Rules on the BBCOR bats

quote:

Originally posted by Mizzoubaseball:
Just out of curiousity, is there an actual rule that the bat has to have a label or whatver stating it is a bbcor bat?

In our fall league the boys have to use wood or bbcor. One of the other teams have an aluminum bat that has no markings whatsoever on it. Cant even tell what kind of bat it is. Sounds like a BESR bat when the boys make contact with it. Another coach said it is an illegal bat and they just sanded every marking off it so nobody would know. I said that I thought it had to have a BBCOR "brand" on it or whatever or it was illegal. Isnt that the case. Not that I would say anything to the umpire or challenge it, but I was just curious.

The only way to know , would be for you to open the rulebook the games are being played under and see for yourself. If you’re talking HS fall ball, its pretty typical for some of the rules that would closely adhered to in the spring season, to be shall we say stretched a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by Mizzoubaseball:
Just out of curiousity, is there an actual rule that the bat has to have a label or whatver stating it is a bbcor bat?

In our fall league the boys have to use wood or bbcor. One of the other teams have an aluminum bat that has no markings whatsoever on it. Cant even tell what kind of bat it is. Sounds like a BESR bat when the boys make contact with it. Another coach said it is an illegal bat and they just sanded every marking off it so nobody would know. I said that I thought it had to have a BBCOR "brand" on it or whatever or it was illegal. Isnt that the case. Not that I would say anything to the umpire or challenge it, but I was just curious.

Look on-line at any baseball sporting good provider, or check their catalog (ala, baseballexpress) and see the answer to your question.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
Look on-line at any baseball sporting good provider, or check their catalog (ala, baseballexpress) and see the answer to your question.

How will that answer his question? Those places don’t post every possible rule book do they?

Heres a photo of the BBCOR stamp. http://www.justbats.com/produc...-bb11s2-adult/14438/

The only times you see legal bats with no markings are when High schools or colleges are testing bats for a company and those arnt even legal for games.

This should answer your questions on that.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/co...2971bb77bb57dd7ba775


http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal...Standards/index.html

quote:

Originally posted by LJ3813:
Heres a photo of the BBCOR stamp. http://www.justbats.com/produc...-bb11s2-adult/14438/

The only times you see legal bats with no markings are when High schools or colleges are testing bats for a company and those arnt even legal for games.

This should answer your questions on that.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/co...2971bb77bb57dd7ba775

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal...Standards/index.html

I’m giving you folks a bit of a hard time for a reason. The OP asks: is there an actual rule that the bat has to have a label or whatver stating it is a bbcor bat?

Rules are in rule books, but different rule books often have different rules on exactly the same subject. Its nice to see where rules come from, but if you were going to show someone why the NCAA rule about reads as it does, why not show the rule?

Illegal Bat
SECTION 41. A bat that does not display the BBCOR certification mark, or in the umpire’s judgment or upon appeal of the opposing team, has been altered so as to affect the distance factor, or cause an unusual reaction on the baseball.

And if he’s asking about the NFHS rule, its goes quite a bit further.

If you are playing in a league that requires wood or a BBCOR and a bat is in play that has no marking or identification it should be removed from use.....

IN Pa, during the season, we have to check bats for the proper marking and dent/defects....we disallow any we feel as improper....

Stats has a point, that in fall ball, much of that is left to the league...Im doing some fall club ball now...although it is basically HS baseball its not NFHS/PIAA sanctioned....they have free substitiuion and can pinch run for anyone...and any BESR/BBcor/wood bat that is -3....

If challenged on the bat that you mentioned, Id remove it for not being able to identify the bat as -3 or as a BBcor if that is the fall league standard....

Will all wood bats be able to be played with in USSSA or only a few wood Bats? Will wood bats have to have the BBCOR stamp on them as the new BBCOR bats? I think my son is going to just use a wood bat this year, but still debating it. I'm so confused on all the new bat rules if someone could give some guidance it would be appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by gindog:
Will all wood bats be able to be played with in USSSA or only a few wood Bats? Will wood bats have to have the BBCOR stamp on them as the new BBCOR bats? I think my son is going to just use a wood bat this year, but still debating it. I'm so confused on all the new bat rules if someone could give some guidance it would be appreciated.

That’s precisely what I was trying to say! I hadn’t heard that USSSA was doing jack with BBCOR. The last I knew, they used the BPF standard. If that’s true, why would you put a kid at such a huge disadvantage by making him use wood while everyone else was using some super light, hot, non-wood bat?

PLEASE! Find the USSSA rules on the web and read them! It shouldn’t take you more than a few minutes to find them.

Gin,
the short answer to your question is that USSSA will be using NFHS regs for HS age players. That means BBCOR or Wood. For the time being, wood does not have to have the BBCOR stamp. If you have concerns there, look at the Demarini wood composites - they are BBCOR.

By the way, BBCOR generally still slightly outperforms wood unless hit dead on the sweetspot, which is smaller for wood. It is true that wood generally has better feel. Early indications are that, as anticipated, some of the new BBCORs are performing a bit better than first year versions.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Gin,
the short answer to your question is that USSSA will be using NFHS regs for HS age players. That means BBCOR or Wood. For the time being, wood does not have to have the BBCOR stamp. If you have concerns there, look at the Demarini wood composites - they are BBCOR.

By the way, BBCOR generally still slightly outperforms wood unless hit dead on the sweetspot, which is smaller for wood. It is true that wood generally has better feel. Early indications are that, as anticipated, some of the new BBCORs are performing a bit better than first year versions.

Rather than paraphrase, why not provide the link to the rules? I read them and didn’t see where USSSA would be using NFHS regs for HS age players. Close, but no banana. That’s why I encourage reading the rules for one’s self. http://www.usssa.com/usssa/uss...ouncement4-22-11.pdf

Where did you find any evidence that says all BBCOR bats have smaller sweetspots? I’ve looked all over the place for some kind of scientific evidence to support that, but to no avail. So I’d really appreciate a link if you have it handy.

One thing I noticed that made me a little ill, is that there’s gonna be yet another bat list. If I was an umpire I’d cut my throat.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Rather than paraphrase, why not provide the link to the rules? I read them and didn’t see where USSSA would be using NFHS regs for HS age players. Close, but no banana. That’s why I encourage reading the rules for one’s self.

I don't think Gin needs that and I understand his confusion with the rule books but here ya go...

"
USSSA 2011 and 2012 Baseball Bat Performance Standards

15 and Over High School Age Groups

While USSSA believes that the material oriented 2011 ban and the ultimate move to a wood like performance standard is not in the best interests of the game, USSSA will continue its policy for 15 and over of following the NHSF rules. Because so many of our 15 and over players are focused on being a part of their High School teams, it is the view of USSSA that its customers are best served by playing with the same bats that they will be using in High School play. Thus, if a bat is legal under the NHFS rules, it is legal for USSSA sanctioned play. If not legal for NHFS play, it is not legal for USSSA play."

quote:

Where did you find any evidence that says all BBCOR bats have smaller sweetspots? I’ve looked all over the place for some kind of scientific evidence to support that, but to no avail. So I’d really appreciate a link if you have it handy.

I didn't say that. I said wood sweetspot is smaller. I work with hitters. I still jump in the cage and hit myself. I worked with the manufacturers for many years and still converse with some currently in the biz. No links. Just me.

Update on the situation. Since we are going to BBCOR next year, this fall we are to use them or wood. We played this team tonight. They didnt have enough players so they had to forfeit. I asked the umpire about it and he basically said if its not marked BBCOR, it is illegal and they walked away. We gave them two of our player to play a scrimmage and I umpired from behind the pitchers mound. They used the bat and you could tell it was a BESR. Our pitcher said no way that was a BBCOR bat. I told him to tell his teammates to use whatever they wanted to since the game was essentially a practice game. In the fall, none of this really matters, but I was just curious as to what the rules were. I appreciate the answers and glad I could offer some good discussions here.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
I didn't say that. I said wood sweetspot is smaller. I work with hitters. I still jump in the cage and hit myself. I worked with the manufacturers for many years and still converse with some currently in the biz. No links. Just me.

JEEZ! Talk about a major fat finger flub on my part! I meant to say “wood bats have…”. Getting old and don’t check what I’ve written as closely as I once did. I apologize.

Well, I’ll keep tryin’ to find evidence that proves one way or the other that the sweet spot on wood is smaller than “ALL” non-wood bats. It wasn’t very hard to tell prior to BBCOR, but now the difference between the two has shrunk to what it should have been a long time ago.

The reason I’m trying to find out, is to prove one way or the other that practicing with wood is really all that much of a benefit, and if it is, is it equally beneficial to everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by gindog:
Will all wood bats be able to be played with in USSSA or only a few wood Bats? Will wood bats have to have the BBCOR stamp on them as the new BBCOR bats? I think my son is going to just use a wood bat this year, but still debating it. I'm so confused on all the new bat rules if someone could give some guidance it would be appreciated.

true wood bats are legal at all levels of play....and they do not require any stamp or labeling....

quote:

Originally posted by Mizzoubaseball:
Update on the situation. Since we are going to BBCOR next year, this fall we are to use them or wood. We played this team tonight. They didnt have enough players so they had to forfeit. I asked the umpire about it and he basically said if its not marked BBCOR, it is illegal and they walked away. We gave them two of our player to play a scrimmage and I umpired from behind the pitchers mound. They used the bat and you could tell it was a BESR. Our pitcher said no way that was a BBCOR bat. I told him to tell his teammates to use whatever they wanted to since the game was essentially a practice game. In the fall, none of this really matters, but I was just curious as to what the rules were. I appreciate the answers and glad I could offer some good discussions here.

I predict you’re gonna have the same thing happen to you, that happened to almost all college teams, and the HS team here in Ca. Now, and up ‘til the season starts, there’s gonna be a flurry discussion about how good or bad BBCOR is, what its gonna do the game, and how its gonna affect you’re individual team.

Then once the season gets going, the rhetoric’s gonna change to how BBCOR caused this or that to happen, and all the while there’s gonna be article after article written about it, keeping it in the news. Then, my guess is around a third to halfway through the season, the rhetoric will start to fade. And finally, once you get down to the point where the games actually mean a lot, or the season is hopeless, there’s gonna be very little talk about bats at all.

Of course there will always be the comparisons to show how much offense has fallen off, but it will just be eye candy for those who have little to do other than look for excuses. In the end, the whole process is a lot like the different stages of grief. There comes a point in time when the inevitable is final accepted, and people move on to other more productive things to think about.

If you want an interesting exercise, and something to talk about at games, try what I did. Take a look here. http://www.infosports.com/scor...r/images/compare.pdf

I did that before each and every game last season. Say it was the 7th game of the season. I calculated all the numbers for the current season, then I calculated the numbers for all the previous seasons for the 1st 7 games, then compared them as you see.

Amazingly, even though we played a more “difficult” schedule, it wasn’t until the last few games where the 2011 offensive performance was lower, and the pitching performance was better.

Try it. Maybe you can only get last years data, but its still fun to look at as the season goes by. I know there were sure a few loud voices who by the end of the season had to be totally quiet.

After all that has been said here I made come calls to some of the bat makers. I had two bat maker tell me that my son would be better useing wood the there new bbcor bats.He has been useing a cf4 32-3. He has been useing this bat since that came out in 2010 and useing a wood bat for over two years. Last weekend he hit 2 triple, 3 double and 1 single with his wood bat against some of the local HS fall teams.

quote:

Originally posted by gindog:
After all that has been said here I made come calls to some of the bat makers. I had two bat maker tell me that my son would be better useing wood the there new bbcor bats.He has been useing a cf4 32-3. He has been useing this bat since that came out in 2010 and useing a wood bat for over two years. Last weekend he hit 2 triple, 3 double and 1 single with his wood bat against some of the local HS fall teams.

Which bat makers told you that? I just find it totally amazing that someone who manufactures bats would tell customers not to use their product.

Your kid sounds like he’s on his way to a bright baseball future. I’ve honestly never heard of a HS player using nothing but wood in the regular HS season games, and I’d be really interested in seeing his numbers compared to other players in his league. Can you say what league that is and where they post the league statistics so I can do some research?

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

quote:

Originally posted by gindog:
After all that has been said here I made come calls to some of the bat makers. I had two bat maker tell me that my son would be better useing wood the there new bbcor bats.He has been useing a cf4 32-3. He has been useing this bat since that came out in 2010 and useing a wood bat for over two years. Last weekend he hit 2 triple, 3 double and 1 single with his wood bat against some of the local HS fall teams.

Which bat makers told you that? I just find it totally amazing that someone who manufactures bats would tell customers not to use their product.

Your kid sounds like he’s on his way to a bright baseball future. I’ve honestly never heard of a HS player using nothing but wood in the regular HS season games, and I’d be really interested in seeing his numbers compared to other players in his league. Can you say what league that is and where they post the league statistics so I can do some research?

I've been a business owner. If my business were manufacturing BBCOR bats, knowing what I know, I think I'd suggest Wood as a better alternative!

In fact, didn't Nike just indirectly say what you say would be amazing? (quote) "I'd find it totally amazing that someone who manufactures bats would tell customers not to use their product."

Moreover, I really don't need to spend time and energy researching statistical performance differentials among BESR, BBCOR and Wood bats at any level.

Those differences are readily apparent to anyone who has played the game and certainly should be to anyone who has closely observed.

Sometimes, the facts just get in the way of a good story or often interfere with a great idea or decision.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
I've been a business owner. If my business were manufacturing BBCOR bats, knowing what I know, I think I'd suggest Wood as a better alternative!

In fact, didn't Nike just indirectly say what you say would be amazing? (quote) "I'd find it totally amazing that someone who manufactures bats would tell customers not to use their product."

Where did Nike say not to use their product?

quote:

Moreover, I really don't need to spend time and energy researching statistical performance differentials among BESR, BBCOR and Wood bats at any level.

Those differences are readily apparent to anyone who has played the game and certainly should be to anyone who has closely observed.

I understand. It is certainly a whole lot easier to just accept what other say, rather to try to find out for yourself. It doesn’t make you evil or lazy. Just not very inquisitive.

quote:

Sometimes, the facts just get in the way of a good story or often interfere with a great idea or decision.

Yeah, that’s a common belief shared by a lot of people. After all, wouldn’t want a few silly facts to ruin a good story, eh?

"Which bat makers told you that?" I will say I see them as some of the top seller of bats. I was suprise to hear it from them also, I want tell as I would not like to get them in any trouble. I ask the lady after talking with her sometime if she had a son going in to HS ball and need a new bat what kind of bat would she buy for her son to play HS ball bbcor or wood knowing what she know as a seller. She said I would be buy my son a wood bat.


"I just find it totally amazing that someone who manufactures bats would tell customers not to use their product." They did not tell me not to use there product, what was said I would use wood.

"Your kid sounds like he’s on his way to a bright baseball future. I’ve honestly never heard of a HS player using nothing but wood in the regular HS season games, and I’d be really interested in seeing his numbers compared to other players in his league. Can you say what league that is and where they post the league statistics so I can do some research?" I think he has some stuff on GameChanger from last year that his coach put in before we quit that team.

quote:

Originally posted by gindog:
I will say I see them as some of the top seller of bats. I was suprise to hear it from them also, I want tell as I would not like to get them in any trouble. I ask the lady after talking with her sometime if she had a son going in to HS ball and need a new bat what kind of bat would she buy for her son to play HS ball bbcor or wood knowing what she know as a seller. She said I would be buy my son a wood bat.

At the risk of sounding like I think women are baseball “challenged”, let me offer this. If you just called some number at some unnamed bat manufacturer, chances are you got an office worker or a sale’s person, rather than someone who might really know the numbers. But be that as it may, what reasons did she give?

quote:

They did not tell me not to use there product, what was said I would use wood.

There’s little difference. If they have a product that for a non-wood costs $60 for a low end model, and up to $300 for a top-of-the-line model, and their wood bats don’t get them the same net profit, they’re taking money out of their own pockets. That doesn’t sound like a company that wants to stay in business.

quote:

I think he has some stuff on GameChanger from last year that his coach put in before we quit that team.

Gamechanger is a scoring app that generates stats. I'm asking what league he was playing HS ball in.

I think you’ve gotten confused with all the talk about wood vs. BBCOR, and would be well advised to contact your boy’s HS coach, and discuss it with him. Good luck!

"At the risk of sounding like I think women are baseball “challenged”, let me offer this. If you just called some number at some unnamed bat manufacturer, chances are you got an office worker or a sale’s person, rather than someone who might really know the numbers. But be that as it may, what reasons did she give?"

I fill a little sorry for the lady of baseball now after them being “challenged”. It a good thing I did not say Easton, Louisville Slugger, DeMarini or some other bat munufacturer.

quote:

They did not tell me not to use there product, what was said I would use wood.

What bat do you recomend for him to use? bbcor and wood? He has been useing a DeMarini CF4 32-3 and a Louisville Slugger p72 wood 32-2.With DeMarini CF4 not being bbcor so I am having to get him a new bat. We are going to keep the wood bat as he like the way if hits.


My son is not in HS yet but he is playing in a SH fall league with his travel team. He 14 years old 150lb in 8th grade and love baseball. Just about every day he hits about 75 ball off tee, 75 or so out old mike. No I dont push him as he push his self to much I think but he said "if I going to be good then I have to do what other will not".He dose field work every other day with a old jugs with his little brother.


I stay confused

So what bat do you recomend for him in a bbcor?

quote:

Originally posted by gindog:
What bat do you recomend for him to use? bbcor and wood? He has been useing a DeMarini CF4 32-3 and a Louisville Slugger p72 wood 32-2.With DeMarini CF4 not being bbcor so I am having to get him a new bat. We are going to keep the wood bat as he like the way if hits.

My son is not in HS yet but he is playing in a SH fall league with his travel team. He 14 years old 150lb in 8th grade and love baseball. Just about every day he hits about 75 ball off tee, 75 or so out old mike. No I dont push him as he push his self to much I think but he said "if I going to be good then I have to do what other will not".He dose field work every other day with a old jugs with his little brother.

I stay confused

So what bat do you recomend for him in a bbcor?

Well, the added information has certainly given me a new perspective.

If I was having to make the decision for my son at that point in his life and given the current rules, I would totally ignore performance, and make sure he got a bat that he felt comfortable swinging, even if it was a $60 model. The reason is, BBCOR bats are all going to perform almost exactly like wood, so the only real difference is going to be in the feel of the bat to the player.

There just isn’t a lot of room for the manufacturers to make their bats outperform their competitors like there was before. So, they can paint them differently, and they can make them feel different by changing how the weight is distributed. The end result for all intents and purposes is, in scientific tests done by robots and machines, the difference in performance from one bat to the next isn’t going to be a whole lot. But, the same bat will likely perform very differently from one player to the next.

For instance, let’s say your son likes a skinny handled, end weighted bat, and his buddy likes a fat handle and more evenly distributed weight. If you force them both to use one bat or the other, chances are one of them isn’t gonna be real pleased, and that’s likely gonna affect performance.

And something else to keep in mind is, as he matures, its very likely his taste in bats will change as well, which is just another reason I see no sense in spending a lot of money on bats at this point in time.

You can help yourself and him a lot by learning how to “legally” manipulate the weight in a bat. That way he can get a much better idea of what to look for.

Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by gindog:
So what bat do you recomend for him in a bbcor?

This one:


2012 Rawlings Plasma BBCOR

http://www.justbats.com/produc...--bbcpla-adult/14497

Pros:
- Solid balanced bat, NOT end-weighted - Low Price - Good feel - Cool 'Tron-like' graphics and satin finish - decent 'ping' sound - gives the 5150 a run for its money
Cons:
- Grip. Peeled off after one session of hitting. Re-wrapped and taped over it, nice now.

I just watched two days of college practice/games this weekend and I'll tell you one thing I liked about the BBCOR...they sound more like wood.

Does anybody make a 35 inch BBCOR? Can't seem to find one.

Bat choice is personal to each hitter. On my 15U Travel team, I talked to all the parents. Told them about he BBCOR rules etc. Several of them got together and decided not to duplicate which bat they bought, so the kids could use each other's bat and get a feel for what they like.

Off the top of my head...we have a Rawlings 5150, TPX Z1000, an EXO, Omaha, and a couple of Voo Doo's.

I'll have some feedback on the Plasma, the one I grabbed for the kid should be here Tuesday. Can't beat less than $100 shipped. (look around google Bat Honcho or check Ebay).

From throwing BP, I can tell you that most all of them have plenty of pop. Some of them sound really ODD (not wood bat sound either...more like plastic if that makes sense) but the ball stills goes if hit on the sweet spot.

That a good ida of all getting different bats. My son has hit with the 5150 and like it and like it as he said it fill somewhat like his CF4. He hit with a LS p72 maple just about all the time.we been looking for the new marucci black witch I think it new and have not been out long.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
I just watched two days of college practice/games this weekend and I'll tell you one thing I liked about the BBCOR...they sound more like wood.

Now my son tells me they "test drove" some new TPX models for next year and they have that Ping sound back.

Took four swings, hit three out. I guess he likes them!

quote:

Took four swings, hit three out. I guess he likes them!

I guess so. BP and practice are sometimes a tad different then live pitching.

I've just witnessed three doubleheader scrimmages the past three weekends, all against JUCO's and a grand total of one long ball was hit!

Admittedly, PrimeJr's college field is big even by MLB standards; 403-center, 380-gaps and 335-lines.

Centered they go out but only with the true long ball guys. Big emphasis in our Fall work on small ball and hitting centered g-balls and line drives.