Regaining lost velo

Football and baseball at the same time?

Your son needs a break, he isn't a robot, sounds like his body needs time to shut down and recover. he has to decide which is more important.

JMO.

Sounds like fatigue is setting in a bit. Wouldn't hurt to take some time off and think about where you want to committ- baseball or football. It's really just too taxing to try to do both at the same time.

Sounds like the velocity was going down after your summer tournaments but BEFORE football. I agree with Gingerbread that it sounds like fatigue. Fatigue is normal for young players after the high school and summer seasons, particularly for a starter that logs lots of pitches.

Your son definitely sounds like a D1 prospect so the loss of velocity could hurt him at the October events. Could question durability or arm injury?

Personally I like to see kids play more than just baseball. The specialization of one sport athletes detracts from the high school experience IMHO. You only get a chance to be a high school athlete once!

johnj314,

Without seeing your Son's pitching motion, there's no way to tell whether its fatigue or mechanical.

Depending upon his physical conditioning routine, you may be able to rule out fatigue??? Based upon his velocity fluctuations, I tend to lean toward mechanical, but I really can't definitely say this is so without seeing his motion.

Do you have a recent pitching motion video you can post?

L.A. "Skip" Fast
Pro Pitching Institute

Definitely sounds like fatigue. I'm not a big fan of baseball/football (at least simultaneously). If playing football is important enough, I'd shut him down on the baseball side.

This is unusual advice from me, as I believe in long-toss year-round. But arm problems are usually caused from fatigue (and overuse). Why take that chance? Give him a break.

2013 son pitched three innings today in showcase tourney at Lindenwood U. Sat 80-82 in three innings of work...I am going to try to load two videos for you Pro Pitching Inst (and anyone else who wants to look). One will be from the 2012 WWB when he topped at 88 at Kell HS and a second one from today at Lindenwood. And yes, he played football last night going both ways at DE and FB/TE...but the velo was already going down two weeks before he started football...

So you still insisted on forging ahead? Went both ways in football and a followup baseball showcase? Are you not getting it? I'm starting to think dad may be his worst enemy.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
So you still insisted on forging ahead? Went both ways in football and a followup baseball showcase? Are you not getting it? I'm starting to think dad may be his worst enemy.

I am with you Bum, dad was given excellent advice, not sure what the purpose of any video would prove.

Just can't beleive that your son played football last night and pitched today and you still wonder why his velo is down? I mean what exactly are the expectations?

FWIW, the main reason a pitcher looses his velocity is usually due to an injury, which might not have surfaced yet, so with that in mind, you should have shut down the pitching.

I am a pretty firm beleiver if the player has decent baseball skills and pretty good football skills, his athleticism will get him noticed, he doesn't need to do all of the extra fall stuff.

JMO.

Do you actually think he is going to regain his lost velo by playing two sports at the same time? Can playing two sports at the same time help him pitch right now? He had to be fatigued on the mound after playing both ways on Friday night. I could hardly move the next day after a football game. You really need to think about shutting down the baseball while he is playing football. JMO

johnj don't be surprised if the loss of velocity is due to mechanics. But don't be surprised either if the mechanical problem is due to playing two sports at the same time. The body can only do so much and last so long. Like Coach May said - when I played football I could barely move the next day.

Plus this isn't fair to his buddies on the football team. Obviously if he's playing both ways then he's an important part of the team. If he gets hurt playing baseball from an injury or finally breaking down and can't play Friday nights then that's wrong. He made a commitment to the football team and he's taking a chance by playing both.

Give your son a break from baseball. If he's performing in the spring and summer then the fall won't make or break him. Let him be young and enjoy playing football because if he chooses baseball then he will never play football again.

johnj, please post the videos. I can see football taking a couple mph off but clearly, from what you describe, the speed was down a couple of weeks before football started.

Could be fatigue, could be mechanics. There may be a small hiccup in his delivery that is easily curable. But the arm fatigue is much more of a concern. How much did he throw between high school and summer? I'll bet he's been ridden like a horse for the last four months!

You've said he's pitching and playing football. Is he also a position player for baseball? Many times kids play a postion for 4-5 innings and then come in to pitch and see lower velocity.

I think that it is great that he is playing two sports. I would think that would also impress the scouts.

Elroy, whether he's hurt or whether he's fatigued, either way he should shut down.

IMHO baseball scouts want to see baseball players. The kid is a rising junior in h.s. I doubt the football will impress.

When coaches come out next spring and they are watching two guys throw. One throws 87-89 - "He has a good arm but he doesn't play football." One is throwing 80-83 "He lacks velo but he plays football." It simply doesn't work that way.

Your son needs to make a decision and if he can't do it you need to do it for him. Shut him down from baseball, get him looked at to make sure there are no medical issues and enjoy the football season. Then get back to work as soon as the season is over.

Or - Continue to think that somehow something crazy is going to happen and his velo is going to jump the next time out for no apparent reason. Good luck

Thanks to everyone who has posted here. My son and I know that it is hard to play football and baseball simultaneously. He's been doing it every year since sixth grade. No one is pulling teeth making him to both...Also, the "showcase" term I used in describing last Saturdays game maybe was not the best term to use. It was a local tournament that the STL Gamers organization put on for several midwest clubs. Anyway, for Pro Pitcher Institute and anyone else that wants to take a look and chime in, here are theee videos of him pitching. One from June 23rd when he sat 84-87, one from July 11th where he was 84-88 and one from Saturday when he was 80-82.

6-23-11- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpqAGVQ56rA

7-11-11- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30udkQLdrYg

8-27-11- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5BXriueuY4

Again, let me reirerate that the velo was down 4-5 mph two weeks before football started...

I think below was the best advice given to you. It may be his mechanics, sometimes mechanics get messed up when there is an injury. How would anyone here know if he was hurt or not?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Your son needs to make a decision and if he can't do it you need to do it for him. Shut him down from baseball, get him looked at to make sure there are no medical issues and enjoy the football season. Then get back to work as soon as the season is over.

quote:

Originally posted by johnj314:
Thanks to everyone who has posted here. My son and I know that it is hard to play football and baseball simultaneously. He's been doing it every year since sixth grade. No one is pulling teeth making him to both...Also, the "showcase" term I used in describing last Saturdays game maybe was not the best term to use. It was a local tournament that the STL Gamers organization put on for several midwest clubs. Anyway, for Pro Pitcher Institute and anyone else that wants to take a look and chime in, here are theee videos of him pitching. One from June 23rd when he sat 84-87, one from July 11th where he was 84-88 and one from Saturday when he was 80-82.

6-23-11- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpqAGVQ56rA

7-11-11- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30udkQLdrYg

8-27-11- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5BXriueuY4

Again, let me reirerate that the velo was down 4-5 mph two weeks before football started...

It appears he doesn't have the same intensity and that he is opening up a bit earlier in the last video. Lack of explosiveness could be due to injury or fatigue.

johnj314,

I'm not going to try and break down your son's mechanics from the videos. I will say that he appeared to get a little too fine (aiming) and his front side was opening too soon, as he was falling off towards 1st base. Is it an arm issue? Is he just tired? He's a big strong kid, how's his core strength? After watching the second video from the WWBA tourney, it's evident that his travel coach doesn't have a clue, JMO. Your son was struggling, yet there wasn't a visit from a coach or the catcher during the entire inning, until he came out to pull him. Sometimes a quick visit is needed to get back on rhythm, but who knows? It's difficult to tell from the video.

There's nothing wrong with shutting him down for a couple of months and enjoying football season. He still has plenty of time in the winter to get prepared for the spring high school season. If you're worried about his ability to be seen this fall for recruiting purposes, then you need to sit down with your son and talk to him about his goals. Also, don't get hung up on rankings, instead, work on things that your son can control. IMHO, let him enjoy his junior year of high school. It sounds like he's already made the decision to play football...so this is not the time to stress about loss of velocity. Good Luck.

Was his stride shorter in the final video?

All I can say is, amazing. So your son has been doing this since sixth grade.

Of course it works in 6th grade. I could eat Chinese lunch by the time the ball crosses the plate.

I can't predict the future but it doesn't look good.

I know that some people here think that I am a real witch. I admit that is often true. I have my reasons. That's all I can say.

Usually I do a past topic search when trying to answer a question, it just gives me a better idea of what's really going on.

I didn't do a search when I responded in this topic, but thought that what I said as well as what others stated was appropriate. That is why I tell people to be careful when they receive advice over the internet, videos don't always tell the whole story. And the same goes for those giving advice. How can one give advice when they haven't gotten all of the facts?

Looking back over your previous posts, your son plays football, basketball, baseball, had a sprained ankle and an ACL rupture in 2010 and you did post something about using a stim machine for elbow tenderness/tendinitous he gets fairly FREQUENTLY and another post in Feb 2010 (before all of the above) about his lack of velocity (see below).

I am a firm beleiver that for most either you have it or you don't. It may very well be that your son has it, somewhere, but regarding all that he has been through (what's with the frequent tendinitous), could very well be that you need to take a step backward and try to find out what is really going on, or if there is really anything going on at all. Seems like lots of stuff went on that has been counter productive, or maybe he just doesn't have the velo you expect from someone his size and age (he's a bit older for his grade) should have.

It also seems like you are pushing him very hard in looking for that college baseball/football scholarship, which is NOT going to happen if your son is hurt. As a 2013, for baseball, he is now going through a very crucial time in the recruiting process, your son already shows signs of wear and tear, so I am not really surprised of what has happened. Yup I agree that some college coaches like players that play other sports (as mentioned in one topic by PG on another thread) but as I had stated playing those other sports are useless if the player is hurt or gets hurt.

BTW, Sultan may have touched upon something with your son's stride. You might want to look into that, but I think that most important step would be to give your son a rest.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...4941/m/174103383/p/1

JMO

Are you a good witch or a bad witch?

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Are you a good witch or a bad witch?

Seriously, some have a problem with a woman who dares to expouse her opinion on a man's game.

Not me. I admire your tenacity and willingness to put yourself out there. You have always offered strong opinions and insight into this game from a unique perspective. You should be proud of your son and his accomplishments (I'm sure you are) and I'm hoping someday I can be so lucky as to experience what you have as a parent of a minor leaguer. Anyone who thinks a mom can't learn from that and pass her knowledge onto others I would guess does not have a son at that level. One thing I've learned along the way is there are always those that don't listen because they think their kid is somehow different and special. This game has a way of humbling all.

Bum- What's even worse is when the player himself doesn't listen. Some find it shocking that someone might ACTUALLY be able to help them get better.

When you see a significant velocity drop in a player this age it is a good idea to see a top notch sports doctor. It may simply be aiming the ball with no injury. It may be aiming the ball as a result of an injury. It may be purely the result of an injury. It may be fatigue. It may just be normal variation.

Personally, I didn't see anything that stood out as different between the clips, but I'm no expert so that's not a surprise.

Based on experience it is worth checking for an injury before there's pain.

Depending on the football program and how they do things... Depending on the position played in football... Many different muscles at work in football that aren't used as much in pitching. Typically after a football practice, players are completely gassed and sore.

So it is entirely possible that loss in velocity is simply a result of tightness caused from the body recovering from football participation. This could lead to arm injury. Maybe light throwing during football season would be a better way to go during the footnall season... or no throwing at all.

Loss of velocity, obviously means something has changed. Often it is a result of tightness. This tightness isn't just related to the arm. Football can cause temporary tightness or stiffness or fatigue in many areas of the body. Pitchers with a sore toe will lose velocity! Sore neck, sore abs, tight legs, etc. can all cause problems. Tired, worn out bodies, minor injuries, are all potential problems when trying to pitch at 100%.

Most minor injuries or over worked muscles or fatigue problems are completely recovered in two weeks. That is why they have the "15 day" DL.

I've seen some who have pitched very well while playing football... Seems that many position players do both very well... But to me... Pitching and playing competitive football at the same time don't mix. Could be counter productive to your baseball future and probably not fair to your football team either.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Personally, I didn't see anything that stood out as different between the clips, but I'm no expert so that's not a surprise.

This may be the only time I have ever disagreed with you, CA Dad. You sir are an expert for sure.

opinions do not mean knowledge

Bum I agree.

Thanks to all who have commented and contributed to this thread. Sorry I haven't posted in a few days as I've been without the laptop...I know that when you post things on the web you open yourself up for shots and both the good and the bad. I have thick skin and can take it. What I've come to realize, after seeking not only this board's opinions but those of his summer coaches and others who's opinions I value, is that as a 17 year old things are quite a bit harder on the body than they were even a couple years ago. As TPM researched (I applaud your research!) 2013 son tore his ACL March 29, 2011 while playing basketball simulataneously with hs baseball (that basketball is a rough sport!). The recovery eliminated football last fall, so it's been two years since he's done the football/baseball thing. Two years take these kids from man/child to young men and the demands of these sports at the higher age/maturity definitely take it out of them. Another contibuting factor is that he's been throwing non-stop since last June and threw a considerable amount of pitches this summer. In previous years we've always completely shut things down for about three months to give the arm a break. The elbow tendinitis (Kudo's again TPM!) has always been an issue when he resumes throwing as he did last summer after taking three months off with the knee recovery (stim machine was for the knee and tried on the elbow). He has no arm pain or injuries from either baseball or football (knock on wood). His body (and arm) are just showing the signs of fatigue from the long amount of time he's been throwing hard and now the football just exasperates things. It manifests itself in the loss of velocity...So he's going to stop pitching for a few weeks and keep up the long toss and then the third week of September start throwing bullpens and see where the velo is at and evaluate then if he's going to play in the Kernals and Underclass. And yes I am concerned about scholarship opportunities (in baseball NOT football) and the ramifications of being seen by coaches in the low to mid 80's after a summer being seen in the high 80's. Again, I know some of you will shoot me for going this route but this is not my decision, it's his (with his summer coaches suggestions), just like the decision to play football is his. My wife and I encourage him to make his own decisions regarding his endeavors. He has decided to give up basketball (even though the coaches are hounding him) which we support. Just like we support (very reluctantly) his decision to play football after the ACL tear...I do appreciate everyone's contributions here and I know many of you don't approve of playing football/baseball simulataneously especially for a pitcher. Thats just the way it is.

quote:

Originally posted by johnj314:
The elbow tendinitis (Kudo's again TPM!) has always been an issue when he resumes throwing.

This shouldn't happen if he is in a good throwing program that takes you from long toss, to flat ground to the mound. Make sure that he is following a regimented program. And FWIW, frequent bouts with elbow tendinitous may mean an underlying issue.

I am not too sure that young players eager to participate in sports can always make the right decisions for themselves. I believe that young players should make decisions, but when it comes to health concerns you need to step in. But no one can tell anyone what they should and shouldn't do.

If it were my player, regardless of other sports involved, a small copay to a sports orthopeadic doctor would make a whole lot of sense before he starts up on the mound again. If anything just to make sure the problem (lower velo) isn't a warning sign for something more complicated.

I didn't mean to get on ya, just alot of stuff going on that could or could not contribute to his velo decrease, not always seen in a video (that's why I am opposed to people making recommendations as to what to fix when they don't know the entire situation).

Best of luck.

johnj,
First, I commend you for gathering a lot of info from multiple sources to make your decision. These issues are not easy, but really, great problems to have. We are very blessed when our kids are talented enough to still have these choices and have to make these decisions when they are at the end of their HS years.

A player in our program is in almost the identical situation your son is in, less much of the injury history. A very young 2012 - plays football, basketball, baseball and a pitcher who is in the low 80's but projects. He and his folks are struggling with the football issue. I believe, for him, if he had previously been in the upper 80's, that would easily tilt the scales toward dropping football, as it would present a higher likelyhood of a D1 opportunity. Just some more food for thought.

Changing gears - about a year ago, after two concussions, our son wanted to get back out and play hockey, as well as football. He REALLY wanted to play and was getting the usual encouragement from peers and coaches. Even after all of the medical evidence was presented to him, he would have been out there in a heartbeat. We had to close the door on that one. Similar to TPM's comments, yes, we need to allow our HS kids to think for themselves and make many of their own decisions but there are many times when we must intervene, suggest, slam our foot down, etc. But, that could definitely be a whole other topic here.
Best of luck.

Update on sons loss of velocity for those that posted-

Son took a few off weeks off from hard throwning or pitching in games or BP's. Started back hard in third week of September and really committed himself to getting ready for the PG Kernals and Underclass. At the Kernals last Sunday morning he topped out at 86 and had four K's in two innings. This morning at the Underclass topped out at 87 with six K's in five innings of 2-1 victory. He's now shut down and won't throw a baseball hard until Christmas break. Three more football games remain and he has decided to call it a career and focus strictly on baseball. Thanks to all that have posted.