RC is hot, HC is cool. What to do?

While we never received an email from the HC by mistake we have had situations where the RC liked 2014 and HC did not... It happens... we would not slam the door shut on said school but would definitely move on.  Being a 2018 you have plenty of time to change HC mind but I would not spend on this school....Also the RC may be at a another school in a year of two and that school might be better than the first school. 

 

It just takes one program to like you and you them... just keep moving through the process

I've always been a believer in this notion.  Building a relationship with an RC at a school you may actually not be that interested in may still be worth the effort because there is always the chance that he may take another job at a school you are interested in.  Not necessarily a legit strategy per se, but falls under the old adage, "luck is the byproduct of hard work."  And the RC popping up at a different school a year from now you are very interested in is a motivation, will not deny that.  Great point.

We had a similar experience with one school.  RC responded to son's contact with much enthusiasm.  "You fit an immediate need very well and you need to contact HC right away..".  Son contacted HC who was less energetic, less positive and on a different timeline.  I think, to some extent anyway, it is the nature of the two positions.  The RC is responsible for getting as many good prospects interested in the program as he can.  The HC then has to narrow the field.

 

With your son, what has changed since that email?  Good velo gains?  Any other progress on any specifics that were stated?  Would it make sense for your son to have a direct conversation with the RC expressing interest but remaining concerns that HC doesn't seem to have much interest in him? 

 

That email the HC sent could actually prove to be a great measuring stick for this particular school as to exactly where your son needs to be in order to be wanted.  It is a great focal point for productive specific dialog.  Then, as bacdor alluded, you can avoid the spend and time if the strength of interest isn't reciprocated by the decision-maker.

 

Also, I definitely agree with bacdor in keeping good dialog with at least RC who is in your camp.  Things can change with either RC, HC or both.

 

Its the RCs job to sell your son to the HC. The HC signs the NLI and gives out the scholarship money.  

Your son is a 2018, why are you worrying about this now. Sorry I would never have sent a video of son to any coach unless he was a stud. Don't show off your skills until ready and for most that doesn't happen until junior year unless he is a standout.

 

Interesting.... I'd focus on other opportunities, just periodic emails to RC with skill progress with and video.

 

Separately, I'm surprised with the personal level of the email from the RC given your son is a 2018.  Normally any responses to kids that young in the recruiting timeline will only get responses identifying future camps or clinics and "thanks for the email". (Independent of the inadvertent email from the HC)

 

Your 2018 is getting an eye opening early for how tough the process is and how coach's are running a business to build a program.  It's all still grow a business and manage your P & L.

Cabbage Dad wrote: Would it make sense for your son to have a direct conversation with the RC expressing interest but remaining concerns that HC doesn't seem to have much interest in him? 

 

That email the HC sent could actually prove to be a great measuring stick for this particular school as to exactly where your son needs to be in order to be wanted.  It is a great focal point for productive specific dialog.  Then, as bacdor alluded, you can avoid the spend and time if the strength of interest isn't reciprocated by the decision-maker.

 

This.

The school in question is a high academic D-1 that does not offer athletic scholarships.  I too noted the liberal back and forth between RC and 2018, myself; much more than the NCAA allowed camp invites and camp info, etc.  I just chalked it up to that fact and they must be allowed to communicate a little more since no athletic money on the table?

Not sure about the D3 , but D2 and D1 cannot open dialogue with a 2018

> On Nov 26, 2015, at 11:44 AM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

I guess I am one for fate, and would probably move on from that school. RC and HC have to be on the same page.  Things happen for a reason.

My 2015 is a contact hitter (consistently 95%) and he struck out twice during a college camp of one of his top schools- looked terrible at the plate. He could tell by their reception towards the end of the camp, that he had "moved down on their board." He ended up signing with a school in the same conference which turns out is the perfect fit for son.

For OP, it was early though (a 2018 hasn't even played 2 HS seasons yet). Definitely take words incorrectly send to player and use it as a motivation to improve and work hard! As other posters noted, coaches come and go. RC from 2 of my son's top 10 moved on (one we still haven't located, the other went to a service academy) before his recruiting journey ended. 

Gotcha..  Nevertheless, good motivation for your son to bust his butt.  Likely thickening his skin as well.

Email was addressed TO ASSISTANT COACH and reads: "Dear AC: From this video...don't love him.....looks like a very poor level of play......does he say what his velocity is?" 

 

Funny thing is, I really don't know what the HC actually meant when he referenced "poor level of play?"  I don't mean to put on rose-colored glasses but my interpretation is the coach is talking about the batters son is striking out.  The video was a highlight video of 2018 RHP pitching a Complete Game 1-hitter with 8-Ks last spring.  As a freshman playing on HS varsity.  Son has already made two recruit visits to two ACCs, and three mid-majors.  I find it hard to believe coach's phrase of "poor level of play" was directed at son given the attention he has already received?  "Poor level" is pretty harsh a descriptor.  I was thinking he was directing it at the batters on the other team?  So, the fact that son had a CG win with 8-Ks didn't really impress him, due to the "poor level of play."  Sort of a back-handed negative remark, but negative regardless. 

 

All subject to interpretation, but I believe one interpretation is a lot worse than the other.  If HC was saying that the batters 2018 was K-ing were "poor level of play" then I'd say son still has a shot.  But if the HC was thinking son was at a "poor level of play" then that is a pretty strong opinion directed at a  kid who has already visited two ACCs, a three mid-majors.  Bizarre. 

 

Mystery.

 

I would bet he is talking about the batters. That is why he wants to know the velocity because it all looks a little too easy for your son. I don't really see how it should effect your son's approach at all. If the RC were to reply "velocity 86+", the HC would like your son a whole lot more in an instant. He should just keep working and let things fall into place.

 

Good luck,

 

Ted

From a softball perspective but hope it helps.  My daughter was being recruited by a RC that had seen her play in a tournament in Tennessee.  Everything through the TB Coach.  HC was going to see her play in a tournament in Kansas.  She dropped her squat rack the day before the tournament and was hurt.  She actually fell backwards over the bar and hurt her back.  HC goes to TB Coach and asked to see her pitch.  TB Coach tells him she is hurt but would ask her she would give it a try.  I was not at the game at that time but was on the way.  Daughter wants to impress HC about not being soft.  She pitches but is not sharp.  No matter how many times HC saw her play after that, and it was a lot, he never got over that first impression.  Turns out it was good for us as daughter's best friend did go to that school and hated it. 

One more piece of advice... don't take it personal. This stuff is business at it's best. Find what will be best for your kid; where they love him and he'll get a good education. Don't fall in love with anything either, as it's bound to break your heart. Just find that place where your son will be able to be at his best and they want him the most.

But tell him to remember this event, in case he faces that school down the road.

I'm with TPM on this one.With a 2018 I wouldn't be sweating anything w/ colleges. And NO video. Just my 2 cents, My 2016 has played with one of the top Travel ball/ college development programs in the country ( ranked #5 in US by PG ) and as a program they have a college recruitment adviser that imposed a NO VIDEO policy. The thinking behind that is that you don't get offers from quality programs via video. Also, the general thinking is that the more a coach watches you play the more they find wrong with the player. Not just watching video....but in person too! Program adviser firmly believes you let them know where you are playing, inquire what events they are attending and PLAY in front of them. Once a school see's you play a couple of times and doesn't offer, that's it. They are not interested. Move on.That is their philosophy. And it works.This program just had 46 of their 2016's ( including mine) sign NLI's a few weeks ago.

With a 2018 there is plenty of time. Also, a 2018 is NOT what he will be in 2 years. And I don't mean just from a baseball developmental standpoint. I mean as a young man. Emotionally and intellectually...so what's the rush.

My 2016 was offered back in fall of 2014. He was caught up in the whole 'early commit means I'm a stud' mentality. Let me tell you something, it's different once you get the offer. Mine was not sufficiently sophisticated enough to really make a decision. He hadn't even played his JR season in HS yet. Making a decision about where you are going to live and go to college for 4 years is a BIG decision and trying to make that decision 2 years in advance is maddening. My son quickly realized that he was not ready for that. That is the reality. Or at least my experience.

WAY too much pressure on these kids to perform for 'Offers' at an age where if they actually got the offer they really wouldn't know what the hell to do about it. The truth is that your blue chip guys go early then the rest of the good players get most their looks summer before their senior year. That is just how the system works. It's how the recruiting timeline is and the RC's work accordingly. Yes, most big programs ( PAC-12 , ACC etc ) are well into the 2017 class and are looking 2018 but those are the exceptions not the rule.There are approx 900 NCAA baseball programs and maybe 4% are into 2018's. Maybe. And if a player is looking at high academic ball, that is a whole other timeline that lines up with test scores after 11th grade.Most academic schools recruit late based on today's standards and make no mistake test scores matter.

Another piece of unsolicited advice: When a college wants a player they make their intentions crystal clear. There is NO ambiguity whatsoever. It's REALLY important for players and parents to know that. Conversely, if a player has been seen by a school and has not been offered it means they are not prepared to offer the player.That is important because kids and unfortunately parents find a certain sense of security in the 'camp invite', 'Fill out our prospect data sheet' emails. Those emails DO NOT signify interest in the player.Those emails are computer generated and mean nothing. Honestly, at my house its now like spam. My son committed back in June and still receives 40-50 emails a week. All the same, Camp invite, program updates, etc. What means something are PHONE CALLS from a RC and emails only if the email is personalized and very specific. These emails are generally short and involve questions

" Can you get me updated SAT scores' or "I'm at PG/Evoshield this week,  can you please text me when you are scheduled to play and what field locations? " These type of phone calls/texts/emails are for PROSPECTS. Guys they are considering offering. And if a players age doesn't fall under NCAA contact rules, it's not important. RC's  will contact a players HS or travel ball coach with the same phone calls and emails if that player is a legitimate prospect.

The thing is too many players and parents misread interest. Once again, if they like the player you will know. They will express that interest in the form of an offer or a series of fact finding questions regarding your academic history. Don't forget the magic words " So, tell me about your grades" when you hear that from an RC you are heading in the right direction. Anything else is the wrong direction and unfortunately a waste of valuable time.

If anyone is unsure about interest from a school post the details about where you are at with school with regards to dialog and communication and WE will vet it for you!

Watching my son navigate the recruiting process was both exciting and stressful but what I learned in the final analysis is that this whole thing isn't about the 'Offer' it's about finding the 'Right fit' not just with baseball but more importantly with the right academic, social and financial fit. The RC's can swing and miss. The player can not. This is a life changing decision for the player and he gets one opportunity to get it right!

 

 

Move on, but stay in touch.  It looks like a golden opportunity to find a new program that wants and needs your son.

When visiting a campus, try to spend as much as time as possible interacting with the head coach and use your gut instincts to gauge whether you and the HC are a good fit.  There might be a great relationship with the RC, but he's not the one that makes out the starting lineup!

My reaction is more visceral: F 'em. I wouldn't spend another iota of attention or $$ on them.

 

Use the reaction two ways: (1) to map out improvement, and (2) motivation to pound their collective heads in sand.

 

My sincere hope is that 2018 gets to a point where he can face said school on the field and burn their asses.

#1 Assistant Coach and others on this thread: Division I coaches aren't supposed to be communicating with a 2018 via e-mail except to basically say "Thanks for your e-mail, but we can't reply to your e-mails or initiate phone calls to you until Sept. 1 of your junior year."  May want to think twice about this coaching staff if they're not following the rules during the recruiting process.

 

That may not be the case, as the original poster may have just been summarizing, but I thought I should point that out.

StrainedOblique,

 

Excellent post and thanks for taking the time...  You provided multiple perspectives that touched on a number of recent threads.  

 

The whole video thing...I've been leaning toward periodic emails incorporating occasional video when there's been a significant improvement in swing or mechanics - more a workout type video.  I still think it it's logical, but you've given me reason to be cautious.  "the more coach's see video on a kid the more they look for something wrong" It's a skeptical view but likely reality... making me think more about this.

 

It's also a different gig for us not playing on a national ranked team that attends a lot of high profile tournaments that attract a lot of coach's.  My son is a 2018, the only way he got exposure the past summer and fall was: making it to PG Super 25, attending an ACC camp, playing up with 2016-17's at PG Kernels Tourney in Cedar Rapids.  The colleges that are on my son's list were notified where he'd be playing.   At PG Super 25 event we maybe saw 2-3 coach's and the PG Kernels tourney, 18 coach's at one game at the main stadium.  We don't think any coach's he's contacted attended.  Given this experience a talented mid-west kid has limited options; he needs to market himself differently to get noticed. Attending more college camps, hoping the current club team improves and gets invited to more higher profile events.  

 

My 2018's is focused on the most important thing he can control right now: off season strength, speed, continued skill development, and nutrition, and remaining a good student.   

 

Good comments by all & Happy Thanksgiving to you.

Concur Rick - a few parents also picked up on that.

Sending you a PM

It's been said that baseball recruitment is not a "one size fits all" approach. Strained Oblique laid out an approach in detail for those who are part of a high profile travel team. We found that the colleges son was vetting recruited different ways and appeared at various events.

 

So maybe what would be helpful for a 2018, 2019, 2020 would be to find out what events/showcases/camps school attends in their typical recruiting season so he has that info for when he's ready to "show what he has." 

Maybe because the schools son would look at , but the school he eventually would attend, asked him halfway through the process, "Could you send me an updated video when you have it?"

I agree.  And I know it sounds peculiar and actually a violation of NCAA recruitment rules. 2018 has had numerous coaches initiate contact with him via his travel coach and HS coach, but there have been many who have been a little bit more overt in the email replies, NOT emails they initiate, but replies to his outreach/update emails to them.  I know there's no difference in the eyes of the NCAA really, an email and its content is an email whether they initiate it or are replying to one received. 

 

When he receives one that's more than the standard "Dear XXXX,  Thank you for your interest in our program.  As per NCAA rules we can not have contact with you until September 1st of your junior year........etc.," not sure what he is supposed to do?  Email them back and make them aware they are violating NCAA rules??  And politely ask them to limit their emails to just camp info??

 

JMO, but I believe there are a lot of programs who must believe they are so under the NCAA radar that they feel they can get away with putting a little extra "mustard" on their email replies to potential recruits.  Again, these are not instances when the school is initiating an email, but simply responding to 2018's outreach or update email to them.  Some schools may feel they have nothing to lose, and live by the old adage, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'?"  Just a guess.

It's certainly not your son's responsibility to make sure the coaches are following the rules, but I'm simply suggesting that you and he log that in your memory banks when he's considering whether or not to join that program. 

 

In fairness to the coaches, especially if they're younger with not a lot of experience with NCAA rules, it could be that their compliance offices are not doing an adequate job of educating them on the rules.  I've consulted with a number of athletes and parents in transfer situations where even the compliance office at a university wasn't applying the rules properly.

Not sure why a 2018 is sending out videos or emails this early.

Don't take this the wrong way, but about your OP, that's not on the coach, but on you for putting your son in that situation to begin with.  

I know people feel the need to get the word out early on their players, but you have a responsibility as well to be familiar with the rules and wait until the time is right. Get 2 years of HS ball in and get in a showcase for an evaluation when appropriate. Don't let coaches see you son until he is ready to be seen.

 

Excellent post from strained oblique, use the advice wisely from those that have gone  through the process. 

JMO

 

 

I appreciate all the feedback directed at my question in OP.  Please keep in mind that my question was simply, "Should a 2018 make a 15-hour drive one-way to visit a D-1 when player feels the RC is more interested in him than the HC?" 

 

In order to explain why we believe the RC may be more interested in son than the HC, I shared son's experience with accidentally receiving HC's email that he must've believed he was sending only to his RC, but he must've hit "Reply All" and thus my son received coach's very candid and less than glowing opinion of son on his recruit video.  No big deal.  As my OP states, I was impressed with how the HC handled the error, he sincerely apologized to son, and son appreciated getting the honest feedback from a D-1 HC.  All positive experience so far, in a "making lemon aid out of lemons" sort of way. 

 

Somewhere along the line here this thread has turned into a, "Why is a 2018 sending video and emails to coaches" thread.  I don't know why?  I will ask him, but something clearly must be coming from it because the school in question wants him to visit the campus (and no, it's not a camp invite).  Son's other campus visits have come through his travel coach or HS coach.  This RC is clearly inviting son for a visit, via email, and again my question is simply should we make the effort since we believe the HC is less enthusiastic about son due to the miscued email received from HC with his revealing comments?

 

Most helpful posts so far regarding this question:

 

BacDorSlider: "we would not slam the door shut on said school but would definitely move on.  Being a 2018 you have plenty of time to change HC mind but I would not spend on this school....Also the RC may be at a another school in a year of two and that school might be better than the first school."

Cabbagedad: "I definitely agree with bacdor in keeping good dialog with at least RC who is in your camp.  Things can change with either RC, HC or both."

Gov: "Your 2018 is getting an eye opening early for how tough the process is and how coach's are running a business to build a program.  It's all still grow a business and manage your P & L."

RipkenFan: "I guess I am one for fate, and would probably move on from that school. RC and HC have to be on the same page.  Things happen for a reason."

Coach B25: "No matter how many times HC saw her play after that, and it was a lot, he never got over that first impression."

NYdad2017:  "One more piece of advice... don't take it personal. This stuff is business at it's best. Find what will be best for your kid; where they love him and he'll get a good education. Don't fall in love with anything either, as it's bound to break your heart. Just find that place where your son will be able to be at his best and they want him the most. But tell him to remember this event, in case he faces that school down the road."

Fenway South: "Move on, but stay in touch."

Rick at Informed Athlete:  "When visiting a campus, try to spend as much as time as possible interacting with the head coach and use your gut instincts to gauge whether you and the HC are a good fit.  There might be a great relationship with the RC, but he's not the one that makes out the starting lineup!"

Rick again: "In fairness to the coaches, especially if they're younger with not a lot of experience with NCAA rules, it could be that their compliance offices are not doing an adequate job of educating them on the rules.  I've consulted with a number of athletes and parents in transfer situations where even the compliance office at a university wasn't applying the rules properly."

 

Strained O, TPM, Smokeinside, Ted22, I appreciate your input also.  I've read you guys for a long time and I understand the point about not sending video out until later.  But the cows are out of the barn at this point, and there's nothing I can do about it now.  I just wanted advice on whether to invest any more into this university with a 15-hour one-way road trip when the "RC is hot, and the HC is cool?"

 

I will encourage son to keep the line of communication open with RC as long as possible for reasons stated by Fenway, BacDor, and Cabbagedad. But I'm awfully tempted to have 2018 take joemktg's advice:

 

"F 'em. I wouldn't spend another iota of attention or $$ on them.  My sincere hope is that 2018 gets to a point where he can face said school on the field and burn their axxes." -joemktg

 

 

So that I'm able to stay focused on this thread about your 2018 - do what you already know you're going to do.
Threads done - good luck

+1

 

Here it is straight up. No, I wouldn't make a 15 hour trip if my son was a 2018 or even a 2017 at this time. Even if the unfortunate email never occurred.  Why would you?   Why not ask your player to attend in the spring to watch baseball? Now that makes sense.  

 

It's just not necessary, neither is attending any camp at this time unless it is to learn some new skills.

Great thread, informative and divergent...do what you want to do, its your kid and your money. I would not travel to the school with the feedback you received from the HC. He  makes the call on who they offer, not the RC. Its early enough that you shouldnt be rushed in making a decision like this especially when you got less than desirable assessment. Good luck.

This is my first response as well, but on second thought, I wouldn't close anY doors.  I wouldn't waste any energy on them, but I wouldn't burn any bridges.  If the RC was to initiate contact again, I would express my concerns about the HC's apparent non interest and see what he says.  If it is positive or negative then you have a path to proceed.  If son is not contacted by them, than I would move on and hope to play for a team that I could regularly stick it to them.  My gut feeling is that you are wasting your time with them, but you never know.  Good Luck!

QUESTION : "Should a 2018 make a 15-hour drive one-way to visit a D-1 when player feels the RC is more interested in him than the HC?"

 

ANSWER : NO

Why would I drive 15 hours to a program where the HC didn't like my kid when I could drive 15 hours for one that did?  And furthermore if the school with the less than enthusiastic HC offered could I actually recommend that my son commit??

Just my 2 cents, but I'm gonna be more focused on trying to find schools where the entire staff is really excited to have him. That's important. Gotta go where the love is

 

 

Your gut is right and you definitely know. There are many, many, many good ballplayers out there, so if the HC reaction is initially negative, he's moved on. 

If I have a few years of high school left I'm not going to try to impress a lukewarm coach until I've developed into what he might want. A lukewarm second opinion would be the end of recruitment.

As a learning exercise, can we play devil's advocate? 

 

What's the worst thing about keeping this school on the kids short list?  I would think having a memorable experience with the HC, even a bad one, would be a good ice breaker for future emails...unless he accidentally replies all to a bunch of recruits? 

 

  "Hey Coach this is Joe Smith, if I recall you weren't too impressed with my competition last time I sent you a video, these guys are ranked second in the state, and I sat around XXmph, please let your RC know if you like this video any better."

 

Is that a bad thing?

The learning exercise is don't rely on video, get seen in person. The next exchange to the coach would be where to come watch him play.

Maybe you missed strained obliques great response.