Rundown / Baseline

I see your confusion. The three feet that you mention is static. It is measured toward the infield and toward the outfield (or foul territory in case of HP to 1B and 3B to HP) centerlined from base to base.

Are you saying the chalk line between home and third is the baseline the runner has to stay in and he has 3 feet to either side of this line?

If that is what you are saying then you are wrong. The "baseline" is not the straight lines between the bases and plate. It is the path established by the runner towards the next base. From this line now created by the runner he has three feet to either side. This is all umpire judgement.

Using your example then you really never have to tag a runner out. This about this - hitter nails one to the gap and he is thinking triple. He rounds second and realizes he cannot make it and tries to go back. The defense throws behind the runner and he is waiting for him. Now since the runner made a huge turn around second he is about 15 feet away from the line directly between each base. So as he comes back to the bag he is getting closer to that line but he will never be inside of it again. Based on what you said he is out of the baseline and the three foot area. So when he comes back to second all the defense has to do is make the attempt at the tag and the runner is out of the line.

Sorry but you are wrong. I'm going to wait for Michael Taylor, PIAA ump, Dash Riprock or another one of the other established umpires to answer my question.

Coach - Your understanding is basically accurate. NCAA and OBR are explicit in defining the runner's baseline (and the reference for the "more than 3 feet to avoid a tag" rule) as being the line between where the runner is when the tag attempt is made, and the base toward which he is advancing. Thus, when the runner turns and heads toward a different base (and a tag attempt is made) he establishes a new baseline and a new reference.

FED is apparently contradictory. The rule (8-4-2-a) initially states that the runner is out if he runs more than 3 feet away from a direct line between bases to avoid being tagged. But it then goes on to clarify that when a play is being made on the runner (e.g., a tag attempt), he establishes his baseline as directly between his position and the base toward which he is advancing (same as OBR & NCAA). FED butchered the English (as usual), but the interpretations are the same.

Your situation is a HTBT, but if there is a tag attempt on the runner as he makes his "wide" turn, I think he is probably out of the baseline.

Thank you for your kind words. The great majority of posters are here to contribute, to stimulate a meaningful discussion and to learn from others, including their mistakes (we all make them). Unfortunately, there are some who have nothing to contribute - they are here because they have issues, and seek to ruin it for everyone else. It's not hard to tell who they are. The best way to get rid of them is to completely ignore every word they have to say. Resist the urge to respond - I know it can be great, but that is what they want. Just click on "hide post" whenever you see his name.

Thanks for a good post Coach. That situation happens all the time.

As Dash says the line is established when the runner is in a tag situation. In a rundown each time he reverses he creates a new baseline.
I had an argument in a college game where the pitcher overran the play and missed the tag. The manager wanted him to be out for being out of the baseline. They ran him back and forth four or five times. By the time tie play was over he was on the infield grass by a step or so. I explained that by running him back and forth they moved him a little closer each time but he never made a move to avoid a tag that exceeded the three foot limit. He didn't like it but accepted it.

Thanks guys - MST you described it better than I did. He never avoided the tag when he made his change in direction but ended up rounding his turn.

I can see how that is the correct ruling but I guess I didn't like it since my guys messed up the rundown.

Guess what we are working on in practice today....

I have a question kind of along the same lines..

You've said the "baseline" is a direct path from where the runner starts to the base, correct? So why then is a batter out on say a bunt if he is in just inside fair territory? If you think about it, a right-handed batter the direct path from the batter's box to 1st base puts him in fair territory. Is he expected to side-step across the plate before he takes off to first?!?!

I realize it's going to be different if the runner is trying to get hit with the ball. That's easy-- out. But if he's just running down the line how can he be at fault?

Bulldog,

We've been talking in this thread about a general rule involving the runner's baseline.

There is an additional special rule that only applies to the batter/runner, and which makes use of the running lane--the second white line you'll see chalked on the field parallel to and separated by 3 feet from the first base foul line. The rule is similar in all codes, but here is the NFHS rule:

8.4.1g. he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base), while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base;
1. This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act does not interfere with a fielder or a throw.
2. The batter runner is considered outside the running lane lines if either foot is outside either line.

You can see the rule is only in effect for the last 45 feet, and B/R has to have actually interfered to be called out.

If you go to the old skunk the outfield play where with a runner on first and third the runner on first gets his lead in right field. He has to progressively move his baseline each time he changes a run. The baseline moves with the runner in a direct line with the base he is going so he slowly moves it to the infield with each turn. The same can be done away from the infield but it takes a lot of work. He can move it away from the infield 3 feet each turn and still be legal.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Are you saying the chalk line between home and third is the baseline the runner has to stay in and he has 3 feet to either side of this line?

No.

quote:

If that is what you are saying then you are wrong. The "baseline" is not the straight lines between the bases and plate. It is the path established by the runner towards the next base. From this line now created by the runner he has three feet to either side. This is all umpire judgement.

Imagine that.

quote:

Using your example...

The example I gave was pertinent ot the question sked as per the static ruling as I suggested. if you had read with understanding instead of flying off the handle like a wild Muppet on crack, you could have saved all of us your endless diatribe of total BS.

quote:

This about this - hitter nails one to the gap and he is thinking triple. He rounds second and realizes he cannot make it and tries to go back. The defense throws behind the runner and he is waiting for him. Now since the runner made a huge turn around second he is about 15 feet away from the line directly between each base. So as he comes back to the bag he is getting closer to that line but he will never be inside of it again.

Perhaps, perhaps he will but it is your story so blither on...

quote:

Based on what you said he is out of the baseline and the three foot area.

It's your player, I didn't put him out of the baseline and the static run lane, you did.

quote:

I'm going to wait for Michael Taylor, PIAA ump, Dash Riprock or another one of the other established umpires to answer my question.

As you wish. I am much younger than they are, granted, all older fogies should stick together.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Ok I know the baseline is the line established by the runner going into the base.

Wrong, the line is established the moment the INF determines to attempt a tag, R may very well not be going into the base at all. He could be standing doing nothing.[/quote]

quote:

Then he has three feet to each side of this line in order to avoid a tag. Tonight we had a rundown and we executed about as poorly as you could execute one.

Simply poor coaching. No excuse.

quote:

We had about 4 throws

About? Was it 4, or 6 or 8, good coaches know exactly.

quote:

...and then we missed the tag and the guy was safe. Now it looked like he went out of the baseline to avoid the tag and I went out to get the explanation.

No, you went out to argue the call without knowing the rules in the first place. My bet is you are lucky you didn't get tossed. Learn the rules first, don't expect umpires during precious game time to explain them to you especially when you are P.O.ed that your team made you look bad.

quote:

On each turn the runner moved farther towards the outfield. He would round his turn instead of a plant and turn. So the line he established on the first throw was totally different than the line he established on the last throw - hope that makes sense.

Little, blither on....

quote:

Now the umpire said in his opinion that he didn't get out of the baseline because he established that line as his. So I asked does the runner establish a new baseline each time he changes direction because he is basically avoiding a tag and the umpire said he was.

My response would have been, "Coach off the field, rules lessons are for post and pre-game.

quote:

So - <snipped aforementioned lack of rules knowledge>.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
The great majority of posters are here to contribute, to stimulate a meaningful discussion and to learn from others, including their mistakes (we all make them).

Yes, RipOffRock, we all do, some by leaps more than others.

quote:

Unfortunately, there are some who have nothing to contribute - they are here because they have issues, and seek to ruin it for everyone else. It's not hard to tell who they are. The best way to get rid of them is to completely ignore every word they have to say. Resist the urge to respond - I know it can be great, but that is what they want. Just click on "hide post" whenever you see his name.

I think Taylor is a fine poster, you, OTOH, pffft.