Roster Sizes and the new rules

Oregon State had 52 or 53 when I was at one of their practices a couple weeks ago.

John,
Interesting. I have heard many say Polk had several reasons for the letter, one being his own agenda. Large fall rosters is a part of this, large rosters causes a high transfer rate.

Large rosters at SEC schools have been commonplace. Used to be that way at the ACC schools, someone told me they (conference) frowned upon large rosters so changes have taken place.

End of fall semester is the last time anyone can transfer without sitting. IMO, going to be a lot of unhappy campers in the next few weeks.

quote:

something else going on here? Or, am I just missing something?

You can still over recruit even after the new rules kick in in 08. There will be a larger amount of cuts and RS.
Your only defence is knowledge. Be aware this goes on in a lot of colleges. Some of the best colleges want choice and unfortunately some very good ball players will suffer. Personally I think if a coach cuts a player he should be able to transfer without sitting.

My sources told me that Coach Polk was cutting his roster from 50 to 35 because he was anticipating the new rules coming into play so the 15 players could find a new home so they would not be forced to sit out a year due to the new transfer rule.

Let's hope that these 15 players can find a new home come December. I would imagine that, given what's going on all across the country, they've got lots of competition. I bet the coaches at D2's, D3's, NAIA's and JUCO's are licking their chops.

quote:

Originally posted by Infield08:
Let's hope that these 15 players can find a new home come December. I would imagine that, given what's going on all across the country, they've got lots of competition. I bet the coaches at D2's, D3's, NAIA's and JUCO's are licking their chops.

............which leads me to the next question

Whether it is T-ball or MLB, somebody has to bat first, somebody has to bat last, and several are role/bench players, or subs.

Do you think D1 college coaches recruit kids(they are all good players) knowing all along that they will be reserves to balance their rosters ?

In other words, a very fine player may opt for Bigtime University, knowing there is an all-american currently at his position and a returning player next in line. He is in awe that Bigtime U coach has recruited him, and has no idea he may be destined originally as either a bench player or a possible Fall cut.

This player may be better served baseball-wise at a different program.

Should players in the recruiting process be more direct with questions to the coach such as:

1. Why specifically are you recruiting me ?

2. Based on my abilities, what contributions to the team do you have planned for me my first season ?

It seems to me the "stockpilers" used the Fall Cattle Call not in fear of losing players to the Draft, but to have the best bench "books and the limelight" can buy, which is a disservice to great kids with baseball talent that could be utilized elsewhere.

I think Infield08's point is a good one. People spend all this time finding a school that they feel is a good fit. They get cut so they can find another school' If all or many schools are doing the same that means a large pool of very good ball players looking for a new school which now have mandated reduced rosters and no place to put them. This is a harsh reality of the new rules. Before a bench player at least had an opportunity to develope his game. This is perhaps the cruelest part of the new rules. There could be hundreds of deserving athletes who do not get to realize their dream to play D1.
The other schools will definitely benefit from this rule change and they will possibly become even more competetive.
OS8 you can ask all the questions you want and get all the answers you want to hear and still screw up. A coach will say what you want to hear and frankly except for a handful of players is not sure where you fit in. The only talk that counts is $$$$. That is why I am all about BB money. It expresses the love in a quanitative way.

how can fall "cattle calls" continue when "recruited" NLI players (27),

AND "recruited walk-ons"(up to 8),

will be counters when they arrive on campus in the fall??

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
OS8 you can ask all the questions you want and get all the answers you want to hear and still screw up. A coach will say what you want to hear and frankly except for a handful of players is not sure where you fit in. The only talk that counts is $$$$. That is why I am all about BB money. It expresses the love in a quanitative way.

BBH, I pose questions to get answers for those in the process. To respond:

Relatively speaking, the $$$$ if the new rules stand, will be effectively equal for the majority of the countable roster.

Coachspeak will have to be more "accurate" with the pending rules change. It appears the kids being recruited should benefit more because of the limitations.

By the way, a very large southeast program who were involved in our recruiting experience a season ago answered one of my questions like this:

Coach, I see you just made offers to 2 more outfielders. Why are you still calling us ?

Answer: Those are just local kids we get for cheap to fill the roster, they won't play much, but it keeps the community on our side.

What a disservice to those 2 kids.

quote:

by OS8: Bee, I used the term "used" in the past tense.

thanks I do understand you, but others are using it in "future tense"

ie:"You can still over recruit even after the new rules kick in in 08. There will be a larger amount of cuts and RS."

hey what gives ? a time warp?

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
hey what gives ? a time warp?

my error Bee

"open tryouts" with a transfer rule will maybe help sort out better the allocation of players

I still don't like the transfer rule being one-sided, thats why I feel recruits need to be more direct regarding their baseball fit than in the past.

One would think that with 27 counters tied to possible baseball monies, they are there to contribute and shouldn't warrant a transfer because of PT, or lack thereof.

quote:

Answer: Those are just local kids we get for cheap to fill the roster, they won't play much, but it keeps the community on our side.

Yes I wonder what he told them ?

The 25%$$$ amounts are minimums to those who get BB money if in fact any do get BB money. Nothing even close to equal. Many will stil get $0. The pitchers will still get the lions share and with the minimum rule more may get no money than before.
The old rules were tough enough on BB players and there were lots of broken dreams and hopes before. You factor in personality issues and all the other stuff, I feel sorry for these guys. To me the closest thing to a promise the coach can make and hold true for at least 1 year is a BB scholarship. After that it is up to the players. The shear number of transfers over the years and the fact they changed the rules about transferring speaks to the massive turnover in BB players. This is a huge upheaval to young BB players and I hope the schools address this issue for the sake of parents and their kids.

surprisingly, based on what I've heard in the past and TPM has already eluded to about SEC programs, UGA is already making changes based on the new rules and where in years past they'd have 50+ for fall workouts, this year they only had 42 and this should also improve for next year as UGA is loaded with juniors and seniors this year (17).

quote:

Do you think D1 college coaches recruit kids(they are all good players) knowing all along that they will be reserves to balance their rosters ?

I think that the answer to that question has to be yes, but I would phrase it a bit differently than "balance their rosters." How many times do we hear during a professional athletic contest (of any kind) when a backup comes in: "He could be a starter if he played somewhere else...." Last weekend, I watched one professional football team play without 5 of their 22 regular starters, and they won easily...one of the players who started when he normally wouldn't have started said that there were 53 guys on the team, and every one of them has to be ready to play at a high level at any time.

I think that any good college coach is going to recruit guys who he thinks can play if he needs them to, even if he doesn't think they will get regular time. Here's my take on why. A professional baseball team carries 25 active players. Yet, if one gets hurt, they can quickly go into their system and put in another player, or they can sign a free agent, and have another player in that slot the next day. In college, those 10 guys beyond the 25 (or more realistically the 8 beyond the 27 counters for next year) IS the college coaches system and pool of free agents for that year. If a couple of guys get hurt, he can't go to the local juco and grab a player or two, he has to go with the 35 he has, at least for that year.

Does that mean that there are players on the bench of some schools that might be starting for other schools? Of course it does. However, a coach who is thinking is going to have players on his bench that he knows he can put in at a moment's notice and they will play to a caliber necessary for the team to continue to compete. Obviously, there is something that makes the starter better, otherwise he wouldn't be the starter. In many cases, the starter is the one that more consistently performs at a high level. It is not that the bench player doesn't perform at a high level, after all, as was said in the quote, they are all good players, it just may be consistency of performance. However, the coach has to know that he can put one of those guys in a conference game if he has to.

In the end, our boys have to look at the situation and decide what role they want to play on their team. We as parents have to have our eyes open during the recruiting process and make decisions accordingly.

other roster sizes for SEC teams:

Tennessee 31
S. Carolina 34
Florida 36
Vanderbilt 36
Auburn 37
Kentucky 37
Alabama 39
LSU 39
Arkansas 41
Georgia 42
Ole Miss 42
Miss St 44

quote:

Originally posted by Infield08:
Let's hope that these 15 players can find a new home come December. I would imagine that, given what's going on all across the country, they've got lots of competition. I bet the coaches at D2's, D3's, NAIA's and JUCO's are licking their chops.

What was he doing with so many on the fall roster when he KNEW the rules were changing? Why didn't he let them know BEFORE they set foot on campus?

JohnLex good post.

I agree that coaches recruit knowing who most likey is going to start and who is going to sit. It's called economics. That's why they don't like the new rules. There are 100% players, 75% players, 50% players, 35% players, 15% players and 5% players on every roster. If your 10% player does better than expected, BINGO and if your 100% player has not come through you've found a balance in your $$ numbers. Then you go to work with what you have chosen, if you have done a good job at it, you will know how to best use your players. Some coaches have never done that and probably never will, they just bring in lots of kids in the fall and whoever does well he picks out 35 or so for the roster. If that doesn't work, well we'll just restock again next fall. Don't care how experienced the coach is, this is what is done in some programs.

quote:

Don't care how experienced the coach is, this is what is done in some programs.

I agree. The new rules did nothing to help against over recruiting and probably created a big potential hardship for those players who are not seen as starters. I am sure these rules will have to be adjusted. They are not well thought out.

How many of the kids (and parents) at the low end of the $$ would rather be at Big State U for little or no money just to say they are at Big State U? In reality their skills/abilities really have them a lower level school/program. They also would have a better opportunity to play & develop at a lower level DI, or DII or even a good JUCO.

I don't blame the coaches. Its up to the parents and kids to educate themselves about the programs and schools they are interested in and/or have approached them. Many people get pumped up about Big Sate U, and their egos take over. Coaches that have had this approach to recruting, didn't just come up with up recently. They usually have a track record for this approach. Good examples of these have been discussed on here at many times.

The market will determine how this will settle out. The border line kids at DI will have to opt for smaller Di's, JUCO's or DII's. There will be many kids whose dreams of playing college baseball will be cut shorter than before, but this is life. As with all things, the best will continue to play, get the majority of the scholly $$, etc...

Good points.

One can usually tell by the amount of their scholarship how they are perceived. It's going to get a bit more confusing with 27 getting 25% minimum.
IMO, coaches don't use their staff to their potential. I have seen big margin games where the winning team still has in their starters. Some schools do this all of the time. How do you develop future players with no playing time? I have also seen pitchers start weekend games and then throw in a weekday gameto a larger team for the W and bragging rights. One school in particular, they did that frequently with thier ace, who now will miss a year due to TJS. Tell me what that coach was thinking?

BigDawg I think you have things a little off based on your post. Kids are drafted every year from all levels of schools. There are great BB guys in small schools and not all want the big name schools. Look at the drafted college kids. From all types of schools. Lots of guys at the big name schools do not get drafted. A ton of guys go JC to be able to get drafted.

TPM I don't think many schools will give anywhere near 27 BB scholarships. More like 5-12 ( a guess) with some getting 60% and a few getting 25%. A lot more getting $ 0. Pitchers will get the largest amount still and the guys they really want will get a lot more than 25%.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
BigDawg I think you have things a little off based on your post. Kids are drafted every year from all levels of schools. There are great BB guys in small schools and not all want the big name schools. Look at the drafted college kids. From all types of schools. Lots of guys at the big name schools do not get drafted. A ton of guys go JC to be able to get drafted.

The best talent doesn't always choose the huge name programs as sometimes they don't meet enough of the FIT criteria.

It is all about the player, not the program. I know of several top level type players who have turned down the limelight. Wasn't because they weren't good enough.

I found here that many BB players go to schools that have an affiliation with the teams they play for.
That was why we did our own marketing . We opened up the potential schools and we had interest from top programs. We would have had to travel to places where they could see my son. Had to spend a lot of money and time we didn't have.
I would rather play against them than with them. Maybe get no playing time and if they are already a top program maybe no credit for your effort.

Bobble & OldSlugger-

You missed my point. It's not that good/great talent chooses Big State U. It's the other way around. There are many kids (and parents) that are just fine with being one of the 40-50 guys with a uniform. We know a lot of kids happy with books or less just to say they are "playing" Div I baseball. They usually last 1-2 semesters before the work is too much to chase foul bouls. Has some of these guys gone to a smaller program or DII or a JUCO, they would at least have an opportunity to play and develop probably at more than just books.

I think the new roster limits and scholly min's will shake some of this out. I also believe it will just push the lower talent around or out of baseball. The free market of supply and demand will determine where it all goes.

BTW, I'm not knocking small programs or Juco. Mine went the Juco route.

quote:

In reality their skills/abilities really have them a lower level school/program.

This line is why I took the post as saying other than top programs got lower talent players.

I don't beleive that many top talented kids out of HS choose smaller programs because that is what they prefer. I do beleive that many players come into their own while in college and then get drafted.

There are lots of players who do not start out as they end up, that goes for top prospects lsoing their edge and non prospects prospering.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:

quote:

In reality their skills/abilities really have them a lower level school/program.

This line is why I took the post as saying other than top programs got lower talent players.

**** I read it the same way BHD ****

por ejemplo.....


Many of the "big name" programs haven't won squat in a long time for whatever reasons, mainly because baseball is a unique game. There is really not much David vs. Goliath going on in college baseball.

I would venture to say that based on what I have read here, heard from others, and common sense. A college baseball player goes to a certain college which provides a venue to win a conference ring, maybe GET LUCKY and get to OMAHA, and impress the heck out of anyone in pro baseball to take a shot at them reaching the dream.

Go look at who gets drafted out of college, and from where. The distribution of schools is vast.

Not every player at LSU, Florida, or Arizona State gets drafted, AND THAT INCLUDES THEIR STARTERS.

The main reason to go to school is to get an education, everything other than that is icing on the cake.
Whoever said that every player in top programs gets drafted? If someone goes to a top program thinking this will get them drafted, that is a misconception. Because a player has success in college does not translate into becoming a pro.

Most players are ranked very few get the opportunities you mention.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
The main reason to go to school is to get an education, everything other than that is icing on the cake.
Whoever said that every player in top programs gets drafted? If someone goes to a top program thinking this will get them drafted, that is a misconception.

I suppose I totally misunderstood that the majority of kids chose their college for baseball reasons, and those reasons are:

1. to keep playing because they love baseball
2. to play in a program they feel they fit in
3. to play for a conference ring
4. to play for their school, and maybe a CWS
5. to play for the possibility of getting to the next level(pro)

What am I missing here TPM ?

Many of these guys are getting a portion of their education while using the college baseball stage for all the reasons mentioned.

Are you telling me that right next door is D1 #289 where you can get a great education but choose to go 800 miles instead. For what??? BASEBALL

Are there some contradictions here, or did I miss every point made ?

I would add that they go where they are wanted.

Yes OS to get an education adn all of the above. R
remember they are student athletes not athlete students. I think that is why the NCAA imposed new rules for baseball.

Your posts are confusing, you list reasons why a ranked player doesn't choose a school but you give reasons above why a player chooses to play after HS.

I can't keep up with ya.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

Your posts are confusing, you list reasons why a ranked player doesn't choose a school but you give reasons above why a player chooses to play after HS.

I can't keep up with ya.

One of my many flaws, I suppose

Ya, I understand, we can't all be perfect.

This topic really interests me. I've been trying to help my son by reading through all of the tips and recruiting information on the website. (This website is a really great resource!) but ultimately I'm learning a little each day and uncertain of my navigation.

It seems to me that the best chances to play immediately would be to go to a JUCO and then transfer to a D1 after two years. But I would very much like my son to go to a good D1 but I know he'd rather play.

Baseball America had a magazine this summer devoted to the top baseball programs at each level over the last ten years. I plan to try to track that one down.

quote:

...But I would very much like my son to go to a good D1 but I know he'd rather play....

Is there a reason why you want your son to go to a DI?

That premise is flawed. He could go to a top JUCO and be behind a stud for two years and not play at all. He could go to a Top D-1 program and be the best player at his posistion and play right away. Just because you go to a lower level of baseball does not mean that your going to be the best option on that particular team. And just because you go to a top D-1 program does not mean you wont be the best 3b or catcher etc on that roster when you come in. Each situation is different. Whats the best fit for your son? School wise program wise etc etc. Regardless of where you go your going to have to earn your playing time. Regardless of where you go there are going to be other kids that can play and want to play. Everyone wants to play. Everyone can not play. If you dont play what are you going to do? Work harder and find a way to contribute anyway you can? Or sulk and try to transfer to another situation where you will still have to earn a spot and be in the same dogfight you were before. Pick a school that you really want to attend. Pick a program that you feel good about. If your a catcher dont go to a school with 5 other catchers unless you are determined to beat all of them out and believe you can. And if you dont you still want to go to school there anyway. There are no givens other than no matter where you go you WILL have to compete. And I have never talked to one kid going to play college baseball that did not want to play. Someone is going to sit the bench. Someone is going to play.

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There are no givens other than no matter where you go you WILL have to compete. And I have never talked to one kid going to play college baseball that did not want to play. Someone is going to sit the bench. Someone is going to play.

The topic is a good one because most, if not all of these kids never had the issue of playing time to deal with prior to college, which makes it all very exciting in my opinion.

I assume you get your numbers from the college websites. The S.C. roster is from last spring. They currently have 40+ in fall practice.

quote:

Originally posted by j2h6:
other roster sizes for SEC teams:

Tennessee 31
S. Carolina 34
Florida 36
Vanderbilt 36
Auburn 37
Kentucky 37
Alabama 39
LSU 39
Arkansas 41
Georgia 42
Ole Miss 42
Miss St 44