rotational clarification

Heres how i swing

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1. How do rotational hitters hit curveballs, swinging on the plane of the curveball before it breaks will make me miss it...

You hit the fastball first. Nobody hits a good curveball.

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2. Catching up with a fastball you werent expecting is terribly hard because theres more things to do.

If you werent expecting a fastball and you get one your finished, no matter what your approach.

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3. Fly balls are outs... When you swing "on the plane" your swinging slightly up and those envoke pop-ups/fly balls. That wasnt a question i was just stating a fact.

Ground balls are also outs, and theres twice as many guys in the infield as there are in the outfield... not to mention the outfielders have to cover three times as much ground.

Deemax, well said!

What happens then if your down 0-2 and they throw a curve? What do you do or should you start walking back to the dugout before it breaks...

quote:

When you swing "on the plane" your swinging slightly up and those envoke pop-ups/fly balls. That wasnt a question i was just stating a fact.

Since you have the facts, you tell us!!

I dont know everything, thats what im trying to get at. I just know some things, and my coach told me that fact anyway... but you didnt answer my 0-2 curveball question.

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... but you didnt answer my 0-2 curveball question.

I would say, listen to your Coach.....That way you might not get cut!!

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3. Fly balls are outs... When you swing "on the plane" your swinging slightly up and those envoke pop-ups/fly balls. That wasnt a question i was just stating a fact.

I hate to disagree with your coach and ground balls might be more valuable at the younger ages. However, there are many pitchers who are in the Major Leagues only because they can get ground balls. Some of these sinker ball specialists have had a great career (ie. Derek Lowe)

Hitting the breaking ball on the ground is doing what the pitcher wants. Most curve balls are missed above the ball or beaten into the ground. Why would anyone want to do that? Does your coach prefer ground balls over fly balls out of his hitters?

0-2 you might want to change your mental approach. Tell yourself if you miss the curve ball you will miss it under the ball. Also mentally picture hitting the CB the other way. Most of the best hitters make their living hitting the fastball.

If for no other reason, hitters only see "good" curve balls in the actual game. There are not many ways to practice hitting the "good" curve ball. You don't see "good" breaking balls in BP.

Shantzee, with reference to your picture, if you were to be "rotational," how would that picture differ? Your scenerio is full of pitfalls including the assertion that no one that hits rotational can hit a curve. Please explain the difference between what you do now with a curve and what you did when you were messed up hitting rotational. When you suggest that rotational hitters have more to do than you do now with your present swing, what in the world are you talking about? Again, you suggest that rotational hitters can't hit the fastball as well as the curve. No wonder those rotational guys have it all screwed up.

quote:

Originally posted by Shantzee:
3. Fly balls are outs... When you swing "on the plane" your swinging slightly up and those envoke pop-ups/fly balls. That wasnt a question i was just stating a fact.

I forget the exact statistics, but they go something like this...

1. 80 percent of ground balls are outs.
2. 60 percent of fly balls are outs.

A hard-hit ground ball is also more likely to get through the infield than is one that is hit into the ground.

Also, the result of swinging on the plane of a FB is a line drive, not a fly ball (since a FB is dropping 5 to 10 degrees off the horizontal). A weak fly ball would only be the result of swinging on the plane of a curveball (e.g. 30 to 45 degree drop).

Also, slow pitch softball hitters hit high arc balls for line drives and home runs.

quote:

Originally posted by Shantzee:
Heres how i swing

This is a nice, largely rotational swing. Your swing looks a lot like Derek Jeter's.

1. Notice the back toe off the ground.
2. Notice the back elbow bent 90 degrees and still at your side (aka connected).
3. Notice the hands rotating with the shoulders rather than flying out at the pitcher.

The only thing that's a little problematic with this swing is that your weight is a little far forward. Your front knee is still bent, which means that your hip rotation isn't perfect and is probably costing your some power.

quote:

Originally posted by Shantzee:
1. How do rotational hitters hit curveballs, swinging on the plane of the curveball before it breaks will make me miss it...

First, your logic is flawed. You can't hit a curveball before it breaks because to do so you would have to hit it 20 or 30 feet in front of the plate (when the break actually starts).

Second, you don't swing on the plane of the curveball, if it's a good one. You have to time your swing and hit across the plane of the curveball.

Third, you also need to wait for a good (e.g. flat) curveball to hit (or a FB). Very few people can hit a good curveball well, which is why it's such an effective pitch.

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Originally posted by Chameleon:
There is no end to thepainguy's nonsense.

How about actually making a point and adding to the conversation rather than simply (and constantly) ripping on me?

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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... but you didnt answer my 0-2 curveball question.

I would say, listen to your Coach.....That way you might not get cut!!

This is a good quote! Many College Coaches recruit a player and then try to change their entire swing and if you don't want to or can't, you will be packing your bags. It is a good question to ask before you sign!

quote:

Originally posted by Shantzee:
Heres how i swing

If you finish in this position, you do have rotation, well...unless you start your swing with your back knee facing the pitcher.

I agree that from the picture, I can see several indicators of a rotational swing but the truth is that one picture can not tell the whole story. Take that front knee, is it bent before or after it has straightened? That knee will, in fact, go straight for a moment in time. However, it will also "soften." The hands and barrel of the bat are blurred ( ) and so, are they still connected, are they being "thrown at the ball," or are they coming away from the body due to centrifical force?

Video is much better to use when assessing a swing. However, do you possess the correct equipment? Do you know how to analyze video? Do you know how to use all of the "bells and whistles" that some of these software products provide to enable you to evaluate video better? We can take someone such as Pujos and have two different posters use those "bells and whistles" to "prove" their different points on any MLB's swing! In fact, I can take Pujos and demonstrate through our archieves how one poster has used video of him to "prove" one theory in the swing process and then find a more recent post of this same poster using very similar video of Pujos disclaiming that very same process. Ironic isn't it!

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Originally posted by CoachB25:
I agree that from the picture, I can see several indicators of a rotational swing but the truth is that one picture can not tell the whole story. Take that front knee, is it bent before or after it has straightened? That knee will, in fact, go straight for a moment in time. However, it will also "soften." The hands and barrel of the bat are blurred ( ) and so, are they still connected, are they being "thrown at the ball," or are they coming away from the body due to centrifical force?

Video is much better to use when assessing a swing. However, do you possess the correct equipment? Do you know how to analyze video? Do you know how to use all of the "bells and whistles" that some of these software products provide to enable you to evaluate video better? We can take someone such as Pujos and have two different posters use those "bells and whistles" to "prove" their different points on any MLB's swing! In fact, I can take Pujos and demonstrate through our archieves how one poster has used video of him to "prove" one theory in the swing process and then find a more recent post of this same poster using very similar video of Pujos disclaiming that very same process. Ironic isn't it!

You are absolutely right that you can't tell what's going on with someone's swing with just one picture or with one video, but no one can argue that someone had to rotate to get in this position. The only way you have no rotation is if your feet are both still pointing in the same direction when you finished as they did when you started. The whole linear/rotational thing is kind of crazy to me. Every good hitter has to have rotation, but using the rotation to force your energy to go in a straight line may be where people see it differently. I believe the latter is the best way to swing a baseball bat, but it can be done with the rotation going in a circular direction at contact as well. I think this approach will result in many more foul balls on inside pitches and fewer line drives, but that is just my opinion.

You guys seem to have me wrong, I'm not a bad hitter and im not asking for tips on my swing, i just wanted to know things for knowledge, not to swing that way. My swing isnt rotational my swing does the A to C thing, some things with A to C and rotational are the same like...1. Notice the back toe off the ground.
2. Notice the back elbow bent 90 degrees and still at your side (aka connected).
3. Notice the hands rotating with the shoulders rather than flying out at the pitcher.
The coaches tell me to do things like that. I'll see if i can find other pictures for you analysis.

One other thing, I didnt make this topic to argue or anything bad. I just wanted to know stuff... And bluedog even though you don't answer my questions with the answers im searching for, I enjoy the answers they make me think

quote:

Originally posted by Shantzee:
My swing isnt rotational my swing does the A to C thing, some things with A to C and rotational are the same like...1. Notice the back toe off the ground.
2. Notice the back elbow bent 90 degrees and still at your side (aka connected).

If your hands actually did the A to C thing, then you wouldn't be as connected as you are at the point of contact. Instead, your hands are closer to, and seem to be rotating with, your shoulder.

I don't think your concept of what you are doing matches up with what you are actually doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Shantzee:
For about 5 month on a travel team i was tought rotational and i did farely well. Then i went to my new HS coach's hitting facility, he watched me and said if I keep hitting rotational I was gonna get cut. So he changed it to the A to C and I noticed a difference... for the better. It has since envoked questions about rotational.

1. How do rotational hitters hit curveballs, swinging on the plane of the curveball before it breaks will make me miss it...

2. Catching up with a fastball you werent expecting is terribly hard because theres more things to do.

3. Fly balls are outs... When you swing "on the plane" your swinging slightly up and those envoke pop-ups/fly balls. That wasnt a question i was just stating a fact.

So if anyone could please discuss about my questions i would appreciate it.

Okay, Shantzee,

Here are the answers to your questions.

#1. They hit them the same way Linear hitters do. They see them with their eyes and adjust their body and hands and take the sweetspot to the ball.

#2. When you practice a certain technique enough, you do it without thinking. The hands start at one point and go to contact no matter what style you are using.

#3. Ted Williams was the first to relate swinging on the plane of the pitch and he was a lifetime .344 hitter and the last to hit .400 for a season and he did it twice. Mathematically, it makes perfect sense and he and Bonds got pretty good results with it.

Both ways of hitting work and you just have to find a way of hitting you enjoy doing and can make successful. Good luck to you and I'll leave you with a quote from Ted Williams and it's the best advice you'll ever get! "Get a good pitch to hit!"

Mr. Williams also says "Hit according to your style" which may be the best tip yet, imho! Also, another established hitter and friend of his, Tony Gywnn, says in page 66 of his book "The Art of Hitting" to "take the knob to the ball," an idea generalized with Linear hitters. Mr. Gwynn was successful too I'd say.

* I was told as a collegiate player by a former Major League player that "what works for him may not work for me, take advise and apply it to what you know, if it fits what you do keep doing it, if not keep working, but to hit, you have to hit every chance you get. What feels good today may feel uncomfortable tomorrow, but that doesn't make it wrong. Don't let the thought of how to do it stop you from having done it." I kept that thought with me through college, had my success, and have passed it on to many successful players. Take the knowledge that has been offered and try, but above all else, HIT!! Think about this stuff on the tee, but when you're hitting, See the ball hit the ball!!

That barrel arcing rearward before the hands move forward IS NOT KNOB TO THE BALL.

Gwynn, like all of em, torques the handle at "go".

His hands lower, then raise, then at "go" he turns the barrel in his hands............no matter what he says he did.

"Knob to the ball" is quite simply bat drag. The high level swing does not include it.

It is alive and well, however, and actually TAUGHT by those who ignore video of the best.

Isn't the arc of the bat at the begining of his swing "just" his "trigger"? From what I can tell (since I can't slow it down), once the trigger is activated his hands move forward, before any core rotation occurs. But there sure is excellent core rotation after his trigger, and after his hands start to the ball. It is not as though you have to bring your hands to the ball for a certain number of frames. It is more of a fast sequence of events. Trigger, Hands, Rotate. Trigger makes everything able to happen quicker, avoiding inertia, so the bat is already in motion before the hitter has determined if it is a pitch to hit or a pitch to take. Hands bring the bat into the hitting zone the fastest, then rotate with the core for power.

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Originally posted by floridafan:
Isn't the arc of the bat at the begining of his swing "just" his "trigger"? From what I can tell (since I can't slow it down), once the trigger is activated his hands move forward, before any core rotation occurs. But there sure is excellent core rotation after his trigger, and after his hands start to the ball. It is not as though you have to bring your hands to the ball for a certain number of frames. It is more of a fast sequence of events. Trigger, Hands, Rotate. Trigger makes everything able to happen quicker, avoiding inertia, so the bat is already in motion before the hitter has determined if it is a pitch to hit or a pitch to take. Hands bring the bat into the hitting zone the fastest, then rotate with the core for power.

What astounds me is that Chameleon won't admit that what Tony Gwynn actually says he is doing, "which is try to hit the ball with the knob of the bat" is clearly what the video shows he is doing when his hands start to the ball. Floridafan, you hit it right on the nose, the cocking of the bat and lowering then raising of the hands are his trigger. When his elbow tucks into his side it makes it appear that his hands are rotating the bat, but he isn't conciously turning the handle, it just happens.

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Originally posted by turnin2:
Mr. Williams also says "Hit according to your style" which may be the best tip yet, imho! Also, another established hitter and friend of his, Tony Gywnn, says in page 66 of his book "The Art of Hitting" to "take the knob to the ball," an idea generalized with Linear hitters. Mr. Gwynn was successful too I'd say.

* I was told as a collegiate player by a former Major League player that "what works for him may not work for me, take advise and apply it to what you know, if it fits what you do keep doing it, if not keep working, but to hit, you have to hit every chance you get. What feels good today may feel uncomfortable tomorrow, but that doesn't make it wrong. Don't let the thought of how to do it stop you from having done it." I kept that thought with me through college, had my success, and have passed it on to many successful players. Take the knowledge that has been offered and try, but above all else, HIT!! Think about this stuff on the tee, but when you're hitting, See the ball hit the ball!!

Amen! Turnin2! Couldn't have said it better!

Play Gwynn's clip frame by frame. The bat is at lag (meaning it has moved from upright/cocked to horizontal to the ground, knob pointed toward the pitcher, barrel pointed toward the catcher) before the knob moves forward. How did it get there? He torques the handle. He turns the barrel in his hands. And then and only then, after it reaches lag, it moves forward as a result of his rotation. Later it moves forward slightly due to arm movement.

Here's the only way you can learn what they are really doing.

Get out your video camera and video yourself, over and over and over until you get it right.

I guarantee you you won't duplicate Gwynn's swing without the "torquing of the handle" being the first thing you do at "go".

Once the arc is created you then get it in front of the ball. That may mean you use the arms. It may not.

But you can not duplicate Gwynn's bat path without first torquing the handle.

That is true with every good mlb hitter.

No mic. I didn't miss a thing. I have nothing to admit. You do. You ignored the first part of his swing. The running start of the barrel.

How about think.......then speak. Ever tried it?

Hmmmmmm....



I guess you overlooked this.

What does the barrel do before any pulling of the knob of any kind occurs?

The barrel has gone from vertical/cocked to lag and the hands are still where?........at the arm pit.

Absolutely no pulling of the knob and he's a couple of frames into his swing.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Hmmmmmm....



I guess you overlooked this.

What does the barrel do before any pulling of the knob of any kind occurs?

The barrel has gone from vertical/cocked to lag and the hands are still where?........at the arm pit.

Absolutely no pulling of the knob and he's a couple of frames into his swing.

No, I didn't overlook anything. As I said, the barrel turns because his elbow tucks into his side. He is tucking his elbow and pulling the knob to the ball (you say pitcher because you can't bear to say to the ball) at the same instant. The thing for you to do is call Mr. Gwynn and ask him what he is doing. It's just like throwing a baseball, a pitcher doesn't conciously try to lay his arm down when he throws, it just happens. Because, during the act of hitting and pitching the bottom half is torquing away from the upper half, there is a moment of hesitation in the bat in hitting and the ball in throwing, that is what causes the whip or "rubberband" effect.

You know, there are Scientists that still say it is impossible to make a baseball curve in 60'6" too! It is much more logical to me to take what the hitter says he is doing and then figure out what happens when he actually does it. Where you take each part and try to fit it into your THEORY on hitting.

You say, "What does the barrel do before any pulling of the knob of any kind occurs?". Right there you admit that he IS pulling the knob!

By tucking his elbow, he is getting on the "plane of the pitch". His "flat bat" is at his waist which is the middle of the strike zone. His bottom hand then guides the bat to the height and general location of the pitch. His eyes stay on the ball and his natural hand eye coordination work together to use his top hand to throw the sweetspot through the ball. His natural ability will help get his body into position to hit the ball (meaning, he will lean/tilt or whatever).

IMO, it is a hitting instructors job to get a hitter in the best position to start his swing and to get them in the best position at contact to get through the ball. Once you teach a hitter the basics (which most do automatically) balance and concentration are the main things that falter and cause slumps.

I believe that getting the "flat bat" on the "plane of the pitch" as soon as possible and taking the "knob to the ball" (in that order) are the two most important parts of the swing itself. But, hey, that's just my "THEORY".

Chameleon,

Yes I see the torquing of the bat handle. I never said it wasn't there, I just quoted Tony Gwynn. He makes reference to a picture of Hank Aaron from CF on a swing and all you see is the knob going to the ball. Not sure who you are in real life, but in any frame at any angle of any hitter you could argue that the knob goes in a path to the ball, no matter how connected you stay..even on a pitch away with perfect connection, you could see the knob going that way IF THAT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!! and to say Gwynn doesn't do what he says...maybe your view, but his approach may be that way. Funny what you describe at "bat lag" is what people used to say made Griffey better, because his bat was in the zone longer.

**Do you have a clip of Gwynn going through the 5.5 hole?? Bet the knob goes to the ball!

quote:

Originally posted by turnin2:
Chameleon,

Yes I see the torquing of the bat handle. I never said it wasn't there, I just quoted Tony Gwynn. He makes reference to a picture of Hank Aaron from CF on a swing and all you see is the knob going to the ball. Not sure who you are in real life, but in any frame at any angle of any hitter you could argue that the knob goes in a path to the ball, no matter how connected you stay..even on a pitch away with perfect connection, you could see the knob going that way IF THAT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!! and to say Gwynn doesn't do what he says...maybe your view, but his approach may be that way. Funny what you describe at "bat lag" is what people used to say made Griffey better, because his bat was in the zone longer.

**Do you have a clip of Gwynn going through the 5.5 hole?? Bet the knob goes to the ball!

God, I love this guy!

quote:

What does the barrel do before any pulling of the knob of any kind occurs?

The barrel has gone from vertical/cocked to lag and the hands are still where?........at the arm pit.

Chameleon, I respect your input. You are valuable to these discussions.

Pulling of the knob does occur, with the degree depending on the location of the pitch. And where it is pulled also varies with the pitch.

I think that the term "knob to ball" is over used, when "pull the knob" offers a better description and allows for adjustment for pitch location. It also allows for the barrel to maintain barrel load until the hitter is ready to rotate it into the ball.

People like their own cues, which often mean the same as another's cues. Pull the knob (not neccessarily to the ball or the pitcher), pull the hands in, maintain the box, and other cues can be cues for the same thing. Yet, an argument ensues.

Especially on a pitch up and in, the knob has to rotate early as the elbows need to get in their position (the front elbow has to raise and the rear elbow has to drop). That is what is going on in the picture you have posted. A pitch in a different location will result in a different start.


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Originally posted by micmeister:
No, I didn't overlook anything. As I said, the barrel turns because his elbow tucks into his side. He is tucking his elbow and pulling the knob to the ball (you say pitcher because you can't bear to say to the ball) at the same instant. The thing for you to do is call Mr. Gwynn and ask him what he is doing. It's just like throwing a baseball, a pitcher doesn't conciously try to lay his arm down when he throws, it just happens. Because, during the act of hitting and pitching the bottom half is torquing away from the upper half, there is a moment of hesitation in the bat in hitting and the ball in throwing, that is what causes the whip or "rubberband" effect.

I don't think knob to the ball is great advice because it can lead to disconnection. However, I could see how it could help to prevent bat drag if not done completely literally; if the hands turn the corner with the shoulders.

I do agree that the bat lays back because the elbow is starting to drop and the shoulders are starting to rotate.

If you go frame by frame through the clip, you will see the barrel of the bat start to lay back toward the catcher at the moment the back elbow starts to drop.

here again its Gwynn's words he used in his book...lets see,

.338 average
3141 Hits
543 2B
85 3B
135 HR
459 Slg %
434 SO
9288 AB

I think his advise would be worthy!

micmister

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It is much more logical to me to take what the hitter says he is doing and then figure out what happens when he actually does it. Where you take each part and try to fit it into your THEORY on hitting.

Like Chameleon or not what he says isnt theory if its backed up by visual proof. If you dont want to look at whats actually happening then thats up to you.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
No, I didn't overlook anything. As I said, the barrel turns because his elbow tucks into his side. He is tucking his elbow and pulling the knob to the ball (you say pitcher because you can't bear to say to the ball) at the same instant. The thing for you to do is call Mr. Gwynn and ask him what he is doing. It's just like throwing a baseball, a pitcher doesn't conciously try to lay his arm down when he throws, it just happens. Because, during the act of hitting and pitching the bottom half is torquing away from the upper half, there is a moment of hesitation in the bat in hitting and the ball in throwing, that is what causes the whip or "rubberband" effect.

I don't think knob to the ball is great advice because it can lead to disconnection. However, I could see how it could help to prevent bat drag if not done completely literally; if the hands turn the corner with the shoulders.

I do agree that the bat lays back because the elbow is starting to drop and the shoulders are starting to rotate.

If you go frame by frame through the clip, you will see the barrel of the bat start to lay back toward the catcher at the moment the back elbow starts to drop.

The knob should only move from launch to in front of the bellybutton up until contact. IMO

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
micmister

quote:

It is much more logical to me to take what the hitter says he is doing and then figure out what happens when he actually does it. Where you take each part and try to fit it into your THEORY on hitting.

Like Chameleon or not what he says isnt theory if its backed up by visual proof. If you dont want to look at whats actually happening then thats up to you.

See posts by turnin2 and thepainguy above. I don't dislike Chameleon, I don't even know him. As a matter of fact, I really like that he provides the video clips and is passionate about what he does. I just don't agree with everything he says although I do with most of what he says (when he actually comes out and says it that is).

quote:

Originally posted by turnin2:
here again its Gwynn's words he used in his book...lets see,

.338 average
3141 Hits
543 2B
85 3B
135 HR
459 Slg %
434 SO
9288 AB

I think his advise would be worthy!

We need to go out and have a beer! I'll buy!

anytime!!