Ruling on a play

quote:

Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
I have a question on a play/situation from a fellow umpire.

Situation;

The field has a collapsible fence. Ball hit to the outfield, outfielder catches the ball at the base of the fence one foot on the ground and the other at the base of the fence (Not on the fence), after he catches the ball and has control of the ball, he turns to brace himself, the fence collapses he falls over the fence, hits the ground and then loses control of the ball.



A) Since he did not extend the field, you have an out catch and carry all runners move up one base?
B) Home Run ?
My answer was A since he had control of the ball before he turned to brace himself

Home run. No voluntary release of the ball, and if he was in the process of bracing himself, he did not regain control of his body (which would make it a catch per certain interpretations.)

quote:

Home run. No voluntary release of the ball, and if he was in the process of bracing himself, he did not regain control of his body (which would make it a catch per certain interpretations.)

Thanks Matt13 I do agree on the voluntary release ... I got that, but FED rule 2-9-1 also states "When the fielder, by his action of stopping, removing the ball from his glove, ect. signifies the initial action is completed and drops the ball, will be judged to have made the catch." So in this situation after he catches the ball, has control of the ball, turns to brace himself, falls over the fence and when he hits the ground and then loses the ball. Didn't he signify that the initial action had been completed?

Was there a voluntary release of the ball from his glove? If so, it's a catch, dead ball, and all runners advance a base; if not, it's a home run.

quote:

Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
Didn't he signify that the initial action had been completed?

Not the way I'm picturing it, no. Once he has control of his body, the initial action has stopped. Needing to brace himself shows lack of body control.

2-9-1's actions are relatively limited--stopping from a running catch, an intentional controlled change in direction, starting a run from a stop, etc. Simply doing any action does not suffice.

For discussion:
Based on the way I'm picturing this, it isn't a catch, but it isn't obviously a home run either. To be a home run, a fair batted ball needs to have gone over the fence in flight. In this instance, the fielder has gloved the ball short of the fence, and his momentum provided the impetus for the ball to go on into dead ball territory. So the status of the ball changed from batted to thrown, and the award becomes 2 bases TOT. If instead the fielder had deflected the ball over the fence, then it remains a batted ball, and it would be a home run.

I will comment that in real life, it is usually hard to tell if the fielder has provided the impetus, and normally if a fielder is moving toward the fence fast enough to crash though it, the ball was going out, and so the fielder hasn't provided the impetus. But the OP sounds different to me.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
In this instance, the fielder has gloved the ball short of the fence, and his momentum provided the impetus for the ball to go on into dead ball territory.

Wouldn't this be a catch then?

I think you either have to have a catch or a homerun on this one.

It's not a catch if he drops the ball. Impetus is not the same thing as voluntary release.

So what if another fielder manages to snag it out of the air? Are you ruling it is not a catch because the ball is no longer in flight?

Snag it out of the air? In this situation, the ball is in the first fielder's glove until he has entered dead ball territory. If at that point, some other fielder is is in dead ball territory with him and snags the ball when the 1st fielder drops it, it isn't a catch, of course.

Or are you raising a different situation in which the 1st fielder gains partial control of the ball (so it isn't a deflection), and then somehow knocks it to another fielder? Yes, that's a catch, assuming the ball stays in live territory.

The rules regarding a catch aren't the same as the ones regarding an award of bases.

Ruling from our State Interpreter is catch and carry award all runners one base.

quote:

Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
Ruling from our State Interpreter is catch and carry award all runners one base.

It's not "catch and carry" if he ends up droppping it.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
Snag it out of the air? In this situation, the ball is in the first fielder's glove until he has entered dead ball territory.

My apologies, I misread the original post slightly.

That said, by rule I still have the ball being in flight. The only thing the ball touched was the fielder and as you know a ball in flight that goes over the fence is a homerun.

Your statment regarding impetus unfortunately has no rule support otherwise a fly ball deflected over the fence by a fielder in fair territory would not be a home run.

quote:

Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
Ruling from our State Interpreter is catch and carry award all runners one base.

He's wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Welpe:
Your statment regarding impetus unfortunately has no rule support otherwise a fly ball deflected over the fence by a fielder in fair territory would not be a home run.

FED rules (casebook actually) make a distinction between impetus from a fielder versus deflection, although the casebook plays involve impetus or deflection on balls which are not in flight. See 8.3.3j and 8.3.3k.

Regarding the main question, NCAA and OBR differ.
MLBUM 5.8 provides that a ball deflected over the fence is a home run, but If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and drops the ball while he is out of play, or if the fielder drops such a ball and it then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was dropped. Bolded as in the original text in the MLBUM. I'm not going to type in the whole text, but some rulings in this section distinguish between balls which go out of play over fair territory versus one which go out over foul territory. The above quoted rule encompasses both, IMO.

NCAA states directly If a fair ball is dropped outside the fence, it becomes a home run.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
FED rules (casebook actually) make a distinction between impetus from a fielder versus deflection, although the casebook plays involve impetus or deflection on balls which are not in flight. See 8.3.3j and 8.3.3k.

Those case plays would be identical in OBR.

So, is it a catch? I say no, based on what I envisioned above. He has not indicated that the initial action is over, and thus the catch is not completed (2-9-1).

Working on that premise, then what is the status of the ball? Per 2-6-1, it is still in flight (it is a batted ball that has not touched anything other than a fielder.) Thus, the ball passed over the fence in flight, and is a home run per 8-3-3a.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
Regarding the main question, NCAA and OBR differ.
MLBUM 5.8 provides that a ball deflected over the fence is a home run, but If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and drops the ball while he is out of play, or if the fielder drops such a ball and it then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was dropped. Bolded as in the original text in the MLBUM. I'm not going to type in the whole text, but some rulings in this section distinguish between balls which go out of play over fair territory versus one which go out over foul territory. The above quoted rule encompasses both, IMO.

Per 2.00 Catch, he does not have complete possession, again based on my visualization of the play.

Talked to the two umpires involved in the play last night at our meeting. I got a different view of the play talking to them directly, the play happened simultaneously ball caught in the field of play with one foot, turn to fence, go through fence, drop ball. No catch Homerun.