field and he had another good catcher behind the plate. Was recruited as 1B for D2 Juco where he played DH and 1B his college freshman year and was the starting 1B his sophomore year. Was recruited to a D2 university as 1B, but it was his bat they really liked (hit 27 doubles his sophomore year at JuCo - set the school record). Ended up playing 1B, DH and OF. He played Legion as well and alternated between C and 1B. Legion coach commented that he hit better when not behind the plate.
My point is your son may play catcher now, but time can change things. We found coaches like versatile players that can play multiple positions and can hit.
I have many thoughts on this thread but have been off the grid for a week or so. Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I have a 2022 son who is a C/UT. IMO the only measurable weaknesses in his game is his arm, (73 C velo last July), pop (2.10-2.22 last July), and that he has not played for an elite summer travel team (yet...just accepted a spot on a team that will travel to GA, MO, WI, IN, and more next summer). He is an above average receiver, runs ok (7.19), is 6'4"/190, hits left, and his #1 tool is his bat. He has a 33 ACT and wants to take it again to get a higher score. He has had to grind his way to getting returned emails from schools after sending video and now has a handful of D1's saying, "we would love to see you in person when we are allowed to recruit again or at a camp of ours when we are allowed to host". Keeping the dream alive so he keeps eating, lifting, hitting, throwing, and working on defense...5+ days a week. Its all he can do right now...
Some thoughts on this thread:
1. A HS teammate of mine coaches at an above average mid major (yes he is one of the guys that wants to see my kid in person). Asked him about 60 times and he told me his slowest player is their 1B who runs a 7.35 (at 6'5"/235).
2. Not all D1's are done at catcher. Most of the P5's are set but imo there are plenty of spots left.
3. Spoke with a relative of my best friend who is an RC at an elite mid major a couple months ago (and already has his 2022 C) and he told me that next summer could/should be wild for recruiting. He said all those kids who have been #committed better be improved just as much or more than their peers that are #uncommitted. After not seeing their guys play for in some cases 18 months and having all of those #jucoroute kids + all the new kids that have added 6" and 30-50 lbs of muscle and all sorts of tools he thinks that there will be all sorts of hearts broken and bunches of kids decommitted.
4. The kid loves to catch and hopes to do so in college and beyond but he knows that its possible that won't be the case. He might find that there is an elite Catcher blocking his way to playing time or another situation that is unknown at this time. He is working at both corner IF/OF as well. Being a DH or regular bat off the bench or late inning defensive replacement would be a great thing to be able to do as a young college player.
5. Speed matters. So do all other measurables. My goal for my son is to not have any measurable be a disqualifying one. BOF talked about picking 2/3 of cannon arm, defensive skills, or masher. Clearly it helps to be able to hit but not being a liability in any area helps your elite skills continue to stick out. Dont want any of your liabilities to overshadow your elite skill(s).
I appreciate all that you folks offer in dialogue, advice, and information. Thank you!
