re: Stealing home: How travel teams are eroding community baseball (Washington Post)

Boy, you missed the whole point. Who said ANYTHING about crappy coaching or a crappy team? And WHY does a 9 year old need a travel team? WHY? And please describe to me a QUALITY player at 9 years old? A 9 year old kid is just learning. He will not master what is being taught to him for a while. That time is right around 13 when some serious coaching can have a dramatic affect. You don't have to agree with me on any of this but I expect not to be misrepresented in what I say.

I guess I did miss your point, but I didn't mean to misrepresent what you said. Why does a 9 year old need a travel team?  Because often times the available rec league has crappy teams and crappy coaching.  Kids wouldn't be leaving if the level of baseball was good (this is JMO).  When my son was 9 there were kids that could dive to catch a ground ball only to throw to a first baseman who jumped out of the way.  What fun is that?  At least with a travel team you have some options as far as the quality of team you put your kid on.  With rec ball you get drafted on to a team and that's that.  I've yet to see a rec ball team that didn't have at least several players who were awful.  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, and if they want to play its great there's a place for them, but better players don't have much fun with that, even at 9 years old.

I guess we were luckier than you, Smitty. Both my boys played for pretty good coaches. Probably the most poorly qualified either of them ever had was me.  As for level of play, a good 9yo in our league would always end up playing high (10-11yo) Minors not low, and that would tend to eliminate the problem of the missing first baseman.  Some leagues allow managers to draft 9yo's to Majors. But yeah, for sure there are weak players (hate to use the word crappy to describe a 9yo child) on any LL or other rec team.  But that weak 9yo player could well be the best friend of a strong 9yo player, or become his best friend.   In a good league at least (and I know not all rec leagues are good) the sense of community among the kids and families is the most important part of the experience, and the kids really enjoy playing and hanging with their pals, and not just the pals who are good athletes.  For the 3 months season do they develop as quickly as they would in travel?  Maybe not, but most have more fun, and that can be important, not only because most won't be pro or even college players, but because lots of travel kids quit the game after too many years of  high pressure competition and not enough fun.

Personally, I have found just the opposite. Travel players spend more time together, form deeper bonds, and closer friendships than rec players. Further, your comment about travel kids quiting is off the mark. I would be willing to bet that you look at the rosters of 100 9yo USSSA major/AAA teams and the rosters of 100 LL/CR teams you would find far more of the travel players still in the game by 14.

Moses,

You hit the nail on the head. Might not be politically correct to say but it's the truth. Many that leave rec ball leave in search of better play/competition; what's wrong with that? When my son played league lucky to have 4 or 5 good players and the rest were just there. If pitcher could get through the early part of the line up all he had to do is throw strikes; batting 11 or 12 it was a long time back to the top of the order. A fly ball in the outfield was almost a guarantee of an extra base hit. How does this type of play develop a player? Put in the mix some pretty crappy coaches (we did have a couple of good ones along the way) & why would you not want better for your kid? I'd equate the situation with having your child in a failing school making straight A's. Most parents would jump at the opportunity to move their child to a better school even it meant grades were harder to come by. Not all travel is "showcase ball". For younger kids I don't see how it's worth to money but to each his own. I think league is great because anyone who wants to play can; just can't make my kid play. Also curious to know how many parents who are adamantly opposed to travel have ever tried?  

How travel teams are eroding community baseball

Is that a bad thing?

The market decides.  If LL wants more players, their product should be better.

If your son wants a better baseball situation and or you realize he needs a better one no problem. If one game a week and one scheduled practice a week isn't cutting it for him fine. If the competition is so weak he is told not to throw the ball so hard, don't hit it so hard no problem. If your son is a competitive kid who simply needs a better situation fine.

Just make sure you don't go crazy with all of this stuff. Playing games from March "early bird tourneys" to late fall. Playing tourneys every single weekend. Traveling all over the place so often the siblings are neglected. Playing so much there is no time to be a kid. No time to work on the game itself. No time for the family to be a family. On and on it goes. I say these things because I have seen this happen many times. The constant "upgrade" system where a new guy is brought in because someone no longer fits in. And the trophy chasing begins and it gets crazy.

I shutter to think how many innings how many of these 9 years olds throw in a single season that starts in late March and ends in Nov. And how many people max out credit cards and bank accounts because they think if they dont give this opportunity to their son at 9 10 11 12 they are going to fall behind the other kids who do.

If your not brain dead and you manage it properly no problem. But folks tend to go brain dead when it comes to wanting to give their kids something they feel he wants and sometimes they want so badly. I hope this post makes sense. I am not ragging on travel ball. I am just posting what I have seen happen many times.

I don't think even Statsforgnats can help us with the friendship metrics so we'll have to disagree on that one. But really.  30+ hours per week in school, plus games and practices and living down the street and playing soccer or whatever together as well is not as conducive to lasting bonds as a travel team? Okay, if you say so.  As for the bet you offer, I don't accept your terms because they misstate my point. Obviously a group of rec-only players will have moved on in higher numbers than a group of elite players.  Here's the bet I'd make:  Take the roster of USSSA 9yo Majors players, and remove from the list the 9yo Majors players who were also LL or CR All Stars. The USSSA-only players are your group;  the USSSA and rec group is mine. I'll bet my group has more kids still playing ball in HS than yours. 

I'd take you up on that in a second. First, you will have a hard time finding LL All-Star teams that play USSSA majors. Most play AA and AAA. Most of the kids on most TB teams also go to school together, play other sports, etc. My kids did. Played close to 100 games a year and 6 or 7 played competitive basketball together as well. Throw in team parties, vacations together, hotel swimming pools and team meals. In fact, looking back on my roster from 9u, every single player played this season at 14u at either AAA or major level. The same goes for most of the rosters I know of. This "burnout" problem is a myth. A vast majority of kids playing either AAA or major at nine are still playing by high school.

First challenge for you. Find me a minimum of five teams of, let's say 10yo who are playing USSSA major and rec league.

Where a kid plays preteen ball (travel or rec) will not have any bearing on playing high school ball. By high school it will be determined by post puberty talent, passion and work ethic regardless of where preteen ball was played. If anyone says a kid needs to play on a certain 10u team to play on the right 12u team so they can play on the right 14u team to have a shot at making the high school team they've been sold a story to get a hook in their wallet. I've seen this explanation more than once online. I have some beach front property in Kansas to sell them.

Find teams that play both? Rec doesn't work that way, and even if it did, sorry, but I have a job.  My proposition is a fair test. You can do the grunt work yourself.  Or we can admit that our experiences are anechdotal and leave it at that. But I will relay your thoughts to my neighbor R____.  R____ played both D1 and AAA baseball.  A few years back, when both our kids were 10u and playing LL, I remember him bringing his kid to the field for extra BP whenever my team was leaving. Yeah, dad was pushing him, but I really admired that kid's work ethic and enormous talent. Plus he has the genes.  Well the kid left LL to play travel only the next year, and less than two years after that he was done. He still plays basketball with my kid,  so I asked him last year, frankly because I wanted to recruit him for our team, why did you quit playing baseball -- you were so good? He said it just wasn't fun anymore, and he was sick of the grind of non-stop pressure and year-round competition.  Damn shame. The kid is a natural. Who knows, maybe he'll come back some day.

Here's the problem with "rec" ball in my area. Teams were put together.  Given five practice times and an 18 game schedule.  We'll there is nothing you can do with five practice times.  Especially when you have less talented kids.  Want to practice during the year?  Good luck finding open field time and jumping thru the hoops to access it.  It was fun, but the kids didn't get better.  At 9u, the powers that be thought it would be great to allow kids to "steal" home on a passed ball/wp.  Without the time to properly develop catchers (if you where lucky to have one), walks became "home runs."  You would have high scoring affairs, without hitting the ball out of the infield. 

While travel ball is watered down, there is a significant difference.  More practice time.  If you have good coaches (very rare), better coaching.  And a higher level of competition.  My kids experience was great, but he got lucky.  Many do not.  They get stuck with upset dads as "coaches" on teams that are a juice box away from a rec team. 

IMO, here is what separates the good from the bad in travel ball.  First, you need a team with good coaching.  Guys who know the game and can organize a practice and teach it.  That can be an experienced dad or a paid coach at older ages.  Second, you need a commitment to practice during the off season.  Third, you need a game philosophy which balances development and winning, so kids get ample opportunity.  Those teams that follow these three basics seem to be successful.  Those that do not are really rec teams in disguise. 

Personally, I don't think travel ball makes much sense until 11u or maybe 10u. But 8 and 9u?  Rec ball is what it is. The better, more competitive kids (and their parents) can get easily frustrated by the "also-playeds" but that is supposed to be what All-Stars is for. The best players and coaches playing and practicing hard to compete against other LL skilled teams. Good thing there is little to no policitcs and hard feelings in AS. Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

Can and do kids and parents go (way) overboard on travel baseball. You betcha.

I put this in the same category as the local, old timey stores who whine when a Wal-Mart goes up in their area.

The problem here is that the programs that run the way they always have, just aren't satisfying the desires of their target customers.  So what do you do then?  Why, you blame the customers for choosing the superior option.  Or, you complain about the people who came in and offered the superior option.

But blame yourself for failing to keep up with what your customers wanted?  Heaven forbid.

The reality is, if the local leagues would provide a quality experience on par with what travel offers, they wouldn't have a problem.  But they're so eaten up with rule making, territorial lines, allowing would-be tyrants to run the local shows, etc., that people are doing the natural thing.  They are going elsewhere.

And BTW, the biggest thing travel ball offers is MORE BASEBALL.  The average Little League program plays maybe 20 games per team per year, and then shuts down because as far as Williamsport is concerned, the entire summer has to be devoted to the All Star tourneys so that they can rake in their TV money come August.  With travel ball, those who love baseball first and foremost can get in 50-60 games from April through October and, in a lot of areas, never even leave town.  Or play on a school night, either.

As for the cost, well, it's a free country.  Apparently people think it's worth it, or else they wouldn't voluntarily pay it. 

You know, they offer a lot of cars under $25,000, but there are still a lot of people willing to pay more to get more.  Same principle.

I'm trying to figure out why some members found the need to attack TCWPreps for posting a link to an article and commenting that it was, "An interesting read."  He didn't say he was for or against anything and yet, we have members drawing conclusions as to what he coaches and his agenda. 

As with rec ball, there are problems with TB.  Anyone suggesting otherwise is simply ignoring the reality of TB.  Cost have skyrocketed and to the point that some parents would be better off spending that money in some type of college savings account.  There are players kept on some of these teams for financial reasons and not to play.  Those players are typically the 13 or 14th player and rarely get quality time with the exception of injuries etc.  There are those players who play the game for themselves and for their stats and so, could care less about team accomplishments. Those players do change teams as often as they change their underwear. 

This can also be said of rec ball.  LOL!  One impression I gained early on is that some member here give the reader little credibility to determine whether this link provided accurate information.  From the get go, it was not an article that I would put much stock in.  That was apparent.  That mere fact made it an interesting article because one can read that article and realize the agenda of the writer.  I would have thought that some here would view that article as reinforcement of why their sons should play TB.  JMHO!

Stealing Home: How electricity is eroding the need for Candle Makers

My point was that you seem to think 1) travel ball doesn't provide the closeness and camaraderie of rec ball; and

2) TB kids get burned out and quit baseball at a higher rate than rec players.

Both are just not even close to the truth. I'm guessing you don't really have any experience with travel teams.

I'll also note that, while coaching is better in travel ball than rec, there are still some bad Tb coaches and that the reason rec coaching is overall worse is that tb has siphoned most of the good coaches off of rec ball over the years.

Yea, that's just not the case at all.

Most travel teams are together far longer, play more games, and practice more than your common rec. team.

Add in any tournaments you travel to, time in hotels and restaurants, etc. and travel kids spend a lot of time together.  They aren't typically some group of mercenaries brought in from around the country to play in a tournament and then disperse to the wind. Yes - there are teams like that, but despite getting all the headlines - they are really in the minority. 

Life is about choices.  Travel ball is a choice based on talent or your ability to stroke a check.  Little League is a choice based on where you live.  Doing both is a choice.  You and your son gets to decide.

The article is a hatchet job IMHO.  No credibility whatsoever.

I did get a chuckle out of the reference to LL founder Carl Stotz.

Obviously the author didn't read the book about how Stotz founded LLUSA, how corporate forces took over and ousted him, how LLUSA left Stotz's vision behind, and how Stotz spent the last decades of his life in a bitter feud with LLUSA.

What Stotz envisioned was an opportunity for local kids to don uniforms and play like the big leaguers they idolized.  He held tryouts and some players were cut if they were unable to compete.  Rosters were limited to assure that everyone who did make the cut got ample playing time.  There was no guaranteed playing time; you had to compete to earn it.

Contrast that to today's LLUSA program, which actually discourages keeping score in the younger levels because someone in command thinks teaching kids to enjoy competition, how to win with humility and lose with grace, and how to pull yourself up if you aren't making the grade right now, is somehow wrong or damaging to the fragile young psyche. 

Today's LLUSA program has dedicated itself to serving the least talented ball players, to assure that they have a way to play.  If that is the path they choose, that is their right, and for many people it is the right choice.  And it's great that kids who truly aren't athletically gifted still have a way to get on the field and enjoy our great game. 

But once you choose one fork in the road, don't be surprised if a lot of other people take the other fork.

I should add, I enjoyed my own years as a Tuckahoe Little Leaguer, I enjoyed my several years coaching in Huguenot Little League, and I'm glad my children and I participated in those programs -- on balance.  But there's a lot of frustration you have to put up with just to have a program that allows your kid to play side by side with his schoolmates.  And a lot of the frustration is caused by the officious intermeddlers and is totally unnecessary, even detrimental, to the stated goals of the program.

Yeah, none at all.  Just trying to annoy you.

What we really need is to take the positive approach -- to explain WHY travel ball has exploded, that is, to explain what it offers that apparently has attracted so many families -- so strongly, in fact, that they are willing to pay dearly for it at times.

Here are a few thoughts that come to mind:

In most rec leagues, you get the coach to whom you are assigned (unless it's your dad).  You might get the best coach in the world.  Or, you might get a screamer, an idiot, a daddy ball problem, or all three.  In travel ball, you choose the coach and the team he runs, and he chooses you.  If it's not a mutual agreement, you go somewhere else until you find a mutually beneficial arrangement.  Done right, everyone on the team is on the same page.

"Travel ball," like "AAU teams," is a misnomer.  Really these are barnstorming teams, and the extent to which they travel is up to each team.  The team I helped run for my son when he was 9u never actually left town.  We just played other like-minded teams from our area.  But you can travel, or not travel, as you see fit.  You can play teams you choose, and not play teams you choose not to play (e.g., if they can't behave themselves). 

In rec ball, if your son breaks his arm skateboarding or some such, you could miss an entire year of baseball.  In travel ball, you might miss a month or two, but there's a lot of season left.  IF BASEBALL IS YOUR FIRST LOVE, THERE IS MORE OF IT TO BE HAD.

If your son is a competitor and shows an aptitude for the game and love of the game, travel ball will offer him better and more consistent instruction than your typical rec league can ever hope to offer.  And yes, it's not only possible to discern who these kids are at age 9, it's easy.  Go to any 9u game and you can tell right off which kids are which.  And BTW, whoever said they were just starting out at that age ... by age 9u, a lot of kids have had 2 years of tee ball and 2 years of coach pitch or similar instructional ball.  By 9u, many kids are just dying for more and more baseball.  Others aren't.  Travel ball has an option for anyone on that spectrum. Rec ball does not.

Travel ball allows talent to stratify to where everyone can play at their own level.  Those at the very top can test themselves against the very best, and for them, college and pro recruiting is a big deal, too.  Those not at that level can still play and enjoy the game -- even if they might've gotten cut from their HS team!

Rec league tells you when your team will play.  Travel ball allows you to choose a team that plays a schedule that suits your family's needs.  Maybe weeknights are a problem for you, and you need weekends.  Maybe you observe the Sabbath on Saturday and you need a program that plays a lot on Sundays. 

Maybe you like the kind of society where someone else makes a lot of rules and you have to live by them whether they make sense to you or not.  If so, rec ball is for you, and you can go home and turn on your newfangled, $25 light bulb and enjoy yourself.  But if you believe someone ought to be allowed to help on the field without getting fingerprinted first; if you believe that it's better to have an adult catch a bullpen for the hardest throwing kid on the team, instead of sending the kid who couldn't make the starting lineup down there to get hurt; if you understand why 13-year-olds shouldn't be playing on a 60-by-60 diamond; if you understand why metal cleats are safer than rubber cleats; if you think a kid who lives in an area with no rec league ought to be able to play with kids who live just a mile or two away without restrictions; if you think the kid who gave 100% at practice and arrived for pregame warmups early should get to play more than the kid who skipped practice just because he wasn't in the mood that day, then came to the game at the last minute or even late;  if you understand that raising your voice so that your outfielder can hear your instruction 200 feet away is not the same as yelling at a kid to berate him; and if you understand that keeping stats, keeping score, measuring performance, and letting kids know the truth of where they stand is a good thing and to be encouraged for all concerned; then for you, there is travel ball.

Even as an admitted LL loyalist and long-time local LL officer, I can't argue with that critique.  I could discuss much of it, but this isn't the place and I doubt many here would be interested. But just on the point of officious intermeddlers -- yeah, that was me.  In a way that's the strength of the program, not the weakness. It's hard overstate and hard for people to imagine the absolutely crazy stuff parents and coaches will do in a youth rec program without enforcement of the LL rule book.

Every type of baseball is important IMO.  It's not just baseball that has kids quitting the game by the time they reach HS... It happens in every sport. People can call it burn out, lack of talent, poor habits, whatever they want, it just happens.

I think it would be great if there were a place for everyone to play the game.  I think it's great that there are different levels for those less or more skilled.  Where kids can enjoy the game and become lifelong fans.

There is no perfection! There will always be the good, the bad and the ugly.  It all exists at every level of baseball.  Only one thing can destroy community baseball... That is the community Itself!  In some parts of the country, community baseball and travel/club baseball are the same thing.

Some of the most enjoyable watching for me is when very young kids (boys and girls) are just starting to play.  You will always see something happen that reminds you how great the game is.  If I had the time, this is where I'd like to coach.  Heck with teaching the game, just make sure everyone is having some fun.  The rest will all take care of itself.

My son was twelve nine years ago. We had none of these problems in our LL. To the best of my knowledge these problems don't exist now and all the kids in the area still play LL.

When I coached LL there were coaches like myself, willing to work with any kid in the league if his coach wasn't the most knowledgeable. I worked with an opposing team's kid in the hitting cage at 4pm. That night he got his first hit (a line drive) to beat my team. Both my coaches and I played college ball. 

I never had an issue with continuous batting order through age ten. Kids don't become top players because they played the league games. They become better players because they practice a lot away from the team. 

From 7-12 we were involved in both Ripken then LL. LL can be a pain with all the administrative rules. Ripken tells you to show up for all stars then follow their rules. It's why LL is losing some programs to Ripken. My son played into August each year either with a summer community travel team or LL all stars.

Getting into 7th grade and turning thirteen is a whole new animal. Kids have two years to play before high school. The field is now full size. It's time for proper instruction (if a kid wasn't getting the best) and very competitive opposition for a challenge. But there are plenty of weak, poorly coached daddyball travel teams through 14u. I believe travel ball from 13u on is why my son was the first soph to start opening day in six years. The travel pitching he faced as a fourteen year old on a 16u team was as good or better than a lot of high school pitching.

Going back to when I played we had to make LL. The age was 10-12 with a handful of 9s (there were four of us) making it and counting as 10s. When I was nine I played in about half the games and got maybe ten plate appearances. That was fine. I was scared to death of the pitching which was mostly 12yos. But we practiced four days a week on top of our two games. And we played baseball, all day, all summer in pickup games. We figured out how to play the game with the help of the older kids. If a kid wasn't good enough to play LL when I was a kid he was assigned to LL Farms and coached by high school kids. If the kid was terrible at twelve he was still in Farms.

Placing kids in Majors who don't belong there is the only issue I ever had with LL and Ripken. But from recognizing potential and drafting well I had very few of these kids. If I had to choose a weak player I chose one I knew loved the game. 

Our LL was a social event in addition to decent baseball. The concession stand had great food. Families would show up for dinner and watch the games. The kids not playing or practicing would end up playing whiffle ball behind the LF fence. We left Ripken because of the politics and certain players and coaches getting preferential treatment. The quality of a program is not it's rules. It's the quality of the people running the organization.

Golfman had it right for our community.  Rec kids just 4-5 practices and then they play games. That is not enough time to teach much of anything.  You have to have good parents willing to work with their child and give him/her the repetitions they cannot get with the team.  Sadly only 4-5 players on a team have parents like that.  My son always played Rec ball because he wanted to play with and against his friends.  He played a combination rec and travel beginning at 11.  Now my son plays in college.  As has been said many times everyone plays their last game sometime.  For many it is Rec league but my son has many happy memories playing with his friends most of which never played past that.  He made many more friends in Travel and he runs into some of them on opposing teams which he enjoys the reunions.  Baseball has given him a lot of lifelong friends and will continue to until he plays his last game.