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RH pick off without stepping off rubber?

M MNFroshdad10+ posts
Found this site searching for HS baseball rules, and have been lurking for a while. Great site and I especially like this board. A few days ago I came across the explanation that the number of bases a runner gets on a pick off throw that goes out of play depends on if the pitcher has stepped off the rubber. This happen to my son in a 9th grade game yesterday, he stepped off the rubber and air mailed the throw to first and it went out of play. Umpire correctly awarded 2 bases. Had I not read the explanation here I would have thought it should be one base. I was able to explain it to a few other parents, they all thought I had memorized the HS rule book to know this rule. So Thanks to all the umps here for making me look much smarter then I am.

Now to my question(s). Is there a way for a RH pitcher to legally throw to first without disengaging from the rubber? Does it depend on if he has come to the set position or not? If it matters I am interested in the HS rules. I have always been under the assumption that a RH pitcher has to step off, but thought I would ask the experts. Thanks in advance.
How can you think and hit at the same time? - Yogi
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WelpeWelpe10+ posts
Welcome to the site. Thank you for taking the time to do the research and to become informed!

To answer your question, yes it is perfectly legal for an RHP to step and throw to first while engaged on the rubber as long as he is not in the windup under HS rules.

There are several moves you'll see, the jump turn and jab step are two. On the jump turn, as you can imagine he jumps with both feet, turning towards first and throws. The jab step is when he takes a step towards Third with his pivot foot and then steps towards first and throws.

He can also just step and throw. As long as he gains distance and direction towards first with his free foot, those moves are all legal.
B BjaversMember
If I am remembering correctly the rule book and sorry i do not have it in front of me at the moment the ruling is something like this. If an infielder throws a ball out of play like in the situation you talked about runner is awarded 2 bases. However if a pitcher throws the ball out of play on a pickoff move the runner is only allowed 1 base. Basically by a right hander steping of the back of the rubber with the right foot he now becomes an infielder making a throw not a pitcher making a pickoff move, that is the reason for the ruling. If you pitcher just does the more normal jump spin to pick to first and throws it out of play the runner would only get second base. Also if a fielder is making a play on a hit ball and throws it out of play they are awarded first base and second base, so the runner would be at second, if a pitcher steps off throws to first ball goes out of play again awarded two bases this time second and third.
M MNFroshdad10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Welpe:
Welcome to the site. Thank you for taking the time to do the research and to become informed!

To answer your question, yes it is perfectly legal for an RHP to step and throw to first while engaged on the rubber as long as he is not in the windup under HS rules.

There are several moves you'll see, the jump turn and jab step are two. On the jump turn, as you can imagine he jumps with both feet, turning towards first and throws. The jab step is when he takes a step towards Third with his pivot foot and then steps towards first and throws.

He can also just step and throw. As long as he gains distance and direction towards first with his free foot, those moves are all legal.


Thanks for the reply Welpe. I should have been more clear. I think of the jump move and jab step as disengaging from the rubber as the pivot foot typically ends up off the rubber. "He can also just step and throw" is interesting, and really what I should have asked. I always thought a RHP had to disengage the pivot foot (as happens in the jump turn and jab step) on a pickoff or it would be considered a balk. Of course for a RHP to have his pivot foot remain on the rubber and still make a good throw to first is pretty awkward, so this is probably a moot point.
M MNFroshdad10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bjavers:
If I am remembering correctly the rule book and sorry i do not have it in front of me at the moment the ruling is something like this. If an infielder throws a ball out of play like in the situation you talked about runner is awarded 2 bases. However if a pitcher throws the ball out of play on a pickoff move the runner is only allowed 1 base. Basically by a right hander steping of the back of the rubber with the right foot he now becomes an infielder making a throw not a pitcher making a pickoff move, that is the reason for the ruling. If you pitcher just does the more normal jump spin to pick to first and throws it out of play the runner would only get second base. Also if a fielder is making a play on a hit ball and throws it out of play they are awarded first base and second base, so the runner would be at second, if a pitcher steps off throws to first ball goes out of play again awarded two bases this time second and third.


Thanks for the info Bjavers. This quote "If you pitcher just does the more normal jump spin to pick to first and throws it out of play the runner would only get second base." is very helpful. I did not realize that the two moves: 1)stepping backward off the rubber and 2)performing a jump spin, are treated differently when it comes to the out of play throw rule. It seems in either case the RHP is disengaging from the rubber and would then be considered a fielder and not a pitcher? Sorry if I am splitting hairs here, just trying to understand the rule. Thanks!
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
In order for a pitcher to legally disengage the rubber, he must step backwards and place his pivot foot behind the rubber.

A typical jump turn or jab step move will usually result in the pivot foot coming off, but not behind, the rubber. Therefore, although it is a legal move, it is not a legal disengagement. The pitcher is still considered to be engaged, and the award for an overthrow is one base. Also, since he is still engaged, the pitcher is not permitted to fake a throw to 1st base with a jump turn or jab step move.
POLOGREENPOLOGREEN1,000+ posts
quote:
If I am remembering correctly the rule book and sorry i do not have it in front of me at the moment the ruling is something like this. If an infielder throws a ball out of play like in the situation you talked about runner is awarded 2 bases. However if a pitcher throws the ball out of play on a pickoff move the runner is only allowed 1 base. Basically by a right hander steping of the back of the rubber with the right foot he now becomes an infielder making a throw not a pitcher making a pickoff move, that is the reason for the ruling. If you pitcher just does the more normal jump spin to pick to first and throws it out of play the runner would only get second base. Also if a fielder is making a play on a hit ball and throws it out of play they are awarded first base and second base, so the runner would be at second, if a pitcher steps off throws to first ball goes out of play again awarded two bases this time second and third.


The easy way to remember this (for me) has been "one from the mound, two from the field" so if he steps back he is now an infielder. Steps back = two, jump turn = one
WelpeWelpe10+ posts
FroshDad, as dash already mentioned both the jab step and jump turn are considered throws while engaged.

Also on a side note in HS the pitcher is not required to disengage the rubber on the third to first move and a throw out of play in that situation would also be just one base but two bases if he does disengage.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Blindguy:
To continue the quote Dash references …while throwing or feinting …

If the pitcher is allowed to feint, would that not mean he disengaged properly?

Only if the feint is to 1st base. The pitcher must be legally disengaged in order to feint a throw to 1st. At 2nd or 3rd, a feint is legal whether or not the pitcher is engaged, provided he steps to the base first.
quote:
Would that not mean if the pitcher sails the ball into the stands, a two base award would ensue?

Engaged - one base; not engaged - two bases. Always, any base.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
PBUC and MLBUM: "If a pitcher, while touching his plate, jumps into the air with both feet simultaneously and his non-pivot foot lands in a step towards first base before he throws to that base, he has made a legal move."

Jimmy:
Because there is no mention in the OBR about a jump or jab step, that's why I say there is no rule support and through interp. It is mentioned in the PBUC and MLBUM but that makes it an interp not a rule.
To be honest I hadn't realized Fed had put the jump move in their rules language. Thanks Dash.
Last edited by Michael S. Taylor
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
PBUC and MLBUM: "If a pitcher, while touching his plate, jumps into the air with both feet simultaneously and his non-pivot foot lands in a step towards first base before he throws to that base, he has made a legal move."

Jimmy:
Because there is no mention in the OBR about a jump or jab step, that's why I say there is no rule support and through interp. It is mentioned in the PBUC and MLBUM but that makes it an interp not a rule.
To be honest I hadn't realized Fed had put the jump move in their rules language. Thanks Dash.


Not to nitpick, but you did not mention rule support, you said they were illegal and balks. However, the instructructions to umpires from MLB,the owners and final arbiters of the rules says specifically that the move is legal. Ergo, it is legal.
NK NW Knights07100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Welpe:
He can also just step and throw. As long as he gains distance and direction towards first with his free foot, those moves are all legal.


I just wanted to get a clarification on this rule. You could only do this before in the set position, correct? As I first interperate this rule, a RHP could be reciving the sign from his catcher before in the set position, and then step with his left foot towards 1B to pick off a runner?

I have never seen this move used in my 5 or so years of "big boy ball", and wouldn't mind adding this to my arsenal of picks.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
PBUC and MLBUM: "If a pitcher, while touching his plate, jumps into the air with both feet simultaneously and his non-pivot foot lands in a step towards first base before he throws to that base, he has made a legal move."

Jimmy:
Because there is no mention in the OBR about a jump or jab step, that's why I say there is no rule support and through interp. It is mentioned in the PBUC and MLBUM but that makes it an interp not a rule.
To be honest I hadn't realized Fed had put the jump move in their rules language. Thanks Dash.


Not to nitpick, but you did not mention rule support, you said they were illegal and balks. However, the instructructions to umpires from MLB,the owners and final arbiters of the rules says specifically that the move is legal. Ergo, it is legal.

I believe I said it was technically balks but through common usage and interp it is considered legal.
There is no rule support in OBR but there are interps from both PBUC and MLB so you are correct, it is legal.
My point for the statement was he wouldn't find guidance in the rulebook, which is true.

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