Radar readings

Welcome,
Well the fastest that ball will ever travel after being pitched is when it leave's the Hand.
And that's the reading there looking at.
Radar gun's are differant.
Most use the Stalker.
Radar is looking at feed back.
So i'm not sure if it matter's were the gun is placed.
EH

There is an effect from the radar gun being off line with the axis of the pitch. This is referred to as cosine error. A google search will reveal sites that have tables showing the exact cosine error for given angles.

The radar is reading the peak speed measured. Depending upon the sampling rate of the radar device, this will be close to release.

Thanks for your reply and the welcome.

I now understand that the gun will pick up with fastest speed, which of course will be out of hand.

So, looking at this setup:

Catcher


Pitcher


Gun

It would seem that depending on the angle that the radar intersected the pitch which most likly depending on how the gun is angled will be well after the pitch leaves the hand, would result in slower readings. It seemed like a strange way to use the radar gun.

Correction:

Gun is angled off to the side of the pitcher, not directly behind it.

Radar gun should be positioned roughly behind the catcher or behind the pitcher in line with the ball's flight. An angle of 10 degrees will reduce only 1 mph from the reading.

A Stalker Sport will clock a baseball 300 feet away. Naturally, the normal way to scout a game is behind the catcher, although the rarely-seen $1700 Stalker Pro could probably do the job from center Field with its 400 foot range.

Some pro scouts like to measure pitchers with the gun on the pitching arm side of the catcher. I can't imagine that would make much difference. The angle difference would only be about 2 degrees and the catcher's body rarely blocks the launching of the pitch.

In clocking behind the pitcher, the gun must be kept roughly in line with the ball's flight. The gun shouldn't be alongside the pitcher but rather well behind him and only slightly off to the side.

quote:

The scouts must have a uniform way of doing it, or the results would not be comparable.

I think each scout has his own uniform method. He's mainly trying to compare pitchers with hundreds of others he's seen/gunned over the years.

As Texan said, a quality gun will lock onto the fastest reading it sees.

I would really like to understand these guns. My son was clocked last fall at 86 on a Stalker. Two weeks ago he was clocked at 85. Yesterday he was clocked at 80. He is getting frustrated and thinks maybe the radar guns are just having trouble picking up the ball. He has been known to hide the ball very well and scouts have commented that they have noticed that he hides the ball.

I just can't see how there can be that much variance in velocities. Does a certain arm angle help the radar gun pick up the pitch? Are there certain do's and don'ts when dealing with these guns. It seems funny that a 12-6 curve can have a huge break but read just a couple mph lower than a fastball. I just don't understand. Any input would be appreciated.

Baller26,
You and your son are getting way too caught up in a radar gun reading when you should be focusing on your son and your son should be focusing on his game. I’m not surprised that your son is frustrated. Did you ever consider that his frustration could be a factor in his velocity fluctuations? A frustrated pitcher is tense --- tries too hard --- and could self destruct. Work hard ar the game and LET it happen ---don’t try to MAKE it happen.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by endlessSummer:
Could someone please explain if thier is an "industry standard" with regard to obtaining a radar reading on a pitched ball. Since the ball slows down as it moves along its path, depending on where the reading is taken, the speed will vary greatly. Do the scouts try to get an "out of hand" reading, or something else?

The other day I saw some pitchers being "gunned" and the person was standing behind the pitcher and off to one side and pointed the gun toward the catcher. I would think that this would be a slower reading than if the person was behind the catcher and pointing at the pitcher thus being able to get a reading shortly after it left the pitchers hand.

The scouts must have a uniform way of doing it, or the results would not be comparable.

Thanks for your help

You don't need to worry about a scout standing behind the pitcher . Last I heard, only players and umpires are on the field. He will be behind home plate and he will be using a gun that gets the reading of the ball coming out of the pitchers hand. He will get a bunch of readings......the fastest, the slowest and the average speed until he is satisfied that his readings are consistant and accurate.

Fungo, I do understand what your saying. The odd thing is the kid is most dominant when he just pitches and doesn't worry about the gun. But when he does that he averages 2K's an inning. Then all we hear is you are too slow. You are only throwing low 80's. But batters you hear saying "man he is fast". He just looks smooth and explosive.

Then he can make changes and can hit 86 but doesn't seem as dominant. Your right I really wish we could just forget the stupid gun. The problem is that virtually every college coach is grading off that gun reading. I have even had coaches call and say "if you hit this number, I would sign you on the spot". Its more of a situation now of hit the stupid number, sign, then pitch how it really works. So Fungo, I guess we can't just forget the gun. And he has been looked at by 2 different pitching coaches and they say his mechanics are near flawless. I even have pictures by a high speed digital camera and you do not see the ball until after it is released.

The best way to evaluate a pitcher is to watch what he does against a good hitter. What kind of swings did that hitter get off of him. A coach that fails to look at this area, will never consistently have a successful program. I will take a pitcher over a thrower any day (although someone lighting it up will get my attention as a possible project.) When you get a pitcher with solid mechanics and good velocity...you have struck gold. Depending on then age, build, and mechanics of your son, low to mid eighties would be a great building block that could blossom into the 90's.

I totally agree but he is a Senior. Only about 5'10 so from the "protype pitcher" he is small. He is left handed. Basically his pitching coach (main one) says just get to 86-88 and you should be set. And yes I have sat there in the stands and heard the comments. "Boy he can pitch but is small or not real fast." The pitching coach has several D1's and pro players to his credit. What he has said so far has been fairly accurate. Does a player that hides the ball have a disadvantage dealing with a radar gun? I know I have read that the peak speed is while the ball is still in the hand. This makes sense due to the fact that the split second the ball leaves the pitchers hand, the force that propels the ball is removed.

Baller,

My son sounds very much like yours but he's a year behind. I find it very frustrating that you hear "be effective, locate, get outs", so they do, sub 2 ERA, then you go to a camp or showcase and are totally overlooked for the guy who's 6'4"+ and throwing 90+ who isn't "effective".

I attened a high school game a few years ago to see the local HOT prospect. He could bring it 98 on the gun. He lasted 3 innings due to the walks and the deep hole his team was in. But..the scouts loved what they saw. Oh well?!?!

quote:

Originally posted by Baller26:
Does a player that hides the ball have a disadvantage dealing with a radar gun?

No.

Endlesssummer, welcome.

B26,
Forgive me, but if a college coach told my son "if you hit this certain number I will sign you on the spot", I am pretty sure my son would decline any offer, hitting the number or not.
Does hitting that certain # mean the school where that coach is coming from is a good fit for your son?
It seems to me from your post, you are basing the right fit for your son on his velocity.

I think Fungo gives good insight. Forget the gun. Have your son focus on his strengths as a pitcher instead of worrying about his velocity. A coach will sign him for what he likes about him and what he accomplishes in getting hitters out, no matter what his velocity is.

This is just my feelings on the matter and I do not know your son's entire situation, but, I coached my own brother through high school and he was in the exact same situation. My advice is to find a quality JuCo program and let him go there and eat up innings and develop a little more speed while showing coaches at the college level that he can get hitters out. Unless the perfect situation comes along, he could find himself struggling for innings in the attempt to prove himself and it sounds as if he is a quality pitcher who would get frustrated by this. A couple years at JuCo and he will have his opportunity to prove it to them. It worked out well for my brother who landed a DI full ride. Just my advice; best wishes.

hsballcoach,

I tip my hat to you! I’m a firm believer in JUCOs, and NAIA schools as well, and can’t believe more ball players don’t take advantage of what they can offer.

So many people get all caught up in the big D1 programs, they forget there’s a myriad of other opportunities out there that give them the chance to get in a lot of PT. Something getting more and more common out this way is, rather than take a partial to a big school, but have to redshirt then sit for a couple of years, kid just go the JUCO route.

At only $20 an hour for classes, they don’t generally need a scholarship, but the big thing is, they get to play, not sit and watch.

For anyone interested in Ca JUCOs take a look at http://spincostats.com/CommunityCollegeBaseball/2006/index.html

There’s a heck of a lot of schools, which translates to a heck of a lot of opportunities.

Don't get me wrong, being able to throw at high speeds is very important in some cases, but just concentrating on throwing hard is like those guys who can drive a golf ball in those competitions, its cool and all but it wont win you a masters.

Most of us agree with you Zack, but what if they told the golfer, you can play in the Master's unless you can hit it 400 yards? Who would be playing then?

It seems to most of us that our kids are being told that if you aspire to play at the highest level of baseball, for your age; as a pitcher, speed is the most important factor. True that smaller schools (colleges) and smaller program will take a slower, control pitcher, they'd still take the high speed guy if they could.