Raising Kids With Too Much Self Esteem

       
       
I would set that number a bit shy of 100%, but I agree 100% with you that its ok to disagree.  Now I fear I am walking.into something with the fork and spoon thing but what the heck I will play.  If we are imagining ourself as an animate piece of silverware I would rather be a fork to better defend myself.  If you are asking what I would rather have I would choose spoon cause some things you cant eat with a fork!

I may have missed that Coach May said his players were 10 years old. I thought that since they "won state" they were older. And I fully understand and agree with you, joliet and TPM, that there is clearly value in finishing strong but not winning. It teaches important lessons. But I also understand and love the approach Coach May and Roothog took -- because they obviously got those boys to reach the pinnacle.

 

I think if we were all in a pub, having a drink and talking about this, we wouldn't be very far apart. In some circumstances, celebrating 2nd place is good; in some, it's not. 

 

(But for the record - the BIG youth baseball tournament held in the Dallas suburb of Flower Mound each year, where the organizers hand out trophies to the top 20 teams in dozens of bracket (and who once gave JP a HUGE trophy for 13th place) .... Dat's not good

Which reminds me of an old Irish curse - "May it be raining whiskey in your back yard, and you out there with a fork!"

It wasn't the fact we lost. It was the fact we gave a lackluster effort and didn't deserve to be rewarded for it. I lost games as a HS coach and was proud of my team. I won games as a HS coach and was furious. I know that doesn't make sense to some people. Ask Kentucky if they will be happy with 2nd place. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.I don't mind if no one does. I demand the best. I demand all you have. I don't believe in rewarded anything less. If we were a third place team in that field and played our best they would have a third place trophy.

 

Ok thats good jp maybe you missed they were 10.
I really am not sure I disapprove of participation trophies for youth players. Most of these kids might never see another trophy in their lifetime.

Ok CM I hear ya...so who would you rather be, the fork or spoon.
ps hint...this is a jack leggett story...

       
       
So I played...  when do I get my answer?!!

Lol..in time.

According to my second-grade niece, TPM:

 

When we come to a fork in the road, we don’t waste time wishing it was a spoon! 

 

Close??

No...

The whole "trophy" things is way overblown.  Yes, little kids like to get stuff.  They think its "cool."   No kid becomes entitled because he got a trophy back in t-ball.  By the time they are teenagers, those trophies become targets. The kids know who was in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd -- you can't fool them with a piece of plastic.  I remember in our kids rec. basketball league they wouldn't keep standings.  Guess what, the kids knew. 

 

Winning is a confluence of many factors -- talent, depth, hard work, a little luck, etc.  The important things is how you played.  Did you compete?  Did you get better?  Don't let winning the local youth league championship be the highlight of your life.  It's a fleeting moment -- move on to bigger and better things.  Don't be peaked in high school Rob Lowe.   

The head coach son went to play for is one of the winniest (if thats a word) coaches in college baseball.

I think in 3 years he raised his voice once after a loss that was totally embarrasing to him and the program.  It happens. He was one of those coaches that did stuff then you had to figure out what the lesson was.  Sometimes you never did figure it out until later, for son it was often in pro ball.  Like a lightbulb would go off in his head, hey i got why you did that..years later. Lol

During sons second season the young tigers were going into the ACC tourney ranked pretty high in the polls.  Those rankings are great but there is a lot of pressure and I suppose the coaches have to keep the team focused and grounded.

So the team heads to Jacksonville in May for the ACC tourney. Exceptionally warm Memorial Day Weekend.  High 90s with lots of rain and high humidity expected.

Because of the rain, our evening game with Miami (ACC tourney favorite) was postponed until the following morning.  You could tell they were feeling the heat literally. Pressue.

 

When teams travel coaches leave instructions posted on their hotel door. Instructions that morning were to dress for practice in wool jerseys.  At 9 am that morning it was already close to mid nineties with 100% humidity and coach wants us to wear WHAT!?

 

So imagine what the other team was thinking while watching those silly Tigers practice in wool! Must have thought they were crazy. They were laughing.

 

After shower and ready to go onto the field,  came the speech about the wool jerseys they wore for practice. He compared the experience to a fork vs spoon. The spoons job is less difficult, wearing light practice jerseys would have been more comfy but its ok to sweat and have to be uncomfortable and put in a difficult situation..  You dont get ahead in life if you dont work hard for what you want, sweat a bit, get out of your comfort zone..  Winning is all about putting in lots of hard work and often times feeling uncomfortable. So before you go out to play this game, think about what you accomplished and decide if you want to be a spoon or a fork. The temperature reached over 100 on the field but the Tigers beat the Canes and took the ACC championship.  

 

This became a standard discussion in our home when faced with adversity, do you wanna be a spoon or a fork.   I know son told me he thought about this often so I know that it left an impact.

 

Sounds silly but think about giving the spoon vs fork speech, in any situation, let your kids decide who they prefer to be.......

 

 

An olympic wrestler won a silver medal and threw it in the trash can.  Head coach at West Virginia now.  I have no idea if he dug it out later or someone else did.  My wife dated a guy in high school who had to wrestle this guy.  He always said his greatest accomplishment was not being pinned by him.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with giving a kid under maybe 12 years old a participation trophy. The trophy itself hurts nothing.  Here is my reasoning:  If a kid thinks it's awesome to win a trophy "for just showing up" then there were entitlement issues long before that trophy was placed in their hand.  It starts with the parents.  Our kids knew how good their team was, and where they stood with the other teams. They knew the difference in a participation trophy, and a first or second place trophy.

 

My son is a sophomore away playing college ball.  Played and succeeded playing in the largest school classification in Missouri.  Went to Georgia and made the WWBA al tournament team.  We recently repainted his room and had to move all his trophies and medals from the top shelf of his closet.  Including the dreaded participation trophies.  Reminiscing about his past, everyone was there from every season that I could remember.  I was more upset that I had to move the junk to paint rather than him keeping his participation trophies.  I called him and asked what he wanted me to do with them.  He said to keep them, he would go through them later.  I hope he succeeds in life.

 

I make no apologies for my son.  He is not an "A" student.  I found that out in middle school.  He never was and never will be.  There are issues there.  But he works hard at school and harder at baseball.  He likes his participation trophies.  Brings back memories for him.  But he does like the first place ones better.  He will move out someday and probably take them with him.  Even though he doesnt get all A's, and didnt throw his trophies away, I think he will turn out just fine.

My other son who swims finished 6th in the state in 1000 freestyle for 11/12 year olds.  That got him on the podium (top 8).  He had best time among 11 year olds in the entire state.  Very proud of that 6th place.  And just a side note here...  If we think nothing but first place is good enough, might we be raising our kids with too much self esteem?  Remember there is a flip side to everything.  Telling Johnny he is great when he is not is wrong.  But the flip side telling johnny he is too good for second place is also wrong.  Give Johnny a realistic outlook or where he is and where he needs to go.  Then the chips fall where they may.  And also I am just not sure (on a good team not rec ball where you have some kids who just dont want to be there) I have ever seen a kid not go as hard as he can to catch a fly ball, never seen a kid not trying to get a hit at the plate, or a pitcher not trying to get hitters out.  Sometimes kids make bad decisions and blow the game that way.  It is frustrating but it is also part of being human.  A teaching moment for sure but not something to get upset about.  As a coach I can tell you I have blown a few, hopefully not too many, games with bad decisions.  And afterwards I have owned up to that to my team.  I am sure glad they didn't berate me for that!!

Perhaps this should be a separate topic thread, but I think there's also a neglected place for good manners in baseball (learning social skills and how you present yourself to both team mates, opponents and adults). This came home to me last night after picking up son from practice and an additional hour of weight training the team integrates into their program.

   Son was new to the conditioning part, and coach running it asked him his name. Promptly several players called out "Yo! That's ***!" ( an acquired nickname on the team). Son's response to the coach was " ***** ****, ma'am."

   Nothing wrong with the nickname, we love his. But it was just the way he presented himself to her. Respect and good manners go a long way to showing maturity, I think. Thank God he learned them.

Joliet, if you're not first, your last. 

I am assuming this is said somewhat tongue in cheek...  Don't get me wrong I am a fierce competitor. But I will fall back on my favorite Gordie Gillespie quote which is how I try to run my coaching and parenting life...  "winning isn't everything but making the effort to win is".  RIP Gordie.

I like the way the rec program my youngest plays for handles the whole participation trophy issue...

 

For the younger kids, rather than a trophy- the kids get a souvenir of some sort. Bobbleheads with the program logo one year, picture frames another year.  Along with that for the younger kids, all players get a team and individual photo. Actual trophies go to the teams making the spring championship game.

 

When we moved a year ago, my oldest got rid of about 40 trophies he had picked up over the years.  Some small participation trophies, some big tournament winning trophies. He didn't want them cluttering up his new room.  

 

He also had about 3 dozen "game balls" in his closet.  All of those went into the cage bucket.  

The tournament you mention is a good example of how circumstances matter. For those not familiar, they use a drop down bracket format. Very strange. After pool, they enter brackets. If you continue winning, you're in the top 8 teams in the Platinum bracket. Lose and you fall to Silver. Lose again, you fall to Gold. Even once you get to Gold, you're still playing for the Gold Championship. Then they give out pretty big trophies for every spot within each bracket. For example, you lose every game (go 0-7) and you're "Fourth place Gold." My teams have been in it three times. The first year, we were a 10u team playing 11u. We lost our first couple of bracket games after going 1-1-1 inpool and won the next two to win the 11u Gold bracket championship. It came with big trophies and, to be honest, we celebrated. There are a lot of good teams in that tourney and the kids fought hard in brackets. That "Gold Championship" felt like a significant accomplishment for us and it was. I'm still as proud of that effort as any of the championships we took over the years. The next season, we lost a hard game in the first bracket round, wound up in Silver, limped along and lost in the Silver championship game. Big trophies. Meant nothin. Hollow accomplishment. Then, at 13u, we pulled an upset in the first round against the overwhelming tourney favorite who was a top-10 nationally ranked team. Then we rolled through a few more rounds into the championship where we were trounced by a powerhouse. Second place. Big trophies. That tournament, I will always consider our absolute best effort. I'm very proud of that one. So, it always is circumstantial.

 

As to "participation trophies," I've never looked negatively on them. I've considered them less of trophies and more of momentos of the season. However, I'm not sure we've ever given one out. I always give gifts at the end of the season instead of trophies.

You have homework this weekend -- go watch "Rickey Bobby." 

An athlete (or team) isn't always going to be the best and come in first. But I see participation trophies as an insult to self esteem. They're a lie. "You stink. Have a trophy."

 

What makes winners (athlete or team) is doing your best. It's important to prepare as much as possible.** It's important to play as hard as possible. It's important to leave it all on the field. An athlete/team should never come off the field answering "yes" to "could I have done more?"

 

Sometimes the other team will be better no matter how well you prepare and play. Sometimes an athlete comes to realize he's not that great at a particular sport no matter how hard he tries. But if a person approaches life with a prepare as hard as possible and compete as hard as possible they will find success in life. Success will be earned, not awarded.

 

** Some people don't understand as hard as possible. They believe putting in the required time is "as hard as possible." Middle school teammates laughed at my son for practicing with me after games. Parents accused me of abusing him. He was the one who wanted the practice. His attitude was "we're here at the field." He was the one who was the first sophomore opening day starter in six years at the high school.

Reading through these recent posts, something occurred to me. My employer, a Fortune 20 company, recognizes strong performance with discretionary individual annual bonuses from a pre-established pool of money.

 

And the thing is, even if one is not THE top performer, he or she can get good individual bonuses.

 

Kinda like finishing something-other-than-first.

 

 

DANG! Maybe I need to rethink this whole thing.

 

But then, average performers do NOT get discretionary pay, so maybe not.

 

After reading through this thread, there are so many great points, it looks like everyone is on the same page, winning isn't everything but making the effort is. The path to a State Championship is a marathon, especially for 10/11 yr olds. Several great coaches saw they had special teams capable of finishing strong but had a lapse of making the effort to win. The coaches utilized an effective motivational technique to help these boys over the hump. These anecdotes were one time scenarios, not a standard practice for any time a team came in third.

 

Participation trophies have an expiration date. I do not feel that they are a problem at the younger ages. (In our house, when my oldest was 12 and re-vamped his bedroom, he removed all participation trophies because, in his words, "they were not earned". He then proceeded to sell them to his youngest brother $1 apiece.) It is when the parents and adults in the community continue that mentality into the pre-teen and teen years that it becomes a dis-service to the kids themselves. From what I have observed, when these kids eventually meet adversity, they tend towards either narcissism, blaming everyone else for their failure, or plummeting self-esteem. It is important for our kids to learn how to win and how to lose, how to say 'No' and how to receive a 'No'...all with grace, manners and kindness.

 

As to the "spoiling" of kids, from what I have read on this site, it appears everyone is on the same page as well. I recognize a difference in training time required in athletics today from when I was growing up. Strong work ethics in our children for schoolwork, athletic training and family responsibilities is heavily valued here. If our kids are pulling their weight in the family, keeping their grades and test scores as strong as they are capable of, putting in the time and effort to continue to improve their game and give 100+% on the field, we are going to buy the new glove and/or bat when needed.

 

I believe narcissism is being bred at a much higher rate than the past, in many of the ways the article suggests, but not so much here  Perhaps we all need to direct some more families this way...I know I have learned SO much about the challenging road ahead. It is impossible not to be humbled after reading this site. Thank you all.

Any time the discussion regarding success and failure (often confused with winning and losing) comes up I find it helpful to go to John Wooden:

Don't measure yourself by what you have accomplished, but by what you should have accomplished with your  ability.

 

With the Wizard's typical style this is both simple and true.  It captures the essence of many of the posts on this subject IMO.  Do this and there should be no regrets for anyone involved.