I believe the normal roster for ms.state has been 43 to 44 players.One thing about coach polk is he allows true walk ons to tryout in the fall.I am not sure TPM what agenda you might be refering to? Coach Polk is one of the few D-1 coaches that has voiced his opinion concerning the ncaa towards student athletes.Long before this last letter.Hint,look before you open message board!We need more coaches like this man imo.One important point on ms.state being mentioned in the cattle call arena,they do not cut recruited players.
Of course he has an agenda but it is a good one. His agenda is good for the schools and the coaches. Some players will be cut of RS. When you tryout for BB teams that is a reality.
umm, Polk's a great guy, but ....quote:by bdt: One thing about coach polk is he allows true walk ons to tryout in the fall.
all 300 DI programs must hold open tryouts by ncaa rule
A normal roster of 43-44 is not necessary. That translates into unnecessary RS and bench sitting. It's not uncommon, that is WHY they imposed a 35 man roster limit.
Bee is correct, all D1 schools allow walk ons to try out as it is mandatory.
He is not the only one who has voiced his concerns, I know of one coach (D1) who has and who usually never has more than 32-35 on the roster. One can run a team sucessfully without stockpiling in the fall. No one said that they cut recruited players, but can you tell me about the 15 that have to be cut from their fall squad, or were they just walk ons needed to make up a fall team?
Hint back at ya, look before you open message board.
Bee is correct, all D1 schools allow walk ons to try out as it is mandatory.
He is not the only one who has voiced his concerns, I know of one coach (D1) who has and who usually never has more than 32-35 on the roster. One can run a team sucessfully without stockpiling in the fall. No one said that they cut recruited players, but can you tell me about the 15 that have to be cut from their fall squad, or were they just walk ons needed to make up a fall team?
Hint back at ya, look before you open message board.
Ron Polk has been fighting the NCAA for as long as I have known him and that is one heck of a lot of years---finally he seems to be getting some backing in the fight
He is one of my favorite men in the coaching business--when you deal with him you know exactly where you stand
He is one of my favorite men in the coaching business--when you deal with him you know exactly where you stand
If you check most D1 teams season results, you will see the same thing. 8-10 guys get the lions share of the at bats, and the rest get some marginal PT.
Example:
ACC school:10/1800 and 8/200(18 posplayers)
SEC school: 8/1550 and 9/500(17 posplayers)
MAC school: 9/1800 and 9/300(18 posplayers)
Pac10 school: 9/1900 and 13/400(22 posplayers)
It seems every "playing" roster has very similar results of the distribution of at bats. Assume the usage of 13-15 pitchers along the way, and you get an idea that they all work with a "playing roster" in the low to mid 30's range.
Naturally, the 25 man travel squad has lots to do with the at bat opportunities, but the point is, when you get past 35, it is a coaching luxury to the detriment of the student-athlete, who may be better off elsewhere.
I like the roster limitation rules, I don't mind the grant minimums, and I oppose the transfer rule, and they should at least extend it one more full season to allow for a fair transition.
Example:
ACC school:10/1800 and 8/200(18 posplayers)
SEC school: 8/1550 and 9/500(17 posplayers)
MAC school: 9/1800 and 9/300(18 posplayers)
Pac10 school: 9/1900 and 13/400(22 posplayers)
It seems every "playing" roster has very similar results of the distribution of at bats. Assume the usage of 13-15 pitchers along the way, and you get an idea that they all work with a "playing roster" in the low to mid 30's range.
Naturally, the 25 man travel squad has lots to do with the at bat opportunities, but the point is, when you get past 35, it is a coaching luxury to the detriment of the student-athlete, who may be better off elsewhere.
I like the roster limitation rules, I don't mind the grant minimums, and I oppose the transfer rule, and they should at least extend it one more full season to allow for a fair transition.
Sobering, ain't it, OS8?
quote:Originally posted by FormerObserver:
Sobering, ain't it, OS8?
Sure is...........it looks like a Big12 school has near 51 kids in Fall workouts. They brought in 7 freshman, 3 D1 transfers, and 8 JUCO transfers to an already oversized roster.
Correct me if I am wrong, but those 11 transfers in tells me this is classic stockpiling, sort of reveals what the coach thinks of many of his existing players(not much), and maybe his poor judge of abilities.
Rules or no rules, kids will, or already have been sent packing. Even if you stayed as player # 47 to just dress for home games, that to me isn't playing baseball, its watching it.
I think it was BEE who mentioned one program, but there are many out there who are successful running it as a lean and mean machine with rosters in the low 30's.
Rosters with 14-15 pitchers, 3-4 catchers, and 14 positionals seem to be the optimum "working roster"
What concerns me about the rule change is that some marginal players at the time of signing don't get signed because a coach can't afford to wait for these guys to develope. I have already heard of kids not getting signed because the coach siad he can't develope them anymore. No room on roster and no money due to minimum scholarship rule.
The guys who are ready to go will have no problem as before but the late bloomers will.
I wonder how many guys who sat for a year or 2 became part of the starters that make those stats ? BB is a developmental game and these rules may have taken some of that away at college.
The guys who are ready to go will have no problem as before but the late bloomers will.
I wonder how many guys who sat for a year or 2 became part of the starters that make those stats ? BB is a developmental game and these rules may have taken some of that away at college.
I am really sad reading about the number of players at that Big 12 school. There are going to be a number of disappointed and devastated players in the coming months who could have made a significant impact at a lesser program. It's unlikely that all of them will be able to find a place to play in January. The competition for spots at D2's and JUCO's is becoming stiffer by the minute, it would seem.
0S8, I think the size of your optimum working roster is right on.
0S8, I think the size of your optimum working roster is right on.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I wonder how many guys who sat for a year or 2 became part of the starters that make those stats ? BB is a developmental game and these rules may have taken some of that away at college.
BHD:
I did lots of roster combing back in 2005 and 2006. Other than pitchers and some catchers, not many from what I recall.
From a positional player(hitter) standpoint, it almost appears that these kids are recruited as either "impact freshman", "waiting in the wings", or "utility".
I am sure there were, and always will be those kids from all 3 categories who change places due to development, or lack thereof.
A good way to track this is to go to any school baseball website of choice, go back to prior season results and look at the 2nd tier of players who got minimal at bats. See what they did in subsequent years.
You may want to go back and count OS8. I was curious and don't see any rosters in the Big 12 approaching this number (60). I believe the biggest one I saw was 44 and that may have been last years roster. Most schools I have looked at this year are at 35 or below. I may have missed one but if you are mistaken, please edit your post to indicate that.
BHD, I took an ACC and went to the freshman and sophs who got minimal at bats in 2005. In the 2007 results, all 3 got minimal at bats.
excellent job, many could gain alot of insite used to narrow choices, or at very least know what to expect going inquote:by OS8: I did lots of roster combing back in 2005 and 2006 ... From a positional player(hitter) standpoint, it almost appears that these kids are recruited as either "impact freshman", "waiting in the wings", or "utility".
There is no doubht that things have been tough for young BB players who go through the recruiting process with all its ups and downd. They spent years and a small fortune to get to college and show up for weigh in and there are 40-60 guys who all look like studs there as well. Several will be cut and often not until after fall. Some get cut after spring at the exit meeting. It could have happened to my son and it did happen to some of his friends. It happened to his freshman year roommate after the soph season. One friend after new coaches came had 3 of his roommates cut. It can be heart breaking to a young man. Their dream is crushed and it is not always due to lack of talent.
I also see things from the other side and to me it is exciting to face these hardships. It is important to have the right mind set. We prepare them for BB by making sure they play top competition. We teach them to face failure and to accept the challenge. We teach them to get back up after getting knocked down.
Having said that these rules amke it tough to get back up. These rules are not in anyones best interest. Let them face the challenge and atleast allow them options if things don't go well. The transfer rule should be modified to allow players to move on if the coach cuts them.
I would rather see kids face the challenge but with the knowlege that over recruiting is a part of college ball. I am not sure how these rules were convieved but they are not in the best interest of either party.
I also see things from the other side and to me it is exciting to face these hardships. It is important to have the right mind set. We prepare them for BB by making sure they play top competition. We teach them to face failure and to accept the challenge. We teach them to get back up after getting knocked down.
Having said that these rules amke it tough to get back up. These rules are not in anyones best interest. Let them face the challenge and atleast allow them options if things don't go well. The transfer rule should be modified to allow players to move on if the coach cuts them.
I would rather see kids face the challenge but with the knowlege that over recruiting is a part of college ball. I am not sure how these rules were convieved but they are not in the best interest of either party.
I didn't see 60 either, and many still have teh 2007 roster up.
The most I have seen on a fall rosters is 50, a few still hovering around 40-42 but generally 35-37 (the larger programs in larger conferences).
The most I have seen on a fall rosters is 50, a few still hovering around 40-42 but generally 35-37 (the larger programs in larger conferences).
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
You may want to go back and count OS8. I was curious and don't see any rosters in the Big 12 approaching this number (60). I believe the biggest one I saw was 44 and that may have been last years roster. Most schools I have looked at this year are at 35 or below. I may have missed one but if you are mistaken, please edit your post to indicate that.
Edited CDAD......they didn't remove the seniors and drafted unders yet, but still around 50!! They advanced the priors years class, i.e juniors to seniors, but kept the grad seniors also. Still, thats one big haul of JUCO's, ain't it?
I did a quick check on some guys I know and the ones who lasted for 4 years had a large increase in at bats and starts.
One guy I know had 12 ABs one year and in his JR year had well over 100.
One guy I know had 12 ABs one year and in his JR year had well over 100.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I did a quick check on some guys I know and the ones who lasted for 4 years had a large increase in at bats and starts.
One guy I know had 12 ABs one year and in his JR year had well over 100.
The lions share usually exceeds 200.
In just a quick glance, OK States roster shows 39 current rostered upperclassmen players and the press release saying that they had the #14 ranked recruiting class says they have 18 newcomers also...57 players.
I for one, support the roster cap, and the minimum scholarship, but am opposed to the sit/transfer rule for a low funded sport. (gee, I almost felt like my opinion mattered )
I for one, support the roster cap, and the minimum scholarship, but am opposed to the sit/transfer rule for a low funded sport. (gee, I almost felt like my opinion mattered
)quote:From a positional player(hitter) standpoint, it almost appears that these kids are recruited as either "impact freshman", "waiting in the wings", or "utility".
Many times I suggest that the juco route is a good way into a D1 school.
The qoute above really sums up why very well.
After following the Big 12 conference for the past three years, I can tell you that there are usually less than six "impact" freshmen in the conference per year.
I have never tracked roster sizes. There are other factors that affect roster sizes.
There are players who want to go to a particular school and tryout for the team. They will be happy at that school if they don't make the team.
So, there are some kids that might be rostered in the fall that know they are taking a chance. There may even be a plan in place to transfer back to a juco depending on how things work out in the fall. (Especially pitchers)
I have also seen kids "waiting in the wings" and "utility" players be in the right place at the right time when an injury, ineligibility, or pending fatherhood affects a starter.
There are no guaranteed roster spots in college.
If you can hit better than the other 34, 39, 50, or 61, you will play.
quote:Originally posted by FormerObserver:quote:From a positional player(hitter) standpoint, it almost appears that these kids are recruited as either "impact freshman", "waiting in the wings", or "utility".
If you can hit better than the other 34, 39, 50, or 61, you will play.
Thats about it in a nutshell. Question is. Does the player want to roll the dice?
quote:There are no guaranteed roster spots in college.
That is true and even JCs have guys who don't play much. Winning a roster spot is part of the excitement. If you go to a big D1 you take your chances. That is why you have to set your goals so that you have a reasonable prospect of playing. If you are a pitcher throwing 90+ or a batter who can hit 300+ and hit a lot of HRs off great pitching you have to take a shot at a big time school. Always understand that you will be competing for a spot against top talent.
I am always concerned when people try to label a players talent level. Coaches do it but they are often wrong. I believe that player development is on going and some just kick into over drive later than others.
quote:Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:quote:Originally posted by FormerObserver:quote:From a positional player(hitter) standpoint, it almost appears that these kids are recruited as either "impact freshman", "waiting in the wings", or "utility".
If you can hit better than the other 34, 39, 50, or 61, you will play.
Thats about it in a nutshell. Question is. Does the player want to roll the dice?
Take that one step further, and ask if that book money scholarship makes those dice all too appealing to an impressionable young man?
Having a roster size without a minimum scholarship amount then just makes running off cut players that much easier on the head coach.
Thats why I said I like the 25% min rule, the roster limitation, but not the transfer.
POINT:
FINANCIAL INVESTMENT.
POINT:
FINANCIAL INVESTMENT.
I am not sure why a player would stay quiet. The 1st thing they are asked is if we draft you will you come. Once they draft them the team makes an offer usually at the players home and they negotiate the amount. If they can't come to terms the player goes to college or where ever he wants to go.
if you really believe this is how it works at all 300 D1 programs then i have a bridge for ..... you can quote me the rules lets stay in real world.quote:Originally posted by Bee>:umm, Polk's a great guy, but ....quote:by bdt: One thing about coach polk is he allows true walk ons to tryout in the fall.
all 300 DI programs must hold open tryouts by ncaa rule
Not sure why you disagree but D1s hold open tryouts.
The rules are complied with, look to any team website for the annual announcements.
As far as kids showing up, thats up to them.
I think a kid going to a college tryout tells me he still has a passion to play. Many get on the club teams to keep playing if and when they "get cut" from the open tryout. You have to admire them.
If around 2500 of about 130,000 graduating high school seniors each year land at a D1 program, that is a very small percentage(about 2%). Thats a tough nut to crack.
As far as kids showing up, thats up to them.
I think a kid going to a college tryout tells me he still has a passion to play. Many get on the club teams to keep playing if and when they "get cut" from the open tryout. You have to admire them.
If around 2500 of about 130,000 graduating high school seniors each year land at a D1 program, that is a very small percentage(about 2%). Thats a tough nut to crack.
quote:If around 2500 of about 130,000 graduating high school seniors each year land at a D1 program, that is a very small percentage(about 2%). Thats a tough nut to crack.
And, DII's, DIII's, Jucos, are excellent choices to keep playing college baseball.
sure, I prefer the real world and am always willing to learnquote:bdt says: you can quote me the rules lets stay in real world.
but, that's kind of a pickle ya got into ...
there are about 278 DI baseball programs & all ya have to do is name 1 that does not conduct "open tryouts" ...
but if ya have inside info & name one, you get 'em in hot water w/ncaa ..
if ya can't name one, well there goes the ol' credibility
FYI--Polk had 15 show up for open tryouts but he already had 14 recruited walkons. And by recruited walkons I mean kids he personally called every week for months telling them he wanted them on the team. All the walkons have been cut and 9 of the recruited will be cut soon.
living baseball, by recruited, I mean money on the table not recruited walkons.TPM what is the d1 coachs name that you mention?I would like to read his article concerning the ncaa.
Bee,now think here. you question my credibity because i make the statement not all d1's perform a walk-on tryout.Yes i could name a name and could also go into some of the tactics used to get around the rule you refer to but nothing gained.Lets end it here bee.
quote:Originally posted by bdt:
living baseball, by recruited, I mean money on the table not recruited walkons.TPM what is the d1 coachs name that you mention?I would like to read his article concerning the ncaa.
Jack Leggett, Clemson University. I posted an article months back and I understand from one of the posters there is an article with him in collegeiate baseball? He and quite a few other coaches spoke out immediately about the new draft rules. Do you think that Pold is the only one who spoke out against them?
If an NCAA D1 school does not hold open tryouts, big trouble. And the bigger the program, the more you better not try to skirt the rules.
Large rosters at many SEC schools has traditionally been the norm, don't take it personally against Coach Polk. One coach that I know unfortunetly just had the unpleasant job of cutting back roster from 44-45 to 37 in fall at a large SEC school. It wasn't fun and regardless of any rules, I think he would have done it anyway. No way do you need that many on roster.
of course I/We do understand ... I'll not pursue your BS any furtherquote:by BDT: Yes i could name a name and could also go into some of the tactics used to get around the rule you refer to but nothing gained.Lets end it here bee.
BS=Bdt/Strategies ... what did ya think I meant??
I brought up the numbers about Polk because he has said he is speaking on behalf of the players. If that were the case, why bring so many recruited walkons, who gave up other scholarships, and then turn around and cut them? I know it's a business but don't say you're a players coach when this is going on within your own team.