Recruits Pay Attention this time of year

I hope no one is going through this right now!  It was not a good time for our family!  PM me if you think you might need to ask some particulars about this.  I'm not going to throw mud at any school on the forum for all to see.  I'm hoping this institution and staff have changed their ways.  I'm just reaching out to others to help with situations to avoid to make your college experience a great one.  My oldest is very happy where he is now and my youngest signed to play college baseball next year.  My family has been very blessed and hope the same for the rest of you.  

Wise advice, but other than being really aware that when you are walk on, you are vulnerable to this happening, it is too difficult to track.  There is no good source for being made aware that a particular school does this more than another unless a poster like yourself is willing to share (and I understand you wanting to restrict it to PM).  Some of the various recruiting services out there hear things and can help, but it seems like a kid is just rolling the dice if they go into a situation where they do not have athletic money to make the coach keep his word about the walk on roster spot.  I'm glad to hear your son wound up happy in a much better situation, but that probably does not happen very often to kids who wind up in this situation.

It goes back to the old adage--go to where you are loved.  I'm not sure if your son had an option with a coach showing more genuine interest before he made the decision to go to the D1 that cut him.  But the more I read about D3 where there is no athletic money/commitment and walk on elsewhere, it is all about trusting the coach on his word and being sure they really want a kid.

Thanks for sharing.

OVERTHEHILL:

Is your son playing at the D2? Interested to know the transfer process.

Backstop, my son committed early.  When signing day came around they asked him to come on his academic money.  He was getting 80% paid and the other freshmen were getting 25% athletic.  His academic money was more than the athletic money he would have been offered.  We trusted and knew the coach (we thought) for several years.  He and my wife and I were given the BS line about he had a guaranteed spot and we were freeing up other athletic money and doing them a huge favor.  My son kept his word after turning down several D1 offers and D2 offers to play football and baseball.  

Rangerboy, all he had to do was get a release from D1 school and the market was open.  He signed with a D2 within a week and turned down several other offers.  Only bad thing was D1 dreams were over.  Couldn't afford to sit out another year and had too many hours to go back to JUCO

OVERTHEHILL:

So your son was let go before the Spring 2017 season started or last season?

My son was let go in 2014.  

I was curious about timing. Did your son have to transfer mid-year or did he start the D2 in the Fall ?

The spring semester had already started.  It was like today.  About the 15th of February and 2 days before the first game.  He finished up the spring working out at a baseball facility, played summer ball, then started at the D2 in the fall.  

Overthehill - It sounds like you dotted your i's and crossed your t's with the coach.  Too bad it worked out that way.

I still believe you can get at this upfront somewhat with coaches by addressing this issue front and center in the recruiting process.  We looked every single coach in the eye through both sons and asked very bluntly, 'Coach - sometimes things don't work out quite how we all hope - what will happen if our son doesn't live up to your expectations - will you consider cutting him loose?'

Every one of them said they would not, but it was more in the the way they said, their body language and their eye contact that gave me a good idea what they were really thinking.

Some stumbled before answering, some danced...and some very firmly and resolutely answered.  The best answer was quick and firm with direct eye contact.  "Oh no  Mr. JBB - if your son doesn't turn out to be as good as we think, that is our mistake, not his - we would not do that."  That same coach even wrote a letter saying, 'While I am prohibited by the NCAA from promising anything beyond a year I am writing to tell you it is my full intention to keep my word and commitment to your son throughout his college career.'  Every other answer was either slightly or tap-dancingly less than that.  But we got every one of them on the record - and we let them know thats what we expected.

You want a commitment from our son?  Give us one back.

No, this does not guarantee anything and I'm sure that coaches go back on their word, even those who look you in the eye - but I strongly advise every parent to not be afraid to ask very direct questions like this one.  What have you got to lose?

I was reading this tread and I feel bad about what goes on. Like said 'go where you are loved' is so true, BUT some coaches give a lot of love when recruiting and then the love is gone. Maybe there are reasons such as performance, school work, or other, but nevertheless it is disheartening and you are left 'hanging'. I know of a kid that is a really good player (drafted) went to a good D1, first year played sporadically, coming in to pinch-hit, did well in post season when another player got hurt (mind you another freshman), and yet this past fall he was told that the best for him would be platooning with other players. He committed early (sophomore in HS) and was 'loved' by the HC; so what happened?, he did well, no errors, hit well, academics were excellent, his behavior is outstanding and yet the love disappeared. He talked to the coach and did a juco transfer for the spring season. So like OVERTHEHILL says, you have to be very careful with what coaches say, you can't go back and tell them 'but you told me', and as far as I am concerned, your kid comes first and try to read any BS that can come across, even though is hard to read or pay attention to possible BS when the coaches are telling you some 'beautiful things about your son and how great he is and happy he will be'. I did some basic research bouncing at different D1 schools, and about 40-50% of freshmen tend to leave the school and transfer, and I bet 'your dollar' that all these kids were 'loved', so we have to be very careful.

justbaseball posted:

Overthehill - It sounds like you dotted your i's and crossed your t's with the coach.  Too bad it worked out that way.

I still believe you can get at this upfront somewhat with coaches by addressing this issue front and center in the recruiting process.  We looked every single coach in the eye through both sons and asked very bluntly, 'Coach - sometimes things don't work out quite how we all hope - what will happen if our son doesn't live up to your expectations - will you consider cutting him loose?'

Even one of them said they would not, but it was more in the the way they said, their body language and their eye contact that gave me a good idea what they were really thinking.

Some stumbled before answering, some danced...and some very firmly and resolutely answered.  The best answer was quick and firm with direct eye contact.  "Oh no  Mr. JBB - if your son doesn't turn out to be as good as we think, that is our mistake, not his - we would not do that."  That same coach even wrote a letter saying, 'While I am prohibited by the NCAA from promising anything beyond a year I am writing to tell you it is my full intention to keep my word and commitment to your son throughout his college career.'  Every other answer was either slightly or tap-dancingly less than that.  But we got every one of them on the record - and we let them know thats what we expected.

You want a commitment from our son?  Give us one back.

No, this does not guarantee anything and I'm sure that coaches go back on their word, even those who look you in the eye - but I strongly advise every parent to not be afraid to ask very direct questions like this one.  What have you got to lose?

Seriously good info right there!

DesertDuck posted:

justbaseball posted:

Overthehill - It sounds like you dotted your i's and crossed your t's with the coach.  Too bad it worked out that way.

I still believe you can get at this upfront somewhat with coaches by addressing this issue front and center in the recruiting process.  We looked every single coach in the eye through both sons and asked very bluntly, 'Coach - sometimes things don't work out quite how we all hope - what will happen if our son doesn't live up to your expectations - will you consider cutting him loose?'

Even one of them said they would not, but it was more in the the way they said, their body language and their eye contact that gave me a good idea what they were really thinking.

Some stumbled before answering, some danced...and some very firmly and resolutely answered.  The best answer was quick and firm with direct eye contact.  "Oh no  Mr. JBB - if your son doesn't turn out to be as good as we think, that is our mistake, not his - we would not do that."  That same coach even wrote a letter saying, 'While I am prohibited by the NCAA from promising anything beyond a year I am writing to tell you it is my full intention to keep my word and commitment to your son throughout his college career.'  Every other answer was either slightly or tap-dancingly less than that.  But we got every one of them on the record - and we let them know thats what we expected.

You want a commitment from our son?  Give us one back.

No, this does not guarantee anything and I'm sure that coaches go back on their word, even those who look you in the eye - but I strongly advise every parent to not be afraid to ask very direct questions like this one.  What have you got to lose?

Seriously good info right there!

Absolutely... just wish more of my players were good enough to warrant demanding a returned 4 year commitment   Unfortunately, I think the large majority of college players are not.  

Another lesson, I guess ... know what leverage you have or don't have.

cabbagedad posted:

DesertDuck posted:

justbaseball posted:

Overthehill - It sounds like you dotted your i's and crossed your t's with the coach.  Too bad it worked out that way.

I still believe you can get at this upfront somewhat with coaches by addressing this issue front and center in the recruiting process.  We looked every single coach in the eye through both sons and asked very bluntly, 'Coach - sometimes things don't work out quite how we all hope - what will happen if our son doesn't live up to your expectations - will you consider cutting him loose?'

Even one of them said they would not, but it was more in the the way they said, their body language and their eye contact that gave me a good idea what they were really thinking.

Some stumbled before answering, some danced...and some very firmly and resolutely answered.  The best answer was quick and firm with direct eye contact.  "Oh no  Mr. JBB - if your son doesn't turn out to be as good as we think, that is our mistake, not his - we would not do that."  That same coach even wrote a letter saying, 'While I am prohibited by the NCAA from promising anything beyond a year I am writing to tell you it is my full intention to keep my word and commitment to your son throughout his college career.'  Every other answer was either slightly or tap-dancingly less than that.  But we got every one of them on the record - and we let them know thats what we expected.

You want a commitment from our son?  Give us one back.

No, this does not guarantee anything and I'm sure that coaches go back on their word, even those who look you in the eye - but I strongly advise every parent to not be afraid to ask very direct questions like this one.  What have you got to lose?

Seriously good info right there!

Absolutely... just wish more of my players were good enough to warrant demanding a returned 4 year commitment   Unfortunately, I think the large majority of college players are not.  

Another lesson, I guess ... know what leverage you have or don't have.

I took it as more of 'getting a feel for where you stand' with the coach/program based on the reaction you may get when asking pointed, direct questions.....More so than demanding something from the coach.

In other words....don't be afraid to ask the questions that are important to you - to gain a better understanding of what you might be getting yourselves into and/or where you might fit within the program.

I will clarify my "go where you are loved" message since FOURBASES brought up a great point that kids who commit as sophomores will certainly believe they are loved as will most kids who commit to D1 schools.  No doubt a Power 5 top program can lure lots of sophomores with early commitments, but then it begs the question, how can a kid really differentiate the true level of "love" and commitment if almost all of the recruited players are recruited that way and that early?  Since money talks, any kid getting a lot of athletic money should believe they are loved, but none of them really know what the other kids are getting who they are competing against for playing time.  And for the kids who are getting only academic money, they are vulnerable no matter what a coach says because he really has nothing invested in them in athletic money.  There are numerous forums here warning about the risks of being a walk-on, recruited or not.

I think message is more clear where a kid is trying to decide between the different divisions.  How many of those 40-50% of D1 freshman that leave after the first year turned down an offer from a D2, D3 or NAIA so they could be a walk on for the D1 because of the prestige status of D1?  I'm guessing there are a lot of kids that were really "loved" a lot more by coaches at the lower division schools who really could see the kid being a star at their school.  But the kids want to play D1, get a chance to go to Omaha, and so on.  I get it.  But if there is one consistent theme on these forums from parents who have sons that have gone through this process, it has to be to really understand where the "true love" is and choose that route if you really hope to play baseball in college.  Overthehill's son was really fortunate to land in a great situation where he wound up happy after a bad D1 experience, but most kids get one real chance at making the right choice of school and baseball program.  Listen to what the coach is really saying, look around, and understand where the real love is before you make the mistake of picking the wrong school.

 

Another lesson, I guess ... know what leverage you have or don't have.

I took it as more of 'getting a feel for where you stand' with the coach/program based on the reaction you may get when asking pointed, direct questions.....More so than demanding something from the coach.

In other words....don't be afraid to ask the questions that are important to you - to gain a better understanding of what you might be getting yourselves into and/or where you might fit within the program.

1000% !!!!!!  

Today, one of our players from the 24th Goodwill Series tour to Australia, has requested my assistance as to the best college program for the young player.In Australia his coach was a Minor League Manager for the Boston Red Sox.

Next Sunday, we will observe a game at SSU  and we will visit with the parents on both teams.

The young man will have an opportunity to "fast forward" his career one year and observe the reflex action of the College players.

I will watch his expression as he views the game from a different angle, not a fan but as a future college player. We will discuss his summer team and which program to accelerate his skill level.

He is a left handed hitting catcher.

Bob

DesertDuck posted:

I took it as more of 'getting a feel for where you stand' with the coach/program based on the reaction you may get when asking pointed, direct questions.....More so than demanding something from the coach.

In other words....don't be afraid to ask the questions that are important to you - to gain a better understanding of what you might be getting yourselves into and/or where you might fit within the program.

Absolutely - just saying don't be afraid to ask direct questions to get the read on where you stand.  Answers to direct questions are information and that is all we ever wanted - good information.  Give me  good information and I felt I knew what to do with it.

BTW, our younger son was not the stud who had any real leverage - he was small, right-handed and didn't throw very hard.  Still, I wanted to know these things even more (because of his shortcomings) and make sure we got him to the right place.  He had a good freshman year but an absolutely horrible sophomore year - no idea if our direct questions rang in the coach's ear as he assessed his roster after that year - but he woulda had to go back on his words if he didn't keep him.  Good thing too - his junior year he was a 2nd team All American while probably never throwing a pitch over 88 mph.

Another example question - your son is a SS and you know they got a commitment from another SS already.  'Coach, I know Joey Studley is an all state SS - whats your plan for our son?  Will he have a shot to compete there?  Will he have to move to 2B?  OF?'

'Coach, your school is an expensive private school (or an out-of-state school), we can't really afford the tuition & fees here on our own - If he has a bad year, will you reduce his scholarship?'  

'Do you see our son as a starter?  Reliever?  I understand things can change, but which year do you think the transition will happen?'

We asked these types of questions regarding both of our sons, not in a challenging way, but very politely and plainly.  I don't think you should be afraid to ask them either.  Pick the right time (I'd say after an offer is a pretty good time), but put on the table what is on your mind.

BTW, one other question my wife asked every single coach, 'Can I be the team mom?'  Pretty funny looking at the faces as they tried to respond.  Most honest answer?, 'Oh no, I don't think so - we don't do that,' came from the same coach mentioned in the post above.

This process is not an exact science, especially for those who have not been through it before.  For most HS players who are the first in their family to look at college baseball programs its a bit of a crap shoot.  You can ask a lot of the right questions (at the time) and get the answers you want to hear  and it still doesn't work out.  There is no shame in that, its a big step to go from HS to college.

Be careful about ignoring advice you don't want to hear.  I  know a person  in an excellent position to give HS parents and players west coach D1 advice and I am surprised how often they ignore his misgivings about their plans.  Its as if they were looking for him to affirm their choices rather then get advice or insight. 

Most coaches won't promise anything but an opportunity, so where do you go from there?  Assuming the program is showing some love, I think you need to learn about the coaches reputation from someone other then the coach or his favorite players.  If you go to a game, try to engage a parent in a discussion, better yet talk to the parent of an opponent, they will often have an more honest lowdown on the program and most of the programs in the league. You'd be surprised about good/bad things parents know and are willing to share about any program their son has played, but still, no guarantee, just a better guess. 

Many JC coaches also know about the 4 year coaches.  There is no reason why your son can't ask a JC coach, the coach will be happy to answer in the event your son ends or considers a JC at some point.  Same for pro scouts, even if your son is not a pro prospect.

There are no guarantees, particularly at the DIII level. Every program recruits differently. Son was shown interest by a DIII program after attending a Prospect Camp and being seen pitching in a 4 inning stint in an outside game by Pitching Coach after camp. He was contacted by Recruiting Coach that they had interest and to visit to learn about the program. The school was a good fit academically so we met with three of the coaches. We were shown around facilities, learned about the program, asked the right questions. We were told the need was there for 2 slots for LHP. Coach said he was a recruit but in Fall every returner and new recruits and walkons try out. His quote was " we would expect your son to make the team."

We felt comfortable with the fact that he had to earn a spot but were led to believe it was rare for a recruit to be cut unless bad attitude, etc. They were truthful in that only two freshman came in as LHP.

Fast forward, tryouts start with 20 or so freshmen, only cut 4 to 5 after two weeks and remaining 10 or so walk-ons or recruits cut after another two weeks or so. Agonizing month long tryouts and about 6 innings total and son was cut. He was told he can pitch at this level, didn't pitch the way they saw in summer, asked if taking 5 year program that would give him 4 years left of eligibility, and would benefit from another year of growth and strength if tryout next year.

Tough nut to swallow. Definitely picked school because of baseball as part of the picture but thank God he is happy there. I'm not going to blame coaches because he obviously didn't pitch to their standards during tryout or he would have been on team. However, it's tough when you are told you are a recruit. They saw in the summer and in a game so were impressed enough then to be told he was a "recruit." Other program we considered told us he had a spot for one year and after that he had to make the team moving forward.

Son is bouncing back to his credit, working out hard to gain strength and get better and willing to give it another shot.

Going to be a tough spring when team is playing and he's not part of it and his roommate is. That's life, can't make excuses and need to either bounce back and prove himself or give it up. Hopefully a good outcome next year and a lesson learned, NOTHING IS A GUARANTEE.

I have to say, the more of these D3 school threads I read, especially those with JV programs, the more happy I am that my son chose a very good DI school and the possibility of club baseball over a small, top-ranked D3 school with a JV baseball program and giant rosters!