Runner leaving early on a fly ball, please explain.

The catcher could throw the ball to third and have the fielder appeal the missed base. The pitcher does not have to initiate the appeal.

Every time I have seen it, the umpires have said the pitcher has to ask for the appeal.

I believe I remember something about a new rule last year where you could immediately appeal a missed base or leaving early without having the pitcher initiate the appeal. I could be wrong, or it could be just for missed bases.

The way I understand the NFHS rule if the ball has remained live then any player may ask for the appeal by touching the base or tagging the player. If the ball has become dead then you have to step on the mound and then step off to ask for the appeal.

The guys who know the real answer will give the definitive answer pretty soon though.

First of all, the play at 3rd is not a force. It is a base left early. Therefore, an appeal must be made to record the out.

The appeal does not have to be initiated by the pitcher in any code. However, in all codes except FED, the appeal must be made while the ball is live. If the ball has become dead, the pitcher must be on the rubber with the ball before it can be made live by the umpire. There is no other way for the ball to become live.

In FED, any coach or player can initiate a dead ball appeal, with or without the ball. With the ball dead, a verbal "he left too early" gets you the out.

In NFHS, it is never necessary to involve the pitcher in an appeal. (In all other codes, if the ball is dead, it is necessary to have the pitcher toe the rubber with the ball to make it live.)
NFHS allows verbal appeals while the ball is dead.

"PENALTY (ART. 1-5): For failure to touch a base (advancing and returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team. The defense may appeal during a live ball immediately following the play and before a pitch (legal or illegal), granting an intentional base on balls, or before the next play or attempted play. If the offensive team initiates a play before the next pitch, the defensive team does not lose the right to appeal. A live-ball appeal may be made by a defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early. A dead-ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too early. Appeals must be made (1) before the next legal or illegal pitch; (2) at the end of an inning, before the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory; (3) before an intentional base on balls is granted; or (4) on the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpires leave the field of play.
NOTE: When a play by its very nature is imminent and is obvious to the offense, defense and umpire(s), no verbal appeal is necessary, e.g. runner attempting to retouch a base that was missed, or a failure to tag up and a throw has been made to that base or plate while a play is in progress."

FED allows the dead ball appeal. In the OP if after the play at the plate, an umpire had granted time. Anyone associated with the defense could simply ask/state "R3 left 3B early" and have the appeal upheld.

OBR based disciplines require the ball to be live for an appeal. It just so happens that a ball is not put back into play, until F1, F2 and the batter are in their spots (the batter is not required). This is coincidental and makes it appear F1 must be the one to inititate the appeal, but in no way shape or form is F1 required to initiate the appeal.

In any discipline in the OP with the ball live F2 could simply 1. tag the runner and request the appeal. 2. Run the ball to and tag 3B and request the appeal 3. Throw down to F5 who could touch the base and request. Or return the ball to F1, who would also have all those options, though tagging the runner would be a stretch, but he could..

Example: R1 running on the pitch, no out. Batter hits a line drive to F3 who steps on 1st to double R1. This is a valid live-ball appeal initiated by someone other than the pitcher.

As others have said it is not necessary for the pitcher to do it unless the ball is dead. In HS even that isn't true. Dash makes the example of the play at first that we see all the time. The OP is the same play just at third.
Unfortunately many umpires and coaches get this wrong and perpetuates the myth.

quote:

Originally posted by OA5II:
If I have a runner on 3rd and I hit a ball to the outfield which is caught for the 2nd out and my runner on 3rd leaves early. the defense makes a throw to the plate but my runner gets to the plate first, why couldn't the catcher throw the ball to 3rd for the force out? Why does the pitcher have to appeal?

I have always been curious of this?

Thanks again for your knowledge.

It's been said before, but by the numbers:

1. This is not a force out. It is an appeal. That is not mere semantics. This is not mere semantics, there is world of difference between the two and how they can affect runs scoring.

2. A live ball appeal can be made by any player. It does not have to start with the pitcher.

3. When the ball is dead, action by the pitcher is required by rule, before it can be put in play.

4. In FED there is a dead ball appeal. The pitcher does not have to risk a balk by doing the appeal incorrectly.

In this situation is the ball still live after r3 beats the tag and no other runners on base?

another question: say there were no outs, runners at 1b and 3b when the play occurred and R1 retreats back safley, tags and takes off. if the defense first makes a play on him can they after that still appeal r3 leaving early or not?

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
another question: say there were no outs, runners at 1b and 3b when the play occurred and R1 retreats back safley, tags and takes off. if the defense first makes a play on him can they after that still appeal r3 leaving early or not?

FED & NCAA yes (because the play was initiated by the offense). OBR no. Good question.

As long as it is continous action the appeal would still be allowed.

Ex: R3, R1, F9 makes the catch (1 out), see's the now retagged R1 heading for 2nd and throws him out (2outs), the defense can still appeal R3 leaving early, 3 outs.

quote:

In this situation is the ball still live after r3 beats the tag and no other runners on base?

Yes, the ball remains live until you hear the call of time or all players have left fair territory.

jj is correct re: continuing action. The appeal would be allowed in all codes. If the continuing action had ceased, a subsequent play would eliminate the D's opportunity for any appeal under OBR.

The classic example is R3, R2, 1 out. Both runners tag on a fly ball (R3 scores, R2 to 3rd), but R3 leaves early. R2 (now at 3rd) sees the defense will appeal and breaks for home where he is thrown out by a mile for the 3rd out. However, the D has lost it's right to appeal, and R3's run counts. Had the D ignored R2 and just appealed R3, the run would come off.

Thanks jj.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
jj is correct re: continuing action. The appeal would be allowed in all codes. If the continuing action had ceased, a subsequent play would eliminate the D's opportunity for any appeal under OBR.

The classic example is R3, R2, 1 out. Both runners tag on a fly ball (R3 scores, R2 to 3rd), but R3 leaves early. R2 (now at 3rd) sees the defense will appeal and breaks for home where he is thrown out by a mile for the 3rd out. However, the D has lost it's right to appeal, and R3's run counts. Had the D ignored R2 and just appealed R3, the run would come off.

Thanks jj.

I would love to see this in a Major league game where R3 was a winning run situation. Both teams would be taking a huge risk that the umpire saw R3 leave early and will agree to appeal. It would be a heads up and ballsy move by R3's team.

Ignoring the runner coming home and making appeal play would be just about impossible for the defense. Unless everyone in the stadium saw original R3 leave early. Still tough though.

quote:

Originally posted by cball:Both teams would be taking a huge risk that the umpire saw R3 leave early and will agree to appeal.

A major league umpire is not going to miss that one. The D is not going to miss it either. There is always someone on the bench whose job is to watch for the runner leaving early.

quote:

Originally posted by cball:

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
jj is correct re: continuing action. The appeal would be allowed in all codes. If the continuing action had ceased, a subsequent play would eliminate the D's opportunity for any appeal under OBR.

The classic example is R3, R2, 1 out. Both runners tag on a fly ball (R3 scores, R2 to 3rd), but R3 leaves early. R2 (now at 3rd) sees the defense will appeal and breaks for home where he is thrown out by a mile for the 3rd out. However, the D has lost it's right to appeal, and R3's run counts. Had the D ignored R2 and just appealed R3, the run would come off.

Thanks jj.

I would love to see this in a Major league game where R3 was a winning run situation. Both teams would be taking a huge risk that the umpire saw R3 leave early and will agree to appeal. It would be a heads up and ballsy move by R3's team.

Ignoring the runner coming home and making appeal play would be just about impossible for the defense. Unless everyone in the stadium saw original R3 leave early. Still tough though.

I had it happen in a college game once. The manager was screaming that the R1 who went first to third missed second. He wanted the pitcher to appeal second, so he stepped off and threw to second. When he did, the runner, now on third, took off. Now in college if the offense initiates the play they can play on the runner and go back and get the appeal. Nobody seemed to kn oow this so F4 is standing there trying to decide whether to tag the base or play on the dead duck going to the plate. The screaming manager won, he appealed and I called him safe. Thought the manager was going to stroke.
Now even if he didn't know the rule, he should have thrown it to third and tagged the runner and he would have never have tried to advance.