Raise revenue or cut costs? One solution could do both — and save college baseball

The idea has been posted on here before. It's a nice idea, but what they aren't considering is:

Students will not attend games (at all) after the first week in May as they go home for finals. 

Travel Ball/summer begins - more traveling away from home field for ticket buyers. When you have kids in school you can go to a weekend game if the schedule allows. When you have a summer full of weekend tournaments and showcases that becomes harder and less likely. 

Housing costs - I assume this alone would void any money saved. Dorm housing ends the week finals are over. Off campus players almost always have leases that end June 1. Who is paying for the housing, extended meal plans, etc? How are schools supposed to host camps/showcases tournaments when they have weekend home series and daily practice? 

If they came forward and said - southern teams have a weather advantage, I think baseball would be more competitive if we gave the colder weather programs a later start date - I would say great idea. But to frame it as cost saving - I don't see it. There are a ton of other issues like summer classes, redshirts, transfers, summer leagues, etc. If anything I would prefer to see the season start the first weekend in March and be extended and week or two on the back end. 

@PABaseball posted:

The idea has been posted on here before. It's a nice idea, but what they aren't considering is:

Students will not attend games (at all) after the first week in May as they go home for finals. 

Travel Ball/summer begins - more traveling away from home field for ticket buyers. When you have kids in school you can go to a weekend game if the schedule allows. When you have a summer full of weekend tournaments and showcases that becomes harder and less likely. 

Housing costs - I assume this alone would void any money saved. Dorm housing ends the week finals are over. Off campus players almost always have leases that end June 1. Who is paying for the housing, extended meal plans, etc? How are schools supposed to host camps/showcases tournaments when they have weekend home series and daily practice? 

If they came forward and said - southern teams have a weather advantage, I think baseball would be more competitive if we gave the colder weather programs a later start date - I would say great idea. But to frame it as cost saving - I don't see it. There are a ton of other issues like summer classes, redshirts, transfers, summer leagues, etc. If anything I would prefer to see the season start the first weekend in March and be extended and week or two on the back end. 

The article speaks to some of the points that you've raised.

Note, I don't think they care about summer league, they would probably like their players to have a 30 day break before coming back to campus. 

Note, the challenge would be those players that didn't get quality reps during the season not being about to get needed reps in the summer  required to compete in the fall.  The coach know who he will be using, thus he could send the players early to get some summer league reps.

What is the issue with redshirts, all you do is slide the date.

With respects to players thinking about transfers, again I don't they care if the player has a smaller window to make a decision to transfer. It will give the school more leverage in controlling his resources.

College Summer Camps would be a concern because this is were the assistant coaches make additional $$$.

IMHO,  their objective is to advance their business model, the other businesses work around the College Baseball schedule will have to adjust, some might be eliminated.

Based on The Baseball Observer there are more than 70 collegiate summer leagues.

Note, https://www.thebaseballobserve...r-collegiate-leagues

The is no silver bullet, but the early start is a joke.

I agree that a business model argument can be made for later baseball.  However, the vast majority of College students aren't around during the summer.  I believe that the primary purpose of College sports is to enhance the College atmosphere for athletes and students.  Sports during the summer (what College sports take place during the summer?) does not contribute to that. 

What I think is somewhat plausible compromise is to have all regular season games during the College school year, and then have all playoff games (Conference and then NCAA Regionals) after the school year is done for most schools. 

@Viking0 posted:

I agree that a business model argument can be made for later baseball.  However, the vast majority of College students aren't around during the summer.  I believe that the primary purpose of College sports is to enhance the College atmosphere for athletes and students.  Sports during the summer (what College sports take place during the summer?) does not contribute to that. 

What I think is somewhat plausible compromise is to have all regular season games during the College school year, and then have all playoff games (Conference and then NCAA Regionals) after the school year is done for most schools. 

If I understand, your main point is that college baseball should reduce their regular season schedule by 10 to 20 games.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

The article speaks to some of the points that you've raised...

I don't think coaches care about summer leagues either. It had more to do with redshirts. If you're not getting any playing time or even traveling with the team do you join a summer league while your school finishes the season? Do you stick with your team thru regionals while reps and playing time pass you by in the form of summer leagues. Does the school pay for your summer housing if you're not playing? 

I never cared for summer leagues honestly. I know the players are not fans of them either, but I understand why they might be considered a necessary evil. If they went away tomorrow I wouldn't lose  sleep over it. I'd actually prefer an extended college season in lieu of shipping them off for the summer. But it is something that would have to be addressed. 

Problems arise when you're told in Jan you're being redshirted. Now you have to miss the season, summer ball and try to land a spot to transfer to. Some schools bring students back in early August, that's a tough situation. 

I do think the Feb start is wild though. There was absolutely no thought put into that. 

@PABaseball posted:

I don't think coaches care about summer leagues either. It had more to do with redshirts. If you're not getting any playing time or even traveling with the team do you join a summer league while your school finishes the season? Do you stick with your team thru regionals while reps and playing time pass you by in the form of summer leagues. Does the school pay for your summer housing if you're not playing? 

I never cared for summer leagues honestly. I know the players are not fans of them either, but I understand why they might be considered a necessary evil. If they went away tomorrow I wouldn't lose  sleep over it. I'd actually prefer an extended college season in lieu of shipping them off for the summer. But it is something that would have to be addressed. 

Problems arise when you're told in Jan you're being redshirted. Now you have to miss the season, summer ball and try to land a spot to transfer to. Some schools bring students back in early August, that's a tough situation. 

I do think the Feb start is wild though. There was absolutely no thought put into that. 

You make good points.

Is the coach committed towards your development, if so he will place you in a summer league. Note, redshirted player will know the commitment of said coach based on the league (internship) the coach assigns him.

The player should ask this question, whenever he is told that he will be redshirted.

Note, I understand collegiate summer league commitments occur earlier. So technically, regardless of being redshirted, the student can use some data points to determine his projected value in the program. 

Note, I don't fully know the contractual hand off between the players and the collegiate summer league.

With respects to the timing of when the redshirted player starts summer ball should be discussed and agreed upon.

The player needs to look at college experience like a business.  They will have to grow up quickly.

This is just a random process thought.

If a college team is anywhere near a major or minor league park what fans are going to attend these college games? A lot of college programs don’t draw fans in May even when the weather is good. 

@RJM posted:

If a college team is anywhere near a major or minor league park what fans are going to attend these college games? A lot of college programs don’t draw fans in May even when the weather is good. 

I would think that was discussed. 

Nothing is 100%, expect 80% / 20%.

How many major league teams are there?

How many minor league teams?  How many teams are being cut? ~40

How many independent Teams? ~

How many collegiate summer league?  ~73

Kiss method. 

The existing schedule does not provide a equal distribution.  Why do players for the northeast and midwest head South and West?  Warmer weather.

With a change in schedule, one of the impacts will be high school players will consider staying closer to home. If they stay closer to home, people might come to see players that they followed in high school.

Don't think about how it currently is, think about where it might go.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

I would think that was discussed. 

Nothing is 100%, expect 80% / 20%.

How many major league teams are there?

How many minor league teams?  How many teams are being cut? ~40

How many independent Teams? ~

How many collegiate summer league?  ~73

Kiss method. 

The existing schedule does not provide a equal distribution.  Why do players for the northeast and midwest head South and West?  Warmer weather.

With a change in schedule, one of the impacts will be high school players will consider staying closer to home. If they stay closer to home, people might come to see players that they followed in high school.

Don't think about how it currently is, think about where it might go.

 

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

I would think that was discussed. 

Nothing is 100%, expect 80% / 20%.

How many major league teams are there?

How many minor league teams?  How many teams are being cut? ~40

How many independent Teams? ~

How many collegiate summer league?  ~73

Kiss method. 

The existing schedule does not provide a equal distribution.  Why do players for the northeast and midwest head South and West?  Warmer weather.

With a change in schedule, one of the impacts will be high school players will consider staying closer to home. If they stay closer to home, people might come to see players that they followed in high school.

Don't think about how it currently is, think about where it might go.

 

I don’t believe a shift in the season would promote playing closer to home. First, most players do play within a few hundred miles of home. Then, they are away playing college summer ball under the current set up. They’re accustomed to being away from home.

@RJM posted:

I don’t believe a shift in the season would promote playing closer to home. First most players do play within a few hundred miles of home. Then, they are away playing college summer ball under the current set up. They’re accustomed to being away from home.

You are correct most stay within a certain radius.

I'm going to pin point directly towards NCAA-D1 Pitchers.

Do the stud pitchers stay local or go elsewhere and why do they go?

Although the image does not render well on this website, here are some numbers

In 2020, there were 74 freshman pitchers from  NJ on NCAA-D1 rosters. NJ has 8 teams,   only 15 freshman on these teams.

Pennsylvania   numbers  - 60 Total, 12 freshman pitchers playing in PA, 9 colleges

Illinios   numbers  - 49 Total, 17 freshman pitchers playing in PA, 10 colleges

With respects to collegiate summer ball, they are accustomed toward going way because of the current structure.  If the NCAA-D1 adopts the plan, that structure will have to  change, maybe summer baseball is very limited or eliminated.

Longer ramp up in the spring is a great and nice to have. Letting the guys get deeper into school and coursework and another great benefit. Less classes missed, yet another. Less injuries to pitchers. Another great benefit. The benefits definitely outweigh the costs to most programs. Especially if you bring in the intangibles. 

Colleges don't make much money on the student attendees as they do the families and businesses. Student tickets are discounted.  Agree not a lot of students might not attend regional play after finals but I think you would be surprised by the local families and businesses that would. And it if takes off and you're in a good area, why not promote summer school and therefore more tuition to the schools for folks sticking around to take extra classes. In town spending money. Boosts the economy.

If you've listened to any of the pod casts they talk about the dorm thing and expenses and the travel money saved by northern teams is offset by the housing cost. That's for the northern teams. The southern teams are going to complain about it. But they get to save the $10-20K in guarantee money. Guess what though, only 16 teams go beyond July. 16 of the now 299. The rest are done in June. So it's 1 month of housing and food. With increased ticket sales and attendance after basketball, more concessions. If you make it into July. You're making more money with ticket sales, merch and concessions, etc. Marketing. Do the teams get any of the TV money for CWS or share of it? Bonus for making the playoffs and CWS?

Something has to change or more programs will be lost. Period. These guys are trying to bring positive change to baseball and fiscal longevity to keep their and brother programs off the chopping block. 

If you don't like a portion of the plan, what is your solution?  Plenty of opportunity for the public and programs to chime in on it. 

Much easier to edit than create. They did a bang up job so far.

@Eokerholm posted:

Longer ramp up in the spring is a great and nice to have. Letting the guys get deeper into school and coursework and another great benefit. Less classes missed, yet another. Less injuries to pitchers. Another great benefit. The benefits definitely outweigh the costs to most programs. Especially if you bring in the intangibles. 

Colleges don't make much money on the student attendees as they do the families and businesses. Student tickets are discounted.  Agree not a lot of students might not attend regional play after finals but I think you would be surprised by the local families and businesses that would. And it if takes off and you're in a good area, why not promote summer school and therefore more tuition to the schools for folks sticking around to take extra classes. In town spending money. Boosts the economy.

If you've listened to any of the pod casts they talk about the dorm thing and expenses and the travel money saved by northern teams is offset by the housing cost. That's for the northern teams. The southern teams are going to complain about it. But they get to save the $10-20K in guarantee money. Guess what though, only 16 teams go beyond July. 16 of the now 299. The rest are done in June. So it's 1 month of housing and food. With increased ticket sales and attendance after basketball, more concessions. If you make it into July. You're making more money with ticket sales, merch and concessions, etc. Marketing. Do the teams get any of the TV money for CWS or share of it? Bonus for making the playoffs and CWS?

Something has to change or more programs will be lost. Period. These guys are trying to bring positive change to baseball and fiscal longevity to keep their and brother programs off the chopping block. 

If you don't like a portion of the plan, what is your solution?  Plenty of opportunity for the public and programs to chime in on it. 

Much easier to edit than create. They did a bang up job so far.

 

@Eokerholm  your analysis is pretty detailed and makes a lot of sense.   It will be interesting with the longer ramp up, if the local blue chip pitcher stays in state, note the pitching coach will be the most sought after professional resource in the northeast.

With respects to gate attendance, if they are able to keep the blue chip home grown talent, that they saw on the high school level, they will be interested in seeing them perform at a college level.

Especially if they are within a 60 min drive.   You know the parents and grandparents will show up.

Bottom line, something has to change.

Good stuff

Be aware that once school ends and the closer you get to summer, attendance drops dramatically. So will regionals. Not so much for the programs that pack the stadiums, but in general college baseball doesn't fill the seats.  School ends in early May, so generally many D1 programs play about a month past that date.  

I think that a lot of coaches like the longer ramp up time for pitchers.  

I live in a warm weather state so it's really tough to see the benefits of changing the  baseball calendar.

JMO

I haven't heard talk about this but perhaps you look to move the start of the season back 2 or 3 weeks, drop the number of games to say 46 and still keep year end schedule close to what it is now.  The savings from reducing the total number of games, travel etc may make sense since the vast majority of schools are not making any revenue on baseball.  It would obviously hurt some of the P5 programs that draw well, but for the majority of the 295+ D1 programs it could be the difference between keeping programs or not.  I also think that conference realignment may be needed for non-revenue producing sports to minimize travel and expenses.  The ripple effects of COVID are going to continue for years to come.

@FriarFred posted:

I haven't heard talk about this but perhaps you look to move the start of the season back 2 or 3 weeks, drop the number of games to say 46 and still keep year end schedule close to what it is now.  The savings from reducing the total number of games, travel etc may make sense since the vast majority of schools are not making any revenue on baseball.  It would obviously hurt some of the P5 programs that draw well, but for the majority of the 295+ D1 programs it could be the difference between keeping programs or not.  I also think that conference realignment may be needed for non-revenue producing sports to minimize travel and expenses.  The ripple effects of COVID are going to continue for years to come.

I have posted this once but will again.  Years ago the season began last weekend in February.  Teams from the north complained that warm weather programs got to practice outside. So they moved it back a few weeks.

While many programs up north now have indoor facilities, many don't, so it will never be equal opportunity.

As far as I know there is no restriction on the max amount of games for next year. 

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

If I understand, your main point is that college baseball should reduce their regular season schedule by 10 to 20 games.

I just found that nearly all postseason play where I am is after classes are done.  Basically, my point is that IMO, College Sports should be more focused on improving the student experience than making money.  Football and Basketball make so much money that it changes the calculus somewhat on that.  However, they still mostly take place when students are on campus. As an administrator at a University, the reasons given that we put money towards athletics (to the tune of approximately $1000/student) is that it improves the student experience and thus enrollment.  Making money is a part of things, but IMO, it needs to be second.

@Viking0 posted:

I just found that nearly all postseason play where I am is after classes are done.  Basically, my point is that IMO, College Sports should be more focused on improving the student experience than making money.  Football and Basketball make so much money that it changes the calculus somewhat on that.  However, they still mostly take place when students are on campus. As an administrator at a University, the reasons given that we put money towards athletics (to the tune of approximately $1000/student) is that it improves the student experience and thus enrollment.  Making money is a part of things, but IMO, it needs to be second.

Great post Viking, thank you.

1. @Viking0 posted:

I just found that nearly all postseason play where I am is after classes are done.  Basically, my point is that IMO, College Sports should be more focused on improving the student experience than making money.  Football and Basketball make so much money that it changes the calculus somewhat on that.  However, they still mostly take place when students are on campus. As an administrator at a University, the reasons given that we put money towards athletics (to the tune of approximately $1000/student) is that it improves the student experience and thus enrollment.  Making money is a part of things, but IMO, it needs to be second.

Football brings in a lot of money preventing major financial loss in many programs. Plenty of the FBS football programs lose money. That footballs pays all the bills for college sports is a myth. 

@Viking0 posted:

As an administrator at a University, the reasons given that we put money towards athletics (to the tune of approximately $1000/student) is that it improves the student experience and thus enrollment.  Making money is a part of things, but IMO, it needs to be second.

I agree; but it seems that there are two issues here, one is making money (which probably won't change that much for baseball either way), and one is spending less money.  Travel=money, so less travel means less money spent.   Cold weather schools really can't play baseball at home until spring break, so the fact that they are playing down south in February does nothing for the student experience on their own campus.  Then, their baseball fields sit fairly empty during the summer.  Football players have to come back in the summer, to prepare for a season that starts when the semester does, so that's not part of the "student experience" either.  

We sometimes sit with parents from the visiting northeast teams and they LOVE coming to Florida, as do the players.   

Just sayin..........

@TPM posted:

We sometimes sit with parents from the visiting northeast teams and they LOVE coming to Florida, as do the players.   

Just sayin..........

 

They love visiting florida because they are not picking up the full cost of their student-athlete traveling.  The non-athlete student has some hidden cost in their tuition absorb some of this cost.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

They love visiting florida because they are not picking up the full cost of their student-athlete traveling.  The non-athlete student has some hidden cost in their tuition absorb some of this cost.

They love the team discount at the hotel as well. 

Funny story. Years ago when son was @Clemson, team came to Coral Gables to play UM. 

On saturday before the night game,  parents who came into town, took the boys to Haulover, the nude part of the beach and to South Beach after the game.

Parents and boys loved every minute of their visit!

These trips make great memories, no matter where you go, north, south, east, west, it's all part of the experience.

@TPM posted:

They love the team discount at the hotel as well. 

Funny story. Years ago when son was @Clemson, team came to Coral Gables to play UM. 

On saturday before the night game,  parents who came into town, took the boys to Haulover, the nude part of the beach and to South Beach after the game.

Parents and boys loved every minute of their visit!

These trips make great memories, no matter where you go, north, south, east, west, it's all part of the experience.

Good one.  How did they do that night?

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Good one.  How did they do that night?

I will be honest, I don't remember, that was in 2005. Will have to look it up.

@TPM posted:

I will be honest, I don't remember, that was in 2005. Will have to look it up.

If your son went 3 for 4, with 2 rbi's,  then it was a good distraction. 

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

If your son went 3 for 4, with 2 rbi's,  then it was a good distraction. 

Pitcher