RBI

quote:

Originally posted by mildon:
Can someone help me with figuring RBI. What effect does an error or errors have on RBI? For example, batter comes up with bases loaded and hits a double that scores two runs but because the outfielder misplays the ball all four runs score. Is there anywhere to look that explains scoring and in particular RBI. Thanks

If the run is scored because of the error made the batter only gets the RBI's for the first 2 runs, the 3rd run is scored on the error.

quote:

Originally posted by mildon:
Can someone help me with figuring RBI. What effect does an error or errors have on RBI? For example, batter comes up with bases loaded and hits a double that scores two runs but because the outfielder misplays the ball all four runs score. Is there anywhere to look that explains scoring and in particular RBI. Thanks

TigerParent probably had the right answer, but I think you’re looking for someplace where you can read it.

To begin with, I have to add my standard admonishment. What rule book was the game played under? In general, on this board the standard is to ether be NFHS(HS), NCAA(College), or OBR(MLB).

If I had the NFHS book available electronically, I’d give you that reference, but since I type horribly and slowly. I’ll give you what OBR says, and the reference to where its at in the NFHS book.

You can usually figure out RBI’s pretty easily if you take the play very slowly.

Bases loaded. Batter gets a safe hit to the OF. BR goes to 1st, all the others move up one base because of the hit. RBI#1.

BR goes to 2nd on the same safe hit. That causes the runners remaining to move up again, and for another run to score. RBI#2

Those 2 are easy because they come under 10.04(a) and are pretty straightforward.

Now we have a situation where the play’s still going on and there has to be an effort to watch what’s going on. You say the OF’r misplays the ball, but there is some other information that might well make a difference to the scoring.

FI, how many outs were there, and who was the runner? Here’s the reason that’s important. Usually, with 2 outs, a runner will take off like a madman on any ball that’s hit. That’s how they’re trained. This is only a general statement, but normally, a normal double to the OF with 2 outs will score just about any runner from 1st.

If that’s the case, chances are I’m gonna give the batter the 3rd RBI. Now if the 3rd run is the slowest kid on the team and barely makes it in, that’s different, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.

Now here’s where thing’s get a bit tricky. If you look at 10.04(d) and read the last sentence, I think if you were paying attention to the play, you can get a pretty good idea whether or not to score the 3rd RBI or not. Yes I know 10.04(d) doesn’t cover this situation exactly, but its pretty darn close, so I don’t have a problem extrapolating it for what I need.

The 4th RBI is moot. There can’t be one because he moved past 2nd on an error.

So there ya pretty much have it. There are definitely 2, and depending on the situation, it may well be 3.

The NFHS rule is nowhere near as clear. Its 9-3-5.

Hope that gets you in the ballpark.

OBR 2006 - RUNS BATTED IN
10.04
(a) Credit the batter with a run batted in for every run which reaches home base because of the batter’s safe hit, sacrifice bunt, sacrifice fly, infield out or fielder’s choice; or which is forced over the plate by reason of the batter becoming a runner with the bases full (on a base on balls, or an award of first base for being touched by a pitched ball, or for interference or obstruction).
(1) Credit a run batted in for the run scored by the batter who hits a home run. Credit a run batted in for each runner who is on base when the home run is hit and who scores ahead of the batter who hits the home run.
(2) Credit a run batted in for the run scored when, before two are out, an error is made on a play on which a runner from third base ordinarily would score.
(b) Do not credit a run batted in when the batter grounds into a force double play or a reverse force double play.
(c) Do not credit a run batted in when a fielder is charged with an error because he muffs a throw at first base which would have completed a force double play.
(d) Scorer’s judgment must determine whether a run batted in shall be credited for a run which scores when a fielder holds the ball, or throws to a wrong base. Ordinarily, if the runner keeps going, credit a run batted in; if the runner stops and takes off again when he notices the misplay, credit the run as scored on a fielder’s choice.

Thanks for the information. One other clarification. A batter only gets credit for a sacrafice fly if a runner comes home from third, correct? A fly ball to right that advances a runner to third does not apply if I am reading the NFHS rules correctly.

That's true under every rule set I know of.

And FWIW, I think its BS! If a Batter can get a sac for a bunt that move a runner up on any base, why shouldn’t a batter get a sac fly for moving a runner up from any base too?

Actually, I don’t have a big problem with it happening the way it does, but I truly wish they’d change the name of the Sac fly to something other than “sacrifice”. Sacrifice implies the batter purposely gave himself up to advance a runner. I don’t know of many guys who hit 400’ fly out on purpose. Maybe they could call it an “RBI Fly”.

By the same token, why isn’t a batter who hits a ground ball that scores a runner given credit for a sac grounder? Isn’t it much more likely that a batter will try to hit a grounder behind a runner than a fly ball?

There certainly are a lot of rules we mere mortals think could be better, but waddaryagonnado? The baseball Gods have spoken!

2006 OBR 10.09(e) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a fly ball or a line drive handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield which
(1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or
(2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer’s judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught.
NOTE: Score a sacrifice fly in accordance with 10.09 (e) (2) even though another runner is forced out by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
That's true under every rule set I know of.

And FWIW, I think its BS! If a Batter can get a sac for a bunt that move a runner up on any base, why shouldn’t a batter get a sac fly for moving a runner up from any base too?

Actually, I don’t have a big problem with it happening the way it does, but I truly wish they’d change the name of the Sac fly to something other than “sacrifice”. Sacrifice implies the batter

purposely gave himself up to advance a runner. I don’t know of many guys who hit 400’ fly out on purpose. Maybe they could call it an “RBI Fly”.

By the same token, why isn’t a batter who hits a ground ball that scores a runner given credit for a sac grounder? Isn’t it much more likely that a batter will try to hit a grounder behind a runner than a fly ball?

There certainly are a lot of rules we mere mortals think could be better, but waddaryagonnado? The baseball Gods have spoken!

2006 OBR 10.09(e) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a fly ball or a line drive handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield which
(1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or
(2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer’s judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught.
NOTE: Score a sacrifice fly in accordance with 10.09 (e) (2) even though another runner is forced out by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

There is a reason why the Fly Ball that moves a runner up but no score will never be the same as a sac bunt. That is simply because you are instructed or choose to attempt a sacrifice bunt because it is a complete different approach at the plate verse swinging away and just so happened to go to a fielder who catches it and a runner has the opportunity to advance but not score. The difference is the change in approach. A bunt attempt had to receive it's own catergory different from a typical swinging the bat that just so happen to give a runner on 1st or 2nd the opportunity to steal a base because of their speed or how far away the fielder was from the runner attempting a steal. The word "Sacrifice" is that you are attempting to get on or move runners by not swinging at a pitch.

Hope this helps!

quote:

Originally posted by TigerParent:
There is a reason why the Fly Ball that moves a runner up but no score will never be the same as a sac bunt. That is simply because you are instructed or choose to attempt a sacrifice bunt because it is a complete different approach at the plate verse swinging away and just so happened to go to a fielder who catches it and a runner has the opportunity to advance but not score. The difference is the change in approach. A bunt attempt had to receive it's own catergory different from a typical swinging the bat that just so happen to give a runner on 1st or 2nd the opportunity to steal a base because of their speed or how far away the fielder was from the runner attempting a steal. The word "Sacrifice" is that you are attempting to get on or move runners by not swinging at a pitch.

Hope this helps!

I’m curious. Did you find that in some reference book? If so, what was it?

I’ve come across a couple of such books, but never really a good one that explained the thinking behind every rule.

quote:

Originally posted by TigerParent:The word "Sacrifice" is that you are attempting to get on or move runners by not swinging at a pitch.

If that’s so, I wonder why the sac fly is also given the “sacrifice” label.

Its all pretty interesting though, isn’t it?