I have read on HSBW that it is better to tell scouts what rounds he will go, instead of how much money it will take.
1. Is this true and why?
2. At what time before the draft does it become necessary to give them an answer?
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Top round: lots of money;
2-5 rounds: lots of money;
6-10 rounds: could be some nice money depending on whether high school or college player;
10-50 rounds: McDonald's coupon and a plane ticket..very modest bonus. Likely out of baseball after 3 seasons (will be working at Wal-Mart as a greeter in the off season).
Don't tell them anything other than you want to play pro ball. After all, they are the professionals in the business and you and mom and dad are novices.
2-5 rounds: lots of money;
6-10 rounds: could be some nice money depending on whether high school or college player;
10-50 rounds: McDonald's coupon and a plane ticket..very modest bonus. Likely out of baseball after 3 seasons (will be working at Wal-Mart as a greeter in the off season).
Don't tell them anything other than you want to play pro ball. After all, they are the professionals in the business and you and mom and dad are novices.
HowUbe,
While money and round are tied closely together, I have a hard time trying to figure out why anyone would put more emphasis on the round than on the money.
The second part of the question is “never”. While EVERY scout will tell you they need to know what round or how much money it will take for your son to sign, many advisors will tell the parent and the player not to tell the scouts round or money. They say the same as BeenthereIl and to tell them to draft the player on his ability ---- not his signability.
Fungo
While money and round are tied closely together, I have a hard time trying to figure out why anyone would put more emphasis on the round than on the money.
The second part of the question is “never”. While EVERY scout will tell you they need to know what round or how much money it will take for your son to sign, many advisors will tell the parent and the player not to tell the scouts round or money. They say the same as BeenthereIl and to tell them to draft the player on his ability ---- not his signability.
Fungo
HowUBe,
First 10 rounds (except if you get to be one of the lucky first few picks in the first) are pretty set as far as bonus and MLB. You don't have to really tell them anything, just as Been suggests, you want to play pro ball, if that is what the player really wants to do. Sometimes however, depending on circumstances, silence may not get you anything. A player with a solid commitment to college and a very nice scholarship becomes a signability issue and some teams won't go there if not sure of what the player really wants. Telling them that one would expect fair market value for round, position, age etc. might be sufficient. An advisor might be needed for these questions.
I don't think being chosen in the first 10 rounds is always a surprise to players, sometimes what team is the surprise. So it's important to know what each round brings and who picks when and where. If you should perhaps get chosen in the second round (which player indicated he would sign) and you become the 4th, 5th pick of a team with many first day picks, the money one would be expecting for second round may not be there. So does it then become a money issue with the player to give up college when he gets less than he wanted, or does he realize round 2 makes him a true prospect and a lot more chances than the second day picks. It is very confusing!
I do know many players that have been drafted later and received nice bonus, one player in the 45th round who received 5th,6th round money as an example. Not sure if this made him a true propect at the time, though now he is ranked among the top ten in his organization.
I also know of a player drafted much higher round receiving a million bonus. Sometimes this happens, early round money gets freed up due to someone not signing, or sometimes a pre draft discussion, which is not supposed to happen but often does.
Just something to think about.
First 10 rounds (except if you get to be one of the lucky first few picks in the first) are pretty set as far as bonus and MLB. You don't have to really tell them anything, just as Been suggests, you want to play pro ball, if that is what the player really wants to do. Sometimes however, depending on circumstances, silence may not get you anything. A player with a solid commitment to college and a very nice scholarship becomes a signability issue and some teams won't go there if not sure of what the player really wants. Telling them that one would expect fair market value for round, position, age etc. might be sufficient. An advisor might be needed for these questions.
I don't think being chosen in the first 10 rounds is always a surprise to players, sometimes what team is the surprise. So it's important to know what each round brings and who picks when and where. If you should perhaps get chosen in the second round (which player indicated he would sign) and you become the 4th, 5th pick of a team with many first day picks, the money one would be expecting for second round may not be there. So does it then become a money issue with the player to give up college when he gets less than he wanted, or does he realize round 2 makes him a true prospect and a lot more chances than the second day picks. It is very confusing!
I do know many players that have been drafted later and received nice bonus, one player in the 45th round who received 5th,6th round money as an example. Not sure if this made him a true propect at the time, though now he is ranked among the top ten in his organization.
I also know of a player drafted much higher round receiving a million bonus. Sometimes this happens, early round money gets freed up due to someone not signing, or sometimes a pre draft discussion, which is not supposed to happen but often does.
Just something to think about.
Thanks to all of you for your opinions and information.
I think the part that worries me the most is something Fungo said: “draft the player on his ability ---- not his signability.” Of course, money is important because most people have to make a living, but what is even more important is what they really think about his “ability.” I have had scouts say it doesn’t matter what round they draft him in as long as he gets the money he wants.
Isn’t what round you go in a reflection of where they think your ability falls or is it just because of signability?
Most scouts say you don’t need an ‘advisor” unless you are signing a major league contract. Some even say they will not sign a kid if he has certain “advisors”.
Do advisors help or hurt a kid?
I think the part that worries me the most is something Fungo said: “draft the player on his ability ---- not his signability.” Of course, money is important because most people have to make a living, but what is even more important is what they really think about his “ability.” I have had scouts say it doesn’t matter what round they draft him in as long as he gets the money he wants.
Isn’t what round you go in a reflection of where they think your ability falls or is it just because of signability?
Most scouts say you don’t need an ‘advisor” unless you are signing a major league contract. Some even say they will not sign a kid if he has certain “advisors”.
Do advisors help or hurt a kid?
HowUBe,
Fine, thank you.
You are asking all the right questions.
And, after you get all the right answers to your questions you will still have the same questions......
But, you still need all the answers to those questions, before you can decide what's best for you.
I hope this helps howube.
Fine, thank you.
You are asking all the right questions.
And, after you get all the right answers to your questions you will still have the same questions......
But, you still need all the answers to those questions, before you can decide what's best for you.
I hope this helps howube.
The round you are drafted in can make a difference with baseball card and equipment deals. I think it would be more important to be the last player drafted in the 1st round than the first person drafted in the 2nd round, even if the 2nd rounder got a bigger signing bonus.
The round you were drafted in follows you your whole career.
The round you were drafted in follows you your whole career.
TPM and others: At what age should a player start thinking about seeing an advisor? And, how do you find potential advisors? How do you get information to use to evaluate them and their reputations?
HowUbe, You asked very good questions, and in my opinion, you recieved some good answers and some answers that will send your son to college. If college is your top priority, then you can do whatever you want with the questions a scout asks. If signing is your top priority, then answering a scouts questions is very important.
In all the years I have scouted, I have never drafted a player who did not give me an indication of what round money he would sign for. If you are the number one player in the nation, or in the top 5-6, you can play whatever game you want to play. If you are a solid 3rd rounder and play hard to get, you can end up in college. If that is what you want, then everything is cool. If you want to sign however, then the advice of not telling the scout anything will do you in.
There are some teams that will draft a player down the line and then offer him the money they thought he was worth in the first place. There are many teams however that are on strict budgets that just won't draft the player......period.
If a scout tells his boss that a player will sign for 3rd round money and they then draft him and can't come close to signing him, a scout can lose his job, and many have done just that. I love my job and if a young man, his family and their advisor can't give me a rough estimate of what it will take to sign him, I will then just go to the next guy on my list who really wants to play pro ball and is willing to sign for a figure that both parties think is fair.
In all the years I have scouted, I have never drafted a player who did not give me an indication of what round money he would sign for. If you are the number one player in the nation, or in the top 5-6, you can play whatever game you want to play. If you are a solid 3rd rounder and play hard to get, you can end up in college. If that is what you want, then everything is cool. If you want to sign however, then the advice of not telling the scout anything will do you in.
There are some teams that will draft a player down the line and then offer him the money they thought he was worth in the first place. There are many teams however that are on strict budgets that just won't draft the player......period.
If a scout tells his boss that a player will sign for 3rd round money and they then draft him and can't come close to signing him, a scout can lose his job, and many have done just that. I love my job and if a young man, his family and their advisor can't give me a rough estimate of what it will take to sign him, I will then just go to the next guy on my list who really wants to play pro ball and is willing to sign for a figure that both parties think is fair.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
TPM and others: At what age should a player start thinking about seeing an advisor? And, how do you find potential advisors? How do you get information to use to evaluate them and their reputations?
My personal opinion, unless the player is expected to be one of those top players bbscout speaks of, I don't find it necessary if one has done their homework on what to expect. Your area MLB representative can also be helpful with answering your questions.
As far as finding an advisor, if you need to find one, you probably don't need one as they will seek out your son. Remember the advisor wants to become the agent, no matter which round. If your son is drafted early, and wants to sign, there will be plenty knocking on the door.
You have gotten the BEST advice from bbscout. Be honest, let them know exactly what you want, round or dollars whichever you feel will be the deciding difference in giving up college to go pro.
bbscout,
I found your post to be very helpful. Thank you.
FO
I found your post to be very helpful. Thank you.
FO
quote:Originally posted by FormerObserver:
And, after you get all the right answers to your questions you will still have the same questions......
Have two questions ~
Do you have to have an advisor?
On signing day, how soon does an answer have to be given? A prospect is deciding between college or pro, when would they have to let the pro team know their decision?
Do you have to have an advisor?
On signing day, how soon does an answer have to be given? A prospect is deciding between college or pro, when would they have to let the pro team know their decision?
Originally posted by BeenthereIL
Not 100% true, my pitching coach was drafted in the 47th round to the Marlins (not a lot of money) in the 1996 draft and he still got a $100,000 signing bonus. I admit its not like the higher rounds but 100K is still a lot of money.
quote:Top round: lots of money;
2-5 rounds: lots of money;
6-10 rounds: could be some nice money depending on whether high school or college player;
10-50 rounds: McDonald's coupon and a plane ticket..very modest bonus. Likely out of baseball after 3 seasons (will be working at Wal-Mart as a greeter in the off season).
Not 100% true, my pitching coach was drafted in the 47th round to the Marlins (not a lot of money) in the 1996 draft and he still got a $100,000 signing bonus. I admit its not like the higher rounds but 100K is still a lot of money.
Is Andy Bair your pitching coach? What school do you go to again?
lions...There is an EXCEPTION to every rule.
He likely would have been drafted higher but for the fact that they were the "wrong" club drafting him; or, they lost someone in a higher round; or, they decided his skill level warranted that amount of money. Sometimes a player or two slips through the cracks.
Few years ago there was a kid in Chicagoland that was drafted out of Oak Forest High School in the middle of the draft that got some nice numbers,too.
Generally, though, my "rules" stand up.
10-50 is "hamburger country"...i.e., organizational players who get released after the 3-month long summer short-season; or, within the first 3 years (years being defined for short-season clubs for the 1st 2 "seasons"; and, maybe 1 season at a regular season club.
Try to live for a year on what you make in the low minors in June, July and August.
Likely have to work with the pensioners welcoming people to Wal-Mart to supplement your income during the off season.
He likely would have been drafted higher but for the fact that they were the "wrong" club drafting him; or, they lost someone in a higher round; or, they decided his skill level warranted that amount of money. Sometimes a player or two slips through the cracks.
Few years ago there was a kid in Chicagoland that was drafted out of Oak Forest High School in the middle of the draft that got some nice numbers,too.
Generally, though, my "rules" stand up.
10-50 is "hamburger country"...i.e., organizational players who get released after the 3-month long summer short-season; or, within the first 3 years (years being defined for short-season clubs for the 1st 2 "seasons"; and, maybe 1 season at a regular season club.
Try to live for a year on what you make in the low minors in June, July and August.
Likely have to work with the pensioners welcoming people to Wal-Mart to supplement your income during the off season.
mcozart you have a PM
Certain Situations deem needed to have an "advisor", but what these parents don't understand is this....Advisors are a nuetral party involved in the negotiation process on behalf of your kid. Emotions won't play a role in our "price" with teams, therefore it won't scare teams off. Plus, once your kid is playing for a MLB affiliate (or Indy ball), we are there for them...taking care of the "off the field stuff". Say you're one of those parents that "don't need an advisor"....do you know who to call, where to go, or what to do...in the case of your son getting released, not paid, etc.? Not all agents are unbearable....some of us actually take care of, & look out for the well bieing of our clients.....I got a list that proves it!
quote:Advisors are a nuetral party involved in the negotiation process on behalf of your kid
PSM, That is mumble jumble talk. How can an advisors be neutral and represent and/or negotiate on behalf of someone? Think about that! Besides, the last time I checked, the NCAA strictly prohibits advisors from the negotiation process altogether. I know you think we parents are emotional, uninformed beings that are nothing but baggage and muddy the water during the transition into the pro ranks. We in reality are the main obstacle between you and your next paycheck. Be nice, you could be biting the hand that feeds you.
Fungo
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:quote:Advisors are a nuetral party involved in the negotiation process on behalf of your kid
PSM, That is mumble jumble talk. How can an advisors be neutral and represent and/or negotiate on behalf of someone? Think about that! Besides, the last time I checked, the NCAA strictly prohibits advisors from the negotiation process altogether. I know you think we parents are emotional, uninformed beings that are nothing but baggage and muddy the water during the transition into the pro ranks. We in reality are the main obstacle between you and your next paycheck. Be nice, you could be biting the hand that feeds you.
Fungo
Okay, 1st off...you may have misunderstood my comments, or thought they were deameaning..which they weren't. There are quite a few parent(s) that were "too involved" with their child's process (in many sports). It's humane nature to want the best (or more) for your child. But, yes Agents (Advisors) are experienced, & MOST of us are "on behalf of our client". Isn't the key to negotiation "win/win"?
& for your comment about the NCAA...."advisors" are illegal technically, but there's a gray area, that allows it...just ask your SuperAgents, like Boras, Rosenhaus, etc....
But my company is one of the most unique, because our clients aren't our financial pawn, like most agencies....I make money regardless, not off my clients.
Why do you say ADVISORS = AGENTS ?
You are misleading people and since E-6 listed a link to you I would truly be skeptical !
You are misleading people and since E-6 listed a link to you I would truly be skeptical !
I use both terms (Agent/Advisor) since the roles tend to change. Before actually signing a "player agent" contract with an athlete, you tend to "advise" families of many different things. You in turn, become a players "agent" once the eligibility isn't an issue, paperwork is signed, etc.
PS....What do you mean "E-6 listed a link to me?"
Side note....
While the NCAA prohibits an amateur athlete from using an agent, the athlete may utilize an advisor to guide him through the college selection process, and then help the athlete and his family to decipher the events leading up to the Major League Baseball Draft.
PS....What do you mean "E-6 listed a link to me?"
Side note....
While the NCAA prohibits an amateur athlete from using an agent, the athlete may utilize an advisor to guide him through the college selection process, and then help the athlete and his family to decipher the events leading up to the Major League Baseball Draft.
PSM
Check his recent posts
Check his recent posts
PSM
Check the thread regarding the top 10 players to be drafted out of HS by DIbble ( e-6, Andy May)--just his usual stuff
Check the thread regarding the top 10 players to be drafted out of HS by DIbble ( e-6, Andy May)--just his usual stuff
quote:Originally posted by E-6:
http://www.sportsmanagementworldwide.com/agents.asp?action=view&agentid=93
Okay, so you found the SMWW site. I do work for them, & have been since 2003. Do a little research on the company, & the CEO, Dr. Lynn Lashbrook & you'll see that his attempts @ turning the agency industry around is remarkable.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
10-50 rounds: McDonald's coupon and a plane ticket..very modest bonus. Likely out of baseball after 3 seasons (will be working at Wal-Mart as a greeter in the off season).
Don't tell them anything other than you want to play pro ball. QUOTE]
.......WRONG..................
10-50 rounds: McDonald's coupon and a plane ticket..very modest bonus. Likely out of baseball after 3 seasons (will be working at Wal-Mart as a greeter in the off season).
Don't tell them anything other than you want to play pro ball. QUOTE]
.......WRONG..................
I can tell you how i did it. They asked me on the questionairres what rounds i EXPECTED to go in, and i always said top 5, now i was also projected to go in the top 5 with no problem, but i never said i would SIGN in the top 5, i just said that i expected to go in the top 5. Now that its after the fact....maybe i should have gave some sort of money figure, because most of the scouts i've talked to since have said " if we knew you would have signed for that much we would have taken you earlier" so obviously they thought i wanted more money than that. But in all reality the draft is a **** shoot, so just have fun and play ball, let it all play out by itself. Because i know guys that were almost a lock on the top 3 rounds last year drop to the 18th-25th rounds, one guy even went undrafted. So the best advice i could give you is just go out and have fun.
AHS Pitcher17. Thanks for the advise. I like hearing from people that have actually experienced the draft. We just roll with the punches and so far son is having fun. So far some of the scouts talk to us but since son is pitcher he is usually running after game and he doesn't deal with them.
Alot of it goes into "signability" of a kid....especially a HS 1. If a team has huge interests in a player, but knows he's gonna go to college, then they don't use a pick on him until late in the draft. @ least they will then own his rights for the year....just in case. Zac Putnam of Pioneer HS (MI) is a good example. He was a projected 1-6 rd guy, & wanted a million plus. He already committed to Michigan, & was using that as leverage. That scared teams, & he didn't get drafter til after the mid 30's (rd), by the Tigers....just for the "rights" issue.
Pentagon,
I think it’s funny that “advisors” give their “client” list and they are all professional athletes. One would assume the majority a “good” advisor’s clients would be college students.
Explain this statement:”my company is one of the most unique, because our clients aren't our financial pawn, like most agencies....I make money regardless, not off my clients.
This is unique and earth shattering, every agent/advisor I dealt with charged a fee and that fee was based on monies PAID to the agency. Are you saying your clients retain 100% of their signing bonus when they sign a professional contract? That is a novel idea! I have been misled to believe that all agents’ salaries were funded by their clientele? If you (or your agency) represent your clients pro bono as you indicate, what activity generates the revenue for the agency and the agent?
Fungo
I think it’s funny that “advisors” give their “client” list and they are all professional athletes. One would assume the majority a “good” advisor’s clients would be college students.
Explain this statement:”my company is one of the most unique, because our clients aren't our financial pawn, like most agencies....I make money regardless, not off my clients.
This is unique and earth shattering, every agent/advisor I dealt with charged a fee and that fee was based on monies PAID to the agency. Are you saying your clients retain 100% of their signing bonus when they sign a professional contract? That is a novel idea! I have been misled to believe that all agents’ salaries were funded by their clientele? If you (or your agency) represent your clients pro bono as you indicate, what activity generates the revenue for the agency and the agent?
Fungo
quote:Originally posted by Pentagon Sports Management:
Alot of it goes into "signability" of a kid....especially a HS 1. If a team has huge interests in a player, but knows he's gonna go to college, then they don't use a pick on him until late in the draft. @ least they will then own his rights for the year....just in case. Zac Putnam of Pioneer HS (MI) is a good example. He was a projected 1-6 rd guy, & wanted a million plus. He already committed to Michigan, & was using that as leverage. That scared teams, & he didn't get drafter til after the mid 30's (rd), by the Tigers....just for the "rights" issue.
If the player goes to a 4 year school like Michigan, the club does not own his rights. The club loses the rights to him the second he steps into class in the fall. The only way to keep his rights for a year is for the player to go to a JC. I would hope that as an agent,you would know this already.
quote:Originally posted by Pentagon Sports Management:quote:Originally posted by E-6:
http://www.sportsmanagementworldwide.com/agents.asp?action=view&agentid=93
Okay, so you found the SMWW site. I do work for them, & have been since 2003. Do a little research on the company, & the CEO, Dr. Lynn Lashbrook & you'll see that his attempts @ turning the agency industry around is remarkable.
No offense but the agent page with the Photos and bios looks more like an Amway directory without the sales success. Based on the bios it looks like too many are drinking the purple kool-aide.
As a Dad who has never dealt with advisors or at this point does not need one, I would say that common sense would say to check references and interview any advisor/agent as you would any business transaction.
quote:BBscout posted: If the player goes to a 4 year school like Michigan, the club does not own his rights. The club loses the rights to him the second he steps into class in the fall. The only way to keep his rights for a year is for the player to go to a JC. I would hope that as an agent,you would know this already.
Sweet Sassy Molassy Van!! Even I knew that, and I'm just an ignorant parent.
Yikes, with the misinformation provided, or rather unable to explain himself correctly, PSM either needs to go back to school or take up another profession. 
That website is sorta scary.
Wannabe an agent?...click here
Need an agent?...Click here
Wanna learn to be an MLB GM online? Click here.
Wannabe an agent?...click here
Need an agent?...Click here
Wanna learn to be an MLB GM online? Click here.
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
Pentagon,
I think it’s funny that “advisors” give their “client” list and they are all professional athletes. One would assume the majority a “good” advisor’s clients would be college students.
Explain this statement:”my company is one of the most unique, because our clients aren't our financial pawn, like most agencies....I make money regardless, not off my clients.
This is unique and earth shattering, every agent/advisor I dealt with charged a fee and that fee was based on monies PAID to the agency. Are you saying your clients retain 100% of their signing bonus when they sign a professional contract? That is a novel idea! I have been misled to believe that all agents’ salaries were funded by their clientele? If you (or your agency) represent your clients pro bono as you indicate, what activity generates the revenue for the agency and the agent?
Fungo
Okay, so I didn't complete my post....but, yes you're correct, & 2, I did know that. Sometimes with these "post", you cannot get the full thing typed without losing interest. You're all entitles to your opinions...It's all good.
Thought so............
PSM
A agent/advisor cannot finish a post because he loses interest--now that is truly scary
I dont think I would want you talking to my kid or any of our players for that matter--you might fall asleep during your presentation
A agent/advisor cannot finish a post because he loses interest--now that is truly scary
I dont think I would want you talking to my kid or any of our players for that matter--you might fall asleep during your presentation
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
If the player goes to a 4 year school like Michigan, the club does not own his rights. The club loses the rights to him the second he steps into class in the fall. The only way to keep his rights for a year is for the player to go to a JC. I would hope that as an agent,you would know this already.
Is this true of a JC kid who tranfers to a 4 year for his Jr. year? Does a team lose their rights, or is it an equivalent of a DFE?
The team loses it's right to the player the moment he sets foot in class in the fall.
