Quiz - Base Running

No outs--B.  Freeze and watch the play develop

 

1 out-- D. Fake a break to the plate [a few steps, and then stop, as if you're hung up.]

 

2 outs-- A. Immediately try to score

 

 

I'm assuming you will post the "correct" answer once you get enough replies. 

 

I'm going with "A" in part because some of the answeres just don't look right AND I'm taking a test and have to pick an answer given how the question was worded.  "Go back to 3B" implies a passive baserunning strategy.  "Fake a break" implies trying to draw a throw in an effort to tag the test taker allowing runners to be safe at 1st and 2nd - any maybe third if you execute very well selling the fake and getting back on base.  "Freeze" just doesn't sound good anytime.  "None of the above" just opens it up to too many nuances and hopefully the test preparer isn't using this as a trick question (at least for us folks who perhaps have not been exposed to "your" approach).  Is this were an ACT test, I'd pick "A" because I can discount some of the other answers.

 

All that said, I am intriuged by which one is "correct" according to the answer sheet.  The answer must be based on two conditions (1st/3rd with grounder back to pitcher) and therefore must hold up under all circumstances including score and # of outs not to mention a whole basket of situational nuances such as opponent's strength (fielding, pitching) or perhaps even pitch count (say full count, 2 outs bottom of 9th trailing 2-3).

I pick "C".  Just don't think you want to make ANY out at home or third regardless of the number of outs.  Your best chances of scoring are with a runner at 3rd and you don't want to sacrifice that runner for one of the other runners.

Based on this -- "on the way we wanted to play" I'd pick E because I have no idea what the situation is and what "your" way is.

I'll go with A so as to avoid the double play in the case of 0 or 1 outs, and in the case of 2 outs it is moot.

Well, since I'm 50 now I would take A, but would probably be the third out of a 1-6-3-2 triple play.

 

Actually, I agree with freddy77.

Redsdad,

 

Well it isn't really my way, it is the correct way.

 

You pick the situation that you want with runners on 1st and 3rd and a ground ball back to the pitcher.  The correct answer is the same in "almost" every situation.

My total inexperience and lack of knowledge chooses D...fake break and make the pitcher question if he can really afford to throw that ball to first for the out. (At least now all the answers will be emailed to me )

gotcha...I think I will sit this one since we are in an "almost every situation" scenario.  I'd be one of the freshman to get it wrong.

+1 If they want to go for the 1-6-3 DP, I'll take my run. If they want the out at the plate, I'll take 1&2 if there are less than 2 outs.

I go with A in every situation, if they go for you with no/1 outs, you try to stay in play long enough to get runners to 2nd and 3rd

I'm sticking with "A".

 

2 outs - might as well see if you can bait the pitcher into throwing into a tag play (as opposed to easy 3rd out at first)

 

1 out - again, bait the pitcher to throw into a tag play and prevent double play to end the inning.

 

0 outs - make opponent execute tag play.  Worst case you end up with 1 out runners at 1st/2nd.  Might also end up with 1 run while opponent attempts double play.

With second and third, I always had a sign for a contact play. R3 has to know that if he's beat badly to the plate by the ball he needs to get into a rundown. R2 needs to know he's headed to third and sticking there - no retreating back to second. BR needs to know he has to hustle up the line and get to second during all of this. Bottom line is that you might get lucky and get a bad throw to home and, if not, you end up just switching runners at 2&3.

I guess we have to start by assuming it will in fact be a double play.  That there is no way the batter will beat the throw to first.  In that case I would go to score and make them play at the plate.  Then stay alive to get runners to 2nd and 3rd.  However on some levels with a fast runner at 3rd he could fake then pick a throw to advance and score.

No outs you go home. 

1 outs you go home.

2 outs you go home. 

 

Easy like that. 

I go B. As soon as the pitcher turns to throw to 2nd I break home and now make the MI make a decision.

 

A isn't get in a run down... It says try to score. That is head down full speed.

Those of us who answered get in a rundown are of course assuming an on target throw which will afford you no chance of actually scoring.  Remember it is hit back to the pitcher.  But if we stay strictly with the question due to run expectancy numbers we would always choose A.

This is how I would proceed...

I am not really sure the answer you are looking for.  

But I would go with bottom of the 9th, score is tied. Two outs.

Pitchers sometimes are not accurate on their throws, so I would either fake a break to the plate (D) or take off  immediately, also hoping that the pitcher would throw inaccurately.

But then again what do I know being a pitchers parent!

I think it really depends on the level of ball; to me, for advanced players, the correct play is to head back toward third.  If it is a comebacker, the pitcher has time to look the runner back at third and the runner should not get caught off the base or in a rundown.  If he then spins and throws to second (less than two outs), the runner on third goes home and will score if they fail to turn two.

       
       
See now I think it is just the opposite.  At advanced levels go hard to the plate and stay out of the double play.  1st and 2nd with one out represents a better scoring opportunity than man on third two outs.  But in youth ball or lower level hs I would habe hom fake, hold, and go on the throw.

Yes because all of the great baseball minds agree 100% of the time....

+ Another ~ I'm going with B as well.

I think if we assume a high level of play (where the SS has a good arm and the double play is likely) the default play would seem to be A.  I don't think hold and wait works with a good SS.  He will be able to throw you out at home after the out at second.  The question assumes there is a play that is generally the right call no matter the situation.  So it should be the correct call whether the defense is going to go for a double play or definitely coming home.

Situation One:  No out, top of first.  99% of the time defense will trade the run for two outs.  So if you run, you will score.  If they come home and get you at home, then it will be one out but you still have a runner is scoring position.

Situation Two:  Bottom Nine, winning run at third.  No out: If you don;t go, double play, then its runner on third 2 outs.  One out:  Double, inning over.  Two out:  you have to go.

 

 

 

What would you do as the pitcher in this situation?  

 

The runner on third is taking a secondary lead down the line on the pitch.  On a comebacker, you are looking the runner back, no?  If the runner freezes after taking his secondary lead, he is pretty far down the line and you can run at him and make him commit to a base, and likely will have him in a pickle.

 

If he breaks for home, I say there is no way he is safe unless it is a slow roller, like a swinging bunt or something.  But on a comebacker, he isn't scoring unless it's an errant throw.

 

Even if there are two outs and the pitcher has no need to look the runner back, the runner does not need to break for home right away, because he is only going to score if there is an errant throw to first.  The runner at third can easily score after an initial step back toward third and then break for home once the pitcher begins his throw to first.

 

Now, let's say there are less than two outs; on a comebacker, there is definitely time for a DP, right?  But does the pitcher have time to look back the runner before making the throw to second?  I say yes.  So, I believe the pitcher's first priority is to always look the runner back at third.  What if the runner on first was stealing on the pitch?  The pitcher will have to make a judgment call as to whether he can get him at second now.  If he looks the runner back at third and the runner on first is stealing, he has to go to first (unless there is a play at third due to the runner straying too far).

 

Anyone with me on this?

 

Unless you have the slowest runners possible there is no time to look the runner back.  Depending on the score either concede the run or concede the double play.  Got to pick one or the other.  This is not a have your cake and eat it too situation.

Not true.  My son's college team has a ton of VERY fast runners.  This situation happened this past weekend.  1st and 3rd no outs.  Ball back to pitcher, looked the runner on 3rd back and got the DP.  If runner had broken for home, he would have been out by a long shot.

And his team ended up with a runner on third with two outs, which gave the team less than half the chance of scoring it would have had with runners on first and second with one out. The runner on third saved himself, but didn't help the team. He should have gone.

What swampboy said...  PG time to come back and give us your answer.  I am dying to post the run expectancy matrix but don't want to steal your thunder!

I probably agree with Coach's assessment and vote for B.  If the same letter applies for most situations, I eliminate C, as I would not go back to third on a comebacker with two outs. "A" puts too much emphasis on the baserunner (some are good some not). With D I guess the thought is that a break off third would distract the P enough not to make the 1-6-3 DP (if # of outs allow). Somehow I think "E" could be an answer with a conditional (if...then)

You never know.  In this case, the next batter reached on an infield single to score the runner from third.  Wouldn't have scored if we left runners on 1st & 2nd.  Another scenario could have proved otherwise.  It's baseball, you never know what's going to happen next.

 

Guess we'll find out when PG finally gives us the "correct" answer.

 

Waiting with baited breath.

If you are the runner on third in a first and third situation and you do anything other than break for the plate, you let the defense either end the inning or roll a double play without giving up a run. 

 

If you attempt to score, you force the defense to make a decision under pressure and to execute it. And the worst outcome for your team is no worse than the likely outcome of options B, C, or D.

 

Option A all the way.

Going back to StructureDoc's post, the PITCHER has a choice to make.  HE needs to care about how many outs, the inning, the score, what the runner from third is doing, the speed of the runners, etc.  HE needs to make an immediate decision and HE needs to execute properly as soon as he does.

 

The runner on third? He doesn't have to decide anything. His job is to put his head down, run hard, and force the pitcher to make a decision.

 

Again, Option A all the way.

 

 

alright PG can you just let us know now?

I'm no expert, great question, stimulates thought (and maybe some second-guessing).

2 outs is easy, everyone runs.

1 out, if a good/speedy BR, fake hard for home to try and draw the throw (if throw to 3B, get back), if throw goes elsewhere, go home immediately; but...

if runner at 3B is obviously not speedy, freeze to see what develops but be ready to go back to 3B.

0 outs, speedy runner: go for home/broke.non-speedy runner, fake hard to draw the throw, go home if throw goes elsewhere.

See I can't dismiss the number of outs AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL, at least. The assumption of the double play just can't be as concrete. The execution of a 1-6-3 DP in HS isn't as common as what's being thrown around here.

 

While I understand the percentages, what's also being discounted is the potential PB or the pressure put on the catcher/coach calling pitches when worrying about a PB. A runner at 3b in HS is a substantial advantage in both the ways that he can score and the pressure it puts on the pitcher/catcher.

 

If you guarantee me that I'm trading 1 out at the plate for 2 on the bases it's an easy decision, just not sure it's that simple.

 

Ironhorse some excellent points.  But some food for thought.  There was a thread not long ago about trick plays.  I responded I would not do anything on the youth or lower level hs that I wouldn't do if I were a college coach.  The game is the game.  I believe we teach them how its done at the highest levels.  Now I get that there arw some teams you could benefit by adding a little confusion or scoring on a throw etc.  But would you beat the best team in the state that way?  Does it prepare your kids for the next level of baseball?  I have always told p layers and parents alike we are preparing to beat the great teams.  You shouldn't have to change your SOP to beat bad teams!

If we're looking for a universal answer that works with any number of outs, then it's "A", IMO.

Ironhorse,

I would ask you to consider the flip side of your description of an easily rattled, pressure allergic high school team that can't turn a 1-6-3 and whose catcher can't be trusted not to have a passed ball with a runner on third.

 

It seems to me you just made an eloquent argument in favor of Option A because it puts MORE pressure on the suspect defense.

 

Why should we believe a pitcher-catcher tandem that can't be trusted to execute a clean pitch would be able to execute a throw-catch-tag play on a runner who had a good lead, a good secondary, and broke hard the moment the batted ball showed a ground ball trajectory? That pitcher who you think can't be trusted to wheel and throw accurately to second base, now has to react to the sudden realization that he has a choice to make, change his plan, reset his feet, and make a good throw to the catcher who you think is prone to passed balls. The catcher has to get properly positioned, receive the ball, and make the tag on a runner, who, by doing his job right, has created a bang-bang play.  Make them execute.