Right or wrong call

At the plate...

a.) No Tag
and
b.) No Touch
ergo
c.) No Call

cccsdad,
The MLB Umpires Manual says: "On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder miss the tag on the runner, it is preferable that the umpire make no signal on the play.

At first base, the accepted mechanic is to signal safe if the B/R passes first before the ball reaches the fielder.

I don't know the accepted mechanic if it is a force play at the plate.

quote:

Originally posted by pilsner:
At the plate...

a.) No Tag
and
b.) No Touch
ergo
c.) No Call

Well let me take it a step further. Let's say no tag, not touch, no call, the batter/runner heads towards the dugout, the defensive teams coach asks, well blue was he safe our out you didn't make a call, what do I do? Stand there and say nothing? I mean if I say, he missed the plate and the defensive team didn't see it, then I've basically given them and advantage. If I do nothing, then the defensive team, who may not have noticed the runner had missed home, now knows the runner missed home. My assumption was signal safe on the no tag and either wait for the d player to apply the tag or for the runner to return and tag the base. S. Taylor, what say you?

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:

quote:

Originally posted by pilsner:
At the plate...

a.) No Tag
and
b.) No Touch
ergo
c.) No Call

Well let me take it a step further. Let's say no tag, not touch, no call, the batter/runner heads towards the dugout, the defensive teams coach asks, well blue was he safe our out you didn't make a call, what do I do? Stand there and say nothing? I mean if I say, he missed the plate and the defensive team didn't see it, then I've basically given them and advantage. If I do nothing, then the defensive team, who may not have noticed the runner had missed home, now knows the runner missed home. My assumption was signal safe on the no tag and either wait for the d player to apply the tag or for the runner to return and tag the base. S. Taylor, what say you?

Unlike at first, the proper mechanic at the plate is not to signal. This provides the same information to both offense and defense. Most coaches understand what that means. I will not explain what it means at the time of the occurence, but I will do so gladly later if the coach remains clueless.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:

quote:

Originally posted by pilsner:
At the plate...

a.) No Tag
and
b.) No Touch
ergo
c.) No Call

Well let me take it a step further. Let's say no tag, not touch, no call, the batter/runner heads towards the dugout, the defensive teams coach asks, well blue was he safe our out you didn't make a call, what do I do? Stand there and say nothing? I mean if I say, he missed the plate and the defensive team didn't see it, then I've basically given them and advantage. If I do nothing, then the defensive team, who may not have noticed the runner had missed home, now knows the runner missed home. My assumption was signal safe on the no tag and either wait for the d player to apply the tag or for the runner to return and tag the base. S. Taylor, what say you?

Unlike at first, the proper mechanic at the plate is not to signal. This provides the same information to both offense and defense. Most coaches understand what that means. I will not explain what it means at the time of the occurence, but I will do so gladly later if the coach remains clueless.

thanks but with all due respect, you didn't answer my question, if I make no call and the d coach immedialty asks, what's the call, do I stand there or do I say he didn't touch the plate. I can understand not making a call to some extent, but if neither team is aware the runner didn't touch the plate a call would have to be made. I sure don't want to be the one to have a guy called out on appeal play that was allowed because the umpire advised the defensive team that the runner didn't touch the base. The batting team is going to go nuts because they're going to say "they didn't see the guy miss the plate, you told him he missed it then they applealed after you informed them. Thanks for the clarification and I hope we can get some others to weigh in on it.

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
thanks but with all due respect, you didn't answer my question, if I make no call and the d coach immedialty asks, what's the call, do I stand there or do I say he didn't touch the plate.

I have yet to have game where if a coach or player made a big deal of the no call, the other team failed to do what they needed to do. I have had games where no mention of a no call was made by anyone and the game continued.

As trained at proschool, I keep my position and not respond to a coach. I will do nothing to provide information to either the offense or defense.

If this turns into a third world situation I will begin to take my position for the next batter and if necessary, remove personnel from the playing area.

quote:

I can understand not making a call to some extent, but if neither team is aware the runner didn't touch the plate a call would have to be made.

Why? I have had and I have seen, at the major league level, the no-call ignored by both teams and the game continue

quote:

I sure don't want to be the one to have a guy called out on appeal play that was allowed because the umpire advised the defensive team that the runner didn't touch the base.

Nobody does, that's why we say nothing.

If the D coach sees that I didn't make a call and questions it out loud I'll just say nothing. He can appeal if he wishes.

The fact that I gave no out or safe signal is the tip off to both catcher and runner (and everyone else) that there was no tag and no touch. What they do with that info is up to them.

I sgree that no tag/no touch equals no call. Ignore the question by the coach and let this continue. Once the runner enters the dugout he is done as far as returning is concerned. On a force at home with a missed touch, signal safe.

No signal. Safe is reserved for the end of a play at a base. Except dropped fly balls or line drives that is..

There is no signal made. Not to say the over zealous might want to communicate to all that a tag "say up the line a bit" and the runner having not scored yet was missed, it isn't necessary as the runner isn't safe yet. Perhaps a verbal, "nope" or "missed him" to inform the players directly involved but no safe signal.

1. when the play isn't done yet, ex., missed tag and missed plate, F2 trying to tag the scrambling back runner, we ain't done yet, you don't get a signal til it's over.

2. Missed tag and runner continues on to the dugout, there's nothing to signal he scored (he wasn't tagged and he passed the plate), there's no signal given for a runner scoring unless it's a time play.

A good example, is R1 and GB to F4 who scoops it and attempts to tag the passing R2. He tags R2 you get an out signal, F4 misses the tag you get nothing cause the play isn't over.

thank you gents for the education, I appreciate your help.+

So, if it's a force at home and the runner misses home, I give the safe sign, then if there's an appeal the out can be called on the appeal?

Let me ask you this, force at home, the throw is up the line and the catcher attempts to tag the runner prior to the runner reaching home, if he misses the tag and the runner misses home, what call do I make at that time. Safe on the missed tag, then either wait for an appeal or no call?

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
I sgree that no tag/no touch equals no call. Ignore the question by the coach and let this continue. Once the runner enters the dugout he is done as far as returning is concerned. On a force at home with a missed touch, signal safe.

I know the odds of this happening are very small, but it seems very strange to me, if the catcher misses the tag and the runner misses home, and neither team is aware of it that I would give no signal at all. Let's say this happens and the coach of one of the teams does say, "what's the call blue?" are you telling me I just stand there and say NOTHING, and leave it to the coaches to figure out what's going on? Do I just refuse to answer until one of them realizes, "Hey he didn't make the call because the runner missed home"? My issue is, what if they brain **** and for some reason they DON'T realize what the heck is going on? At what point do I say "there was no call because the runner didn't touch home"?

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
At what point do I say "there was no call because the runner didn't touch home"?

After the runner loses the right to touch or the defense loses their right to appeal.

Until then, the play is not over.

Tell me, when there is a play at second base and the runner, who was initially safe, overslides and is off the bag, do you point that out to the defense? "Hey, look..he's off the baq."

Or, do you point out where the ball went on a passed ball the catcher can't locate?

Why are you so eager to help out in this case?

An umpire's primary job is to see that neither the defense nor the offense receives an advantage not intended by rule.

There is no call because there has not been a play made yet. If the coaches believe the player missed the plate then tell the catcher to tag the runner or if a force tag the plate. There is no reason to address the umpire in this situation. Its not his job to inform you one way or the other in this case. There is no out (yet) and there is no run (yet).

If the coaches and players have a clue they will know when their is no signal given. Its not the umpires job to make sure the players and coaches know the game. If an umpire signals safe then it needs to stand (period). Regardless if he touched the plate or not. Do not signal anything and its a no brainer. No out (yet) no run (yet).

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
There is no call because there has not been a play made yet. If the coaches believe the player missed the plate then tell the catcher to tag the runner or if a force tag the plate. There is no reason to address the umpire in this situation. Its not his job to inform you one way or the other in this case. There is no out (yet) and there is no run (yet).

If the coaches and players have a clue they will know when their is no signal given. Its not the umpires job to make sure the players and coaches know the game. If an umpire signals safe then it needs to stand (period). Regardless if he touched the plate or not. Do not signal anything and its a no brainer. No out (yet) no run (yet).

Perfect coach, except by definition there has been a play....it's just not over yet.

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
Let's say this happens and the coach of one of the teams does say, "what's the call blue?" are you telling me I just stand there and say NOTHING,

At what point do I say "there was no call because the runner didn't touch home"?

-------
1. stand there and say NOTHING, nah, I'd say "runner scored coach". That's what the runner did, he touched or passed HP. Ex: 3 run dinger, PU does not signal safe everytime a runner crosses the
plate, wouldn't for a single runner either.

At what point do I say?
In your protest response, or right after the
successful appeal is made.

If that is gonna take too long and coach insists on talking about it, give him time, with your partner present, explain, coach the runner "crossed" the plate, no tag, beat the force, whichever, he scored, now lets play.
At no time would ya say "coach ya knuckle head, he didn't touch the plate and if ya be quiet, I'll still let you protest it"

Cause then; you'd be answering the legit protest by the O we he say's, "my guy crossed the plate, there was no appeal made, you can't tell em too".

Don't sweat this, it'll happen and you'll have an opportunity to really have to give the safe signal when both runner and tagger know they've missed.
It's a neat play really, I had em both diving a few times. It's one of those rare instances where everybody (that's seeing it) know's what's happened, everybodies truly unbiased for just a nan o sec, then the dive/s, then we're back to reality.

In the OP, call nothing, signal nothing. However, the OP was modified to be a force. If it is a force and the plate is missed then you signal safe just like any other base. If there is a tag attempt up the line then show a safe on the tag and again when he crosses. He is still subject to an appeal and to be called out.

Once it becomes a tag play, no signal is given. Simply wait to see what else happens. And, PU should not signal "safe" when the runner crosses the plate. Only when it is a tag attempt at the plate and he touches it or it is a force play and he touches/passes it.

Otherwise, see if he does and do nothing else.

There was an attempted tag, the catcher missed the tag, the runner corssed the plate but did not touch it. I gave a safe signal on the missed tag, the defensive coach yelled, he missed the home (which I had seen), the catcher ran over to the runner and tagged him, at that point I called the runner out. Myabe I misunderstood your comment when you say "touches/passes" are you assuming for the sake of this argument that he touched the plate or are you saying if there is an attempted tag, that tag is missed, and the runner passes home, but does not touch the base, should there be a no call?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Umpire:
Once it becomes a tag play, no signal is given. Simply wait to see what else happens. And, PU should not signal "safe" when the runner crosses the plate. Only when it is a tag attempt at the plate and he touches/passes it or it is a force play and he touches/passes it.

Otherwise, see if he does and do nothing else.

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
There was an attempted tag, the catcher missed the tag, the runner corssed the plate but did not touch it. I gave a safe signal on the missed tag, the defensive coach yelled, he missed the home (which I had seen), the catcher ran over to the runner and tagged him, at that point I called the runner out. Myabe I misunderstood your comment when you say "touches/passes" are you assuming for the sake of this argument that he touched the plate or are you saying if there is an attempted tag, that tag is missed, and the runner passes home, but does not touch the base, should there be a no call?

It's not a force play. If the runner touched the plate before he was tagged, he would have been called safe. If he was tagged before touching the plate, he would have been called out. "No call" says it all: the runner has neither touched the plate nor been tagged.

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
you saying if there is an attempted tag, that tag is missed, and the runner passes home, but does not touch the base, should there be a no call?

Exactly.

OK, I've got two questions about all this.

1) If the umpire signals safe, but runner did not touch home, can the defense still tag him out? Would I, as a coach not have reason to complain that the umpire signaled safe, so the assumption was that the runner was safe, therefore made no attempt to go back and tag home? Hope that makes sense.

2) I would assume that similar to an appeal play on a tag up, once the next pitch is made without appeal, the play would stand and no appeal can be made. Based on that assumption, no tag, no touch of home plate, no appeal before next pitch - does the run score? If the runner never touched home, does it still count, or does just crossing the plate area constitute scoring? Probably similar to a runner missing a base, but no appeal - no out. Just never thought about it in terms of this happening at home and counting the run.

1. Yes, the defense can still tag him out. In fact, until the runner shows no attempt of returning to HP immediately after passing it, the defense has to tag him instead of being able to just touch HP.

On a tag play, yes, you would have a valid complaint b/c of what the mechanics are suppose to be. It isn't going to change anything, but you have a valid complaint. It's not protestable.

On a force play, no, you would not have a valid complaint. The umpire has to signal if the runner is safe or not due to the dynamics of the rest of the potential plays based on the outcome of that.

2. Run scores until appealed. Once the runner passes HP, he is considered to have touched it until properly appealed.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Umpire:
2. Run scores until appealed. Once the runner passes HP, he is considered to have touched it until properly appealed.

Okay, this is where I have an issue with this whole "no tag no call" issue. If what you said above is true, why would the umpire not make a safe call until properly appealed? You said once the runner passes home he is considered to have "touched it", then why would the umpire not give any signal??? A tag was attempted, so we have a play on the runner, the tag was missed and the runner passed the plate, which according to what you just said means "he is considered to have touched it". Why would I as an umpire not make a call on a play at the plate under those circumstances?

I can understand if there was no play made on the runner and he passed, yet missed home, but if there's a play made on him right when he reaches home and the tag is missed, yet he crossed home without touching it, but IS considered to have touched it (according to what you said), why would an umpire not signal safe until a proper appeal is made. Isn't the runner safe unitl a proper appeal is made of if a proper appeal is NEVER made?

For one, don't take it as I agree with the mechanic. I would prefer to say "No tag" while signaling safe but that could be misleading.

Second, this is the mechanic taught at the umpire schools, clinics, and how the pro level umpires do it. So, until they change, this is how the professional umpires at the amateur level should do it. For consistency and cause less confusion.

By not signaling anything, it tells the offense and defense that the play isn't over. If the runner continues to the dugout and the defense doesn't appeal, score the run. If the defense does appeal, take the run off. If the runner gets back before being tagged, score the run.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
There is no call because there has not been a play made yet. If the coaches believe the player missed the plate then tell the catcher to tag the runner or if a force tag the plate. There is no reason to address the umpire in this situation. Its not his job to inform you one way or the other in this case. There is no out (yet) and there is no run (yet).

If the coaches and players have a clue they will know when their is no signal given. Its not the umpires job to make sure the players and coaches know the game. If an umpire signals safe then it needs to stand (period). Regardless if he touched the plate or not. Do not signal anything and its a no brainer. No out (yet) no run (yet).

But there is a run scored. There may be a minute or two before the defense loses the right to appeal.
At some point, even in the Majors, the scoreboard will reflect the run scored even if he never touched home and the appeal possibility remains (otherwise, there is a really obvious clue). If a runner misses second, the umpire can call him safe at home and the run can still be removed on appeal.

If a runner touches home while the ball is in the outfield, I would not expect a "safe" call from the umpire. So if a runner crosses home and misses the tag while the ball is in the outfield, the lack of a "safe" call offers no clue to the defense.

I would think a missed tag near the plate would warrant a "safe" call even if the runner misses the touch. Otherwise the umpire is giving away information that he does not give away for non-close calls. The defense would still know they need to watch for the touch and appeal if necessary.

I'm not an umpire and I'm sure my opinion will not reverse umpire conventions. Who would think umpires need to be master thespians?