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9 replies

runner called out did not leave base

M moondogMember
No outs, bases loaded, ball hit to short. Runner on third scores. Runner on 1st is forced at second (called out by ump). Runner on second advances to third. Second-baseman throws to first to attempt double-play, and runner now on third scores as throw slightly gets away from first-baseman. Runner who was called out at second advances to third on overthrow, claiming later that he didn't know he was called out (umpires didn't notice that he didn't leave the field after being called out). Batter-runner remains at first, so plays ends with runners on first & third with one out recorded. Inning continues with defensive team & coach thinking that the runner on third was originally the runner on second that did not score on slight overthrow to first (in the confusion of the play they did not see the runner originally on second score on overthrow to first). Two outs are recorded in a row with no runners advancing, and inning ends. Defensive team says one run scored, offensive team says two runs scored. Offensive team's parents and coach admit later that they knew the runner on third was called out and shouldn't have been there, and they intentionally said nothing (hoping of course that he would score).

Umpires review scorebooks of both teams, and end up siding with the home-team scorebook (the defensive team during the confusing play). Was this right? What should have happened?
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Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
If I follow this correctly:

2 runs should be scored.

Last batter, who apparently was put out anyway, should be nullified, and he should lead off the next inning.

Improper runner could be subjected to an additional out if he interfered with normal play in any way, but it looks like that never happened, so it's a moot point.

Offensive team's coach might be subject to ejection for unsportsmanlike conduct if it were believed, or if he admitted, that he knew the true state of affairs but left the runner out there anyway. But I doubt the umpires would be able to prove it sufficiently if he did not admit it, and I doubt they would otherwise go so far as to eject him -- probably too busy wiping egg off their faces.
M moondogMember
Two runs DID score, but the whole issue with this incident is that the defensive team only recorded ONE run scoring, since the play in question started with bases loaded and ended with runners on 1st & 3rd (the runner on 3rd being the one that was forced out at 2nd but continued to advance). In the confusion, they did not see the second run score on the slight overthrow, and the offensive team was left with either admitting that they cheated (by knowingly allowing the illegal runner to remain) OR saying that only one run scored. The point is that by cheating, they actually CAUSED a situation whereby the defensive team could successfully argue that only one run scored.

I couldn't find a rule that applied to this, but I certainly feel like the offensive team got what they deserved (i.e. the umps ruled that only one run scored) by allowing the runner to stay on base illegally in the hopes that he too would score. Do you agree?
EH Emanski's Heroes1,000+ posts
Wouldn't a good ole cup ball/kick ball "do over" come in handy in a situation like this?

I can't agree that the offensive team got what they deserved, because they did actually score two runs and it doesn't necessarily seem obvious to me that the offensive team would have thought they were cheating. Maybe they thought the runner was ruled safe? Only they know the truth.
M moondogMember
To whoever felt that the offensive team maybe didn't know they were cheating: they DID. The 3rd-base coach asked the runner why he was on 3rd when the ump called him out at 2nd (he admitted this in the discussion that ensued), and a parent on the offensive team admitted after the game that they all knew he shouldn't have been at 3rd (but they and the coach were apparently were willing to overlook it since it gave them a "free" man on 3rd with just one out).

As for figuring out that the runner on 2nd MUST HAVE have scored by reconstructing the inning from the scorebook: this was tried. But again, remember that the play started with bases loaded and ended with runners standing on 1st & 3rd, with an obvious force out occurring at 2nd. With the overthrow to 1st being only a slight one, it was not unreasonable to figure that the original runner on 2nd couldn't have scored, thus leaving him at 3rd and the batter-runner at 1st.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by moondog:
To whoever felt that the offensive team maybe didn't know they were cheating: they DID. The 3rd-base coach asked the runner why he was on 3rd when the ump called him out at 2nd (he admitted this in the discussion that ensued), and a parent on the offensive team admitted after the game that they all knew he shouldn't have been at 3rd (but they and the coach were apparently were willing to overlook it since it gave them a "free" man on 3rd with just one out).

This is why they are called RATS.

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