Runner misses first, hope this isn't a dumb question

Safe on the initial play. An appeal would have to be made on the miss.

Once he's back to the bag, he's safe.

Not a dumb question at all and CB is bang on with his response. The BU will show safe and then wait for an appeal or the runner to return.
If the runner is quickly trying to return, it will have to be a tag appeal. If the runner is just walking back then F3 can just touch the base and announce he is appealing.

Appeal what? If he never touched the base, then when the first baseman touched the bag he is out. The BU had to have said he touched the bag. There can not be an appeal on a judgment call and whether he touched the bag or not is a judgment call.
We had one last night where there was a throw that brought the first baseman off the bag, he touched first with the ball before the runner got there and then threw to third to try and get an advancing runner. The coach asked if he touched the bag and the BU said safe. There is nothing to appeal there either.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Appeal what? If he never touched the base, then when the first baseman touched the bag he is out.

Jeff, I have to assume you are not an umpire and have not received any training.

Reaching first, and missing the bag, prior to the ball reaching F3 becomes an appeal play, in all codes, just like missing any other base. There is nothing new about this.

Yes I am but again what is there to appeal from what is written. The first baseman caught the ball with his foot on the base. The runner did not touch first. When he catches the ball, the batter/runner is out. There is nothing to appeal.

The batter/runner running by first does not constitute touching it so the out is there on the initial call because he did not touch first. You do not have to appeal.

Any force play involves timing. If you slide by second without touching it trying to break up a double play and the fielder touches second before you return, you are out. There is no appeal.

Jeff:
Wrong on both counts. Passing a base is the same as touching for the purposes of safe or out. If he passes first before the ball gets there then it is an appeal play.
Your play at second is a tag play. There is a concept called relaxed/unrelaxed play. If he is in the vicinity and trying to return, it is a tag play. If he had gone by second and went to third, a touch of the base is all that is needed.
Think about a missed touch of home. If the runner doesn't touch and doesn't fix it then two things can happen. The defense can appeal or the run counts. It counts because absent an appeal the runner is considered top have touched it.

Jeff, first base is treated differently then any other base in this situation. At first base we would give a safe call when the runner "passes" the base.

At home, for example, if the runner does not touch the plate, we give no safe signal. It can be confusing until you study the rules and mechanics.

I know it seems like the runner would be out, since he did not actually touch first base, but he's not until the appeal.

BTW, we were up in Johnson City last summer for the USSSA World Series. You live in a beautiful part of the country.

On the play at home, it would be out if they touched the bag if it was a force. If not I will agree it has to be appealed. But we are not talking missing a bag and nothing being done. We are talking tagging the base before the runner touches the base.

I would argue that the touching the bag with the ball on what was a force play would be in essence an appeal in fed.

1. The runner reached first priot to the ball. It's an appeal play.

2. The out at first by B/R, by definition is not a force. See OBR 2.00 Force Play

3. The accidental appeal if FED is dead. The fielder needs to make sure the umpire is alerted to his attention to appeal, verbally or physically.

I was talking fed the entire time. As an umpire, you have to assume appeal is being made.

1, That doesn't change the fact that the out at first is not a force.

2. If the fielders action is separate from his action at the time the ball arrives, it will be recognized as an appeal. If he simply makes contact when the ball arrives after the runner passes the base, no such assumption should be made.

Jeff, you can disagree all you want, but that doesnt change the fact that Micheal and CB are correct under Fed rules.
I believe years ago, the official would immediately rule on a missed base, but now the defense has to appeal.
Some associations think that when the BR beats the throw, but misses the bag- then the ump should not do anything, but this actually tips off the defense- which is an unfair advantage,....hence Fed's ruling of giving the "safe" signal and then wait for a possible appeal.

Let me see if I understand, runner misses first, appeal must be made, right? What if the runner misses first, he's called safe because he beat the throw, he returns to 1st, defensive coaches yells at his 1st baseman, "tag him he missed the base".

Is that considered a good appeal, or does the appeal have to be made in the form of the coach telling the umpire " I'm appealing the runner missing first"?

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
Let me see if I understand, runner misses first, appeal must be made, right? What if the runner misses first, he's called safe because he beat the throw, he returns to 1st, defensive coaches yells at his 1st baseman, "tag him he missed the base".

If the runner returns to first, it's too late to appeal.

That's what I thought, I was wondering how the heck you would appeal a guy for missing a base that he's on????

So it's a live ball appeal, I guess my quesiton should be does some sort of verbal request to appeal need to be made, or can you just walk over and tag the runner before he returns to the base?

Or can you just touch first again, even though you've already touched it and say, "runner missed first" to the blue?

Our league defaults to MLB rules for any thing not covered in our rules. So in the MLB, would the umpire not make any call and let things play out, or would he give the safe sign and wait on the appeal?

quote:

So it's a live ball appeal, I guess my quesiton should be does some sort of verbal request to appeal need to be made, or can you just walk over and tag the runner before he returns to the base?

Or can you just touch first again, even though you've already touched it and say, "runner missed first" to the blue?

F3 just needs to get the umpire's attention, verbally or by demonstration, and make a tag of the runner or the base before the runner gets back.

Same procedure in MLB (OBR): signal safe and be ready for the appeal.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

So it's a live ball appeal, I guess my quesiton should be does some sort of verbal request to appeal need to be made, or can you just walk over and tag the runner before he returns to the base?

Or can you just touch first again, even though you've already touched it and say, "runner missed first" to the blue?

F3 just needs to get the umpire's attention, verbally or by demonstration, and make a tag of the runner or the base before the runner gets back.

Same procedure in MLB (OBR): signal safe and be ready for the appeal.

I don't like this ruling. If a runner misses a base and the umpire sees it, why does an appeal need to be made? Runner misses 2nd and is tagged after he reaches 3rd why does an appeal need to be made? I mean if the fielder misses 1st base and the umpire sees it, he doesn't call an out, and wait for the offense to appeal the fielder missing the base. If the fielder misses the tag, the umpire doesn't call out and wait for an appeal.

Maybe someone can explain the benefit of this rule or the reasoning behind it.

It's treated as a baserunning error not a safe/out call. The defense gets the same consideration should they miss a tag when the runner misses the bag. The defense gets another shot at the runner.

In the bad old days, under FED, the umpires would call an out if they saw the infraction. At the time the philosophy was that in no other sport did an official ignore a violation of the rules, (yeah, sure), so call the out. However, common sense prevailed and the rule was changed to be in line with all other codes so that umpires could stop doing the defenses job for them.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
It's treated as a baserunning error not a safe/out call. The defense gets the same consideration should they miss a tag when the runner misses the bag. The defense gets another shot at the runner.

In the bad old days, under FED, the umpires would call an out if they saw the infraction. At the time the philosophy was that in no other sport did an official ignore a violation of the rules, (yeah, sure), so call the out. However, common sense prevailed and the rule was changed to be in line with all other codes so that umpires could stop doing the defenses job for them.

I don't look at it as the umpire doing the defenses job for them, guy missed 2nd, you tagged him at 3rd, he should be out, he never safely reached the previous base, no safe call was made, he just missed the base. Oh well, it is what it is, thanks for the help.

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
It's treated as a baserunning error not a safe/out call. The defense gets the same consideration should they miss a tag when the runner misses the bag. The defense gets another shot at the runner.

In the bad old days, under FED, the umpires would call an out if they saw the infraction. At the time the philosophy was that in no other sport did an official ignore a violation of the rules, (yeah, sure), so call the out. However, common sense prevailed and the rule was changed to be in line with all other codes so that umpires could stop doing the defenses job for them.

I don't look at it as the umpire doing the defenses job for them, guy missed 2nd, you tagged him at 3rd, he should be out, he never safely reached the previous base, no safe call was made, he just missed the base. Oh well, it is what it is, thanks for the help.

padner, I'm with you. It is just this kind of inanity that marks many Fed rules as, uh, inane.

I will try to explain the difference in the calls and appeals.
Anytime there is a force,at first or home,and the base is missed the umpire will show a safe sign. At that point if the runner isn't making an active attempt to retouch the base, then the fielder just needs to touch the base and let the ump know he is appealling the miss. If the runner is trying to retouch then the fielder needs to tag the runner. This the difference between relaxed and unrelaxed play. If a runner passes second or third and advances to the next base and play relaxes then the defense may appeal at that time. In Fed the players may make a live ball request without an actual play. The coach may make a dead ball request.

Now if you are going to make an actual play on a base then it may be done a couple of ways. First is a live action appeal. This is where the runner is trying to return and the ball is thrown to the base. If the runner has advanced and isn't trying to return, this considered a relaxed play. At this point the ball may thrown to the base where the runner is standing or the ball can be thrown to the missed base. Either tag the runner in the former or tag the base in the latter. This whole paragraph applies to all codes.
If the missed base is not a force then no call is made or shown. The is mostly relevant at home because this is the only nonforce base that you can legally overrun.
The big thing to remember is passing a base is the same as touching it absent an appeal. I know this doesn't set well with many of the coaches but that is the way it is.

quote:

Originally posted by The All Knowing Garth:
padner, I'm with you. It is just this kind of inanity that marks many Fed rules as, uh, inane.

FED? What we're discussing is the same in FED, OBR, NCAA, NAIA...

yes