Skip to main content

32 replies

Rhythm in Swing...

OnWabanaOnWabana100+ posts
I've heard this term in the scouting community many times before. It makes sense to me to an extent. You can see it in the better hitters; everything seems to flow into the ball. But what is it exactly? Can it be taught? If so, how do you teach it?

-------------------
Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think. Ralph Waldo Emerson
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

P Prime91,000+ posts
Sorry, I was being a little too cute. Athletic grace one is born with ... I think. You enhance skills by repetion and the movements will flow better as a result of thousands of hours of practice.

But, others can spend the same number of hours and be reasonably good but will never have that beautiful, effortless movement (swing)that I envisioned with your question.

does that make more sense?
BW Bob Williams500+ posts
When you hit off a tee or soft toss or take BP, place
on your i-pod or audio box music to "hit by".

Once at a Area Code tryout for the White Sox in South Bend, the pro scouts said "Bob I hear you can tell "bat speed" over the phone. Of course, I answered in the affirmative.

The Scouting Director said "maybe we could hire Stevie Wonder as a scout. I said, yes he could give you rhythm!

Today, Robinson Cano has great swing rhythm.
It starts with the hips. Ted Williams had a great rhythm "swing and sway". It can be tought if you have a willing student.

Bob
N ncball100+ posts
Good rhythm, in my opinion, is being able to move the body so its relaxed and "on time" with the pitch. A moving body is an active body that is able to fire and the ability to be "on time" at "game speed" is the most important aspect of hitting. It can make up for a lot of poor swings.

Watch a pro guy take BP and it's like ballet. They are always trying to find that rhythm to be "on time".
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.

Herein' lies the problem...

Rhythm is efficient Kinetic chain (as any college PE major will tell us)...the abilty to bring bat to ball with maximum speed with minimum effort is the essence of kinetic chain. Simply put, crack the whip. The energy flows smoothly down the whip/body from part to part seemlessly and is released without effort at the end. That is what you see in great hitters as ncball mentioned, pure kinetic chain...at it's finest. It is also why style can differ a great deal and does, the bottom line is efficent kinetic chain, not a dogmatic mechnaical style.

The problem is that Mechanics and mechanical corrections are often given without any deference to kinetic chain, the result is a swing with the right mechanical parts but out of rhythm, much like a whip with a rigid section...the chain is broken, the kinetic energy blocked.

Also athletes blessed with great strength have a physical desire to muscle which breaks kinetic chain. They have to be trained to find/feel rhythm, then given back the strength where it is a multiplyer rather than the foundation. With strength as a multiplyer these players can do incredible things.

Players without that great born stregnth often try to overcompensate for lack of power, taking themslevs out of ryhthm and robbing themselves of easy power.

Rhythm and power can be taught. In fact they are the easiest thing to teach beause they are innate, the body understands ryhthm, it "feels" when the chain is right. The problem is that hitting is most often taught mechnically, which, unless one is careful is directly counter to kinetic chain, and gets a hitter or pitcher into his own head trying to micromanage the parts of the stroke, rather than into the feel or ryhthm that is kinetic chain and is what they seek. That is why music is an excellent teaching tool, out of the head and into the feel. Working with the chain and the body instead of against it.

Certainly some are gifted in that espect and others are not, (like most all tools) but it most definately can be worked and taught and elevated and emphasised.

Cool 44
.
Last edited by observer44
observer44observer441,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
And, is why sequencing body movement is so important....

Most Coaches have a hissy-fit when sequencing body movement is mentioned 'cause they don't understand it....


Most poor dance instructors want to choreograph not teach dance...the good ones understand the art. That holds true in all fields.

Heck of a lot easier to regurgitate well worn hitting/pitching dogma than it is to think...and learn to understand the true art of the physical and mental development of athletes.

Cool 44
.
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
quote:
Simply put, crack the whip...............the bottom line is efficent kinetic chain, not a dogmatic mechnaical style.


Well said and one of the reasons why I don't believe in using drills to teach the swing.....

Do a search and you will find I've explained sequencing more than once....

You may even wanna figure it out yourself...

Last edited by BlueDog
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.

Thanks, floridafan...

Answering the posed question...

Honestly, IMO, this far more sports science detail that is required (see above) but, OK...I'll take the bait...

The simple version...

The foot bone connected to the leg bone,
The leg bone connected to the knee bone,
The knee bone connected to the thigh bone,
The thigh bone connected to the back bone,
The back bone connected to the shoulder bone,
The shoulder bone connected to the arm bone
The arm bone connected to the wrist bone”


And If we really must...The sports science version...Parapharased from sports science journal and edited...

The parts of the body act as a system of chain links, whereby the energy or force generated by one link (or part of the body) can be transferred successively to the next link. The link system starts from torque with the ground. The optimum coordination (timing/rhythm) of body segments and their movements will allow for the efficient transfer of energy and power up through the body, moving from one body segment to the next. Each movement in the sequence builds upon the previous motion and they all contribute to the generation of Bat speed.

This transfer of energy in sequential coordination is also enhanced by the stretch-shortening cycle of muscle action. The stretch-shortening cycle involves the active stretching (the muscle is activated but is elongated by another force) of a muscle in a countermovement immediately followed by a more forceful shortening of the muscle in the desired direction. For example, the chest and shoulder muscles are actively stretched (coaches often use the cue “loading” here) as the trunk rotates (see below) into the swing and the inertia of the arm, wrist and and bat cause them to lag behind in sequence. When they catch up, the whip is cracked and the energy is released.

The active stretch of the muscle stores energy in the elastic elements of muscle and associated tissues such as tendons, which is reused as the muscle begins to shorten. This sequence of muscular coordination tends to be chosen naturally by the brain, but sometimes this must be coached in players who develop pauses, that in turn lead to missed segment rotations or problems in sequencing segments.

The most effective swings begin with leg drive generating ground reaction forces that can be transferred up the segments of the kinetic chain to the Bat. Proper sequential timing of the segments in the kinematic chain and stretch-shortening cycle muscle actions maximize the transfer of energy to generate the greatest bat speed.

Baseball Swings typically involve five major kinematic links that the player has to coordinate. In most cases the swing is based on a sequential summing of the motions of the legs, trunk, arm, forearm, and wrist/hands.

---

If this is a velied attempt to make the case for it being a rotational action, it is...sort of, but that is FAR too simplistic an explaination in kinetic/kinesthetic terms. It would be more kinetically correct (thought still far too simplistic) to say that kinetic chain is a series of small rotations connected sequentially/rhythmically, transferred late into some slight level of linear motion depending upon pitch location and desired directional intention.

Fire away...


Cool 44
.
Last edited by observer44
N ncball100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:
.

Thanks, floridafan...

Answering the posed question...

Honestly, IMO, this far more sports science detail that is required (see above) but, OK...I'll take the bait...

The simple version...

The foot bone connected to the leg bone,
The leg bone connected to the knee bone,
The knee bone connected to the thigh bone,
The thigh bone connected to the back bone,
The back bone connected to the shoulder bone,
The shoulder bone connected to the arm bone
The arm bone connected to the wrist bone”


And If we really must...The sports science version...Parapharased from sports science journal and edited...

The parts of the body act as a system of chain links, whereby the energy or force generated by one link (or part of the body) can be transferred successively to the next link. The link system starts from torque with the ground. The optimum coordination (timing/rhythm) of body segments and their movements will allow for the efficient transfer of energy and power up through the body, moving from one body segment to the next. Each movement in the sequence builds upon the previous motion and they all contribute to the generation of Bat speed.

This transfer of energy in sequential coordination is also enhanced by the stretch-shortening cycle of muscle action. The stretch-shortening cycle involves the active stretching (the muscle is activated but is elongated by another force) of a muscle in a countermovement immediately followed by a more forceful shortening of the muscle in the desired direction. For example, the chest and shoulder muscles are actively stretched (coaches often use the cue “loading” here) as the trunk rotates (see below) into the swing and the inertia of the arm, wrist and and bat cause them to lag behind in sequence. When they catch up, the whip is cracked and the energy is released.

The active stretch of the muscle stores energy in the elastic elements of muscle and associated tissues such as tendons, which is reused as the muscle begins to shorten. This sequence of muscular coordination tends to be chosen naturally by the brain, but sometimes this must be coached in players who develop pauses, that in turn lead to missed segment rotations or problems in sequencing segments.

The most effective swings begin with leg drive generating ground reaction forces that can be transferred up the segments of the kinetic chain to the Bat. Proper sequential timing of the segments in the kinematic chain and stretch-shortening cycle muscle actions maximize the transfer of energy to generate the greatest bat speed.

Baseball Swings typically involve five major kinematic links that the player has to coordinate. In most cases the swing is based on a sequential summing of the motions of the legs, trunk, arm, forearm, and wrist/hands.

---

If this is a velied attempt to make the case for it being a rotational action, it is...sort of, but that is FAR too simplistic an explaination in kinetic/kinesthetic terms. It would be more kinetically correct (thought still far too simplistic) to say that kinetic chain is a series of small rotations connected sequentially/rhythmically, transferred late into some slight level of linear motion depending upon pitch location and desired directional intention.

Fire away...


Cool 44
.


Observer- You mentioned rotational. I believe all great hitters' swings are initially linear and become rotational. How else do you get weight to your front foot if your weight doesn't initially shift linearly forward then rotate around that front hip after firming up?
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
quote:
I believe all great hitters' swings are initially linear and become rotational. How else do you get weight to your front foot if your weight doesn't initially shift linearly forward then rotate around that front hip after firming up?


ncball....I would agree with that....with a some caveat...and a warning....


In order to answer we need to get more into this...


quote:
It would be more kinetically correct (thought still far too simplistic) to say that kinetic chain is a series of small rotations connected sequentially/rhythmically, transferred late into some slight level of linear motion depending upon pitch location and desired directional intention.



The caveat again is that when talking ryhthm and kinetic chain in a technical sense there is no black or white, no completely linear OR rotational...each section of the chain has both linear and rotational elements. AND if we simplify the thing scientifically and then judge each section as to being predominatly linear or rotaional..scientifically it looks like this...

IMO....An observation can be made that the swing actually starts in what kineseologists call a "loading phase"...or in common terms a "coil". A coil is stored energy that is released like watchspring and it does so in torque with/against the ground. It may be small and hard to pick up in soem hitters, or it may be exaggerated like Oh the Japanese power guy who coiled like crazy, but it is there. The most efficent natural kinetic way out of a coil is rotation, and it happens so quickly in some hitters that it is easy to miss it unless you know what you are looking for. The problem is that if that released energy continues primarily rotationa/sideways it is off the ball....instead after a small fraction of a second of primarilily rotational the energy in the chain is then trasnferred more linear a longer more predominatly (not exclusively) linear phase by the stride to redirect it to the path of the ball. Now the swing is predominantly linear, but still holding it's rotational elements. The energy is still moving and it is still usable and in control, the body has given the brain all the elements it needs to decide to release into the ball, which the brain decides. A great example of this is the hiting Guru Gary Ward at New Mexico State,(Leading the DI NCAA in 7 offensive categories http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/ranksummary ) his hitters get to this linear phase on almost every pitch, ready to release, way ahead of the "game". Few others do this as dramatically, and are so easy to see doing so.

At some point the decision is made to release and the body transfers back into predominatly (not exclsuively) rotational motion to and generate more bat speed...but, and here is the caveat again...depending upon were the pitch is, if it is to be pulled, driven forward or "oppoed" the rotational motion is again switched by some percentage through the hands (firing) back into a some level of linear motion depending upon specific individual situational circumstances.

So, my caveat again is that there is no either or...the swing is a combination of linear and rotaional elements in which those elements are varied in order to foster kinetic chain in specifc circumstance. the most important aspect being "foster kinetic chain". The specific mix, in part, is effecient kinetic chain, more of one or the other creates a style, too of one or the other much in the wrong sequences is ryhthmic disaster. Case in point, had some young atheltes who went to camp and came back "spinning like tops" becasue they had been assured by their coaches that overaxaggerated hip rotations and "hitting in circles" was the mechanical technique that would take them to the majors. A overexaggerated point for sure, but
so is turning hitting into an "either or".

The arugment comes when we get singularly dogmatic. The problem comes when we as instructors over empahsise one or the other too much or out of sequence...or as I said in the first post...dogma, without proper deference to kinetic chain which is the goal from a mechanical standpoint.

Cool 44
.
observer44observer441,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Hitters without a stride can swing either linear or rotational.


Yep, agreed.

In the end the hands, and so the bat, "in the end" are the only thing that make actual physical contact with the ball. It is physically possible therefor to hit on a single leg, or even facing the umpire with ones head twisted back to the pitcher in order to break all kinetic chain. And to hit and to to so with the hands and bat alone in either rotationally or in a linear fashion, and to be successful at it if contact alone is the goal.

All the other parts of the kinetic chain are simply optional multiplyers. The chain and the parts each muliplying/trasnferring energy.

So...The most basic question one has to ask then is, if it is possible to make contact without kinetic chain, to take all the other parts away, to hit with only the hands and bat in either a linear or rotational fashion...would one want to?

Cool
Last edited by observer44
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
It would be more kinetically correct (thought still far too simplistic) to say that kinetic chain is a series of small rotations connected sequentially/rhythmically, transferred late into some slight level of linear motion depending upon pitch location and desired directional intention.

Fire away...


44
.


Ob----44: Well stated! Discussing hitting on this forum seems similar to what it must be like to participate in a "circle jerk." If there isn't a vast difference in belief then "those" will argue semantics just to "see themselves speak."

Where is our "there is no such thing as linear or rotational ... guy? Why did I ask that?

I agree with your other opinion ref coil, recoil, load or whatever people want to call it ... but it must be there in all movements of power! At least, according to the Laws of Motion.

Hopefully, this never has to be debated again.
lol
N ncball100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:
.
quote:
I believe all great hitters' swings are initially linear and become rotational. How else do you get weight to your front foot if your weight doesn't initially shift linearly forward then rotate around that front hip after firming up?


ncball....I would agree with that....with a some caveat...and a warning....


In order to answer we need to get more into this...


quote:
It would be more kinetically correct (thought still far too simplistic) to say that kinetic chain is a series of small rotations connected sequentially/rhythmically, transferred late into some slight level of linear motion depending upon pitch location and desired directional intention.



The caveat again is that when talking ryhthm and kinetic chain in a technical sense there is no black or white, no completely linear OR rotational...each section of the chain has both linear and rotational elements. AND if we simplify the thing scientifically and then judge each section as to being predominatly linear or rotaional..scientifically it looks like this...

IMO....An observation can be made that the swing actually starts in what kineseologists call a "loading phase"...or in common terms a "coil". A coil is stored energy that is released like watchspring and it does so in torque with/against the ground. It may be small and hard to pick up in soem hitters, or it may be exaggerated like Oh the Japanese power guy who coiled like crazy, but it is there. The most efficent natural kinetic way out of a coil is rotation, and it happens so quickly in some hitters that it is easy to miss it unless you know what you are looking for. The problem is that if that released energy continues primarily rotationa/sideways it is off the ball....instead after a small fraction of a second of primarilily rotational the energy in the chain is then trasnferred more linear a longer more predominatly (not exclusively) linear phase by the stride to redirect it to the path of the ball. Now the swing is predominantly linear, but still holding it's rotational elements. The energy is still moving and it is still usable and in control, the body has given the brain all the elements it needs to decide to release into the ball, which the brain decides. A great example of this is the hiting Guru Gary Ward at New Mexico State,(Leading the DI NCAA in 7 offensive categories http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/ranksummary ) his hitters get to this linear phase on almost every pitch, ready to release, way ahead of the "game". Few others do this as dramatically, and are so easy to see doing so.

At some point the decision is made to release and the body transfers back into predominatly (not exclsuively) rotational motion to and generate more bat speed...but, and here is the caveat again...depending upon were the pitch is, if it is to be pulled, driven forward or "oppoed" the rotational motion is again switched by some percentage through the hands (firing) back into a some level of linear motion depending upon specific individual situational circumstances.

So, my caveat again is that there is no either or...the swing is a combination of linear and rotaional elements in which those elements are varied in order to foster kinetic chain in specifc circumstance. the most important aspect being "foster kinetic chain". The specific mix, in part, is effecient kinetic chain, more of one or the other creates a style, too of one or the other much in the wrong sequences is ryhthmic disaster. Case in point, had some young atheltes who went to camp and came back "spinning like tops" becasue they had been assured by their coaches that overaxaggerated hip rotations and "hitting in circles" was the mechanical technique that would take them to the majors. A overexaggerated point for sure, but
so is turning hitting into an "either or".

The arugment comes when we get singularly dogmatic. The problem comes when we as instructors over empahsise one or the other too much or out of sequence...or as I said in the first post...dogma, without proper deference to kinetic chain which is the goal from a mechanical standpoint.

Cool 44
.


So that's my point- there are linear and rotational parts in a good swing. You just said it much more eloquently!
N ncball100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
So many myths in one place.

"Linear swing" has nothing to do with weight shift.

Hitters without a stride can swing either linear or rotational.


I NEVER said stride. Please show me a clip of a hitter who has a linear swing that doesn't shift his weight forward to the front leg at contact.
H Harv100+ posts
Rhythm is rhythm. I have a kid who is totally digital and I'm striving to get him analog...not 1...2.3...4.....just pass thru 1,2,3,4 in a constant arc.

I tell him to "smile" and relax the grip...wiggle the fingers.

I point out that the kid on the team who has the highest batting average and has the most home runs also is day-to-day on academic eligibility...nothing going on upstairs.

I'm even trying rap music during BP as for all its faults....well it has rhythm be it African.

What makes it tough is the kid has rhythm in the field and on the mound....just thinking too much...my guess.

Rhythm's (and fundamentals) everything in hitting, but **** if I have a good idea on how to teach it....yet.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Rhythm is "movement marked by the regulated succession of strong and weak elements".

The seemingly effortless, smooth movement.

The swing is circular, almost free flowing movement around a fixed point.

The more circular, smoother the swing, the greater the accumulated mechanical advantage (bat speed).

Practical example : Park swing

Why doesn't a swing stop at the bottom?
Why does a swing continue to rise?
Why does the swing speed up even more at its greatest distance from the fixed point?

Is it magic?
Is it mechanics?
Is it science?

Who really cares?
Just relax and hit the ball.
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
Where is our "there is no such thing as linear or rotational ... guy? Why did I ask that?


I'm gonna guess...."Cause you're lost....

How does a baby learn to walk, rotational or linear?.....

I'll give you the answer if you need it.....


Please elaborate; never to old to learn!

If you are interested; I can bring some 1" pine boards and demonstrate how linear and rotational forces exist. If you want to hold them you can feel how much power can be generated by each and see, first hand, the results at impact.

Add Reply

Post
Baseball Sale Canada

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×