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Running after Out

B beltechcMember
What is the ruling in high school if a runner who has been called out continues to participate - advancing a base. This could cause confusion in the infield if they attempt to make a play on him and another base runner advances.

I see this in two situations. The first would be a dropped third strike with a runner on first and less then two outs. If the batter-runner advances, it may cause the defense to throw to first even though he has been called out.

The second might be a caught fly ball to the outfield where the batter runner advances to second or even on to third to draw the throw.

I see where the defense could be at fault since they should know the situation but it also seems like it is some sort of diception by the offensive player which is the same concept as a balk by the pitcher.

Could you give me the rule if it is specifically addressed in the rule book.
Last edited {1}
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T TarheelUmp10+ posts
In your first situation I say it is the defense's responsibility to know the situation.

Your second situation is sort of a HTBT (had to be there). If I feel he is doing it intentionally to draw a throw (and more than just rounding 1st hard) and actually running to 2nd, I'd probably have interference. But on situations where a catch may be in doubt or they don't hear the umpire call the out, then I've likely got nothing.
Last edited by TarheelUmp
N NJUmp10+ posts
This is a bush league ( i know) play bad coaches use to draw throws, the ump has to watch the game and make loud calls, I already had this happen this year, with a 12U Pony girls team, I made the out call at first and heard the coach tell the runner t run to third, the defense got the out at home, the 3rd so the int didnt matter but I did tell the coach not to pull his **** with me on the field.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NIC15:
I know I have taught my guys when they fly out, with a runner on base to round the bag hard thus possibly causing an errant throw from the outfielder. There is nothing wrong with doing this.


There is something wrong with it - it's bush league. Teach your kids to play it the right way.
NIC15NIC15100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
quote:
Originally posted by NIC15:
I know I have taught my guys when they fly out, with a runner on base to round the bag hard thus possibly causing an errant throw from the outfielder. There is nothing wrong with doing this.


There is something wrong with it - it's bush league. Teach your kids to play it the right way.



Well the last thing I want to do is be BUSH League.. Seeing as how I do not teach players the right way. And that telling a guy to bust hard out of the box and round the bag hard is wrong. Please tell me the proper way to teach a kid.

But let me ask you, is a LHP with a great balk move BUSH League? In a 1st and 3rd situation with the runner going is having an infielder crash and glove deeke the runner BUSH league?

So would the advice be to tell my hitters "Bust hard out of the box, however if you anticipate the fly ball being caught, slow down so you do not pass the runner on first base, possibly making the outfielder throw the ball, because that would be BUSH League"

Is this safe to say?
N NJUmp10+ posts
No one is saying that, when he is clearly out at first, and you have him continue on to 2nd to draw a throw, thats bush league, and if by glove deeke, you mean fake a tag then in High School that would be obstruction and the runner would advance 1 base. A lefthanded pitcher with a great balk move is balking and it should be called.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
NIC15

Maybe I'm not understanding what you teach. Here is the breakdown of what I'm getting out of what you put and correct me if any of it's wrong.

If the hitter hits a flyball and he's busting it down the line and takes an aggresive turn of around 25 feet - that is good coaching.

Same situation but the hitter passes the runner after a flyball is caught with the intent to cause an errant throw - this is bush league.

Granted the defense should know what's going on and keep up with everything but overall it's just wrong. Now if you're teaching the first one then I compliment you but if it's the second one then it's bush league. You can call it whatever you like but it's bush league.

A LHP with a balk move is a balk. It should be called and if you teach a LHP to use a balk move then what do you do if he gets a crew that actually does call it? He's now got to make an adjustment. But if you work on both moves in practice then you have wasted time teaching an illegal move when you could have been working on something that is beneficial.

On the 1st / 3rd if your talking about (let's say) the 2B flashing in front for a possible cut of the throw from the catcher to nail the runner at third then let's look at it this way

If it's the flash guy deeking the cut then it's great coaching because you probably freeze the runner at third and keep runner from scoring

But if the flash guy does cut the throw and the guy covering the bag fakes a tag then that's bush league and as NJUmp said it's illegal.

quote:
"Bust hard out of the box, however if you anticipate the fly ball being caught, slow down so you do not pass the runner on first base, possibly making the outfielder throw the ball, because that would be BUSH League"


If I'm not mistaken if the batter passes the runner and the ball is dropped / not caught then the batter is out for passing the runner. How smart would a coach look if this happened?

Like I said if you're not teaching the bush league moves I described above then I apologize for misunderstanding what you put. I read it wrong and I commend you for teaching your guys to hustle. But if it's the other stuff then I still call it bush league.

A dog walking down the street does number two on the street. You got a pile of dog doodoo. You take the pile of dog doodoo and put whip cream on it and what do you have? You still got a pile of dog doodoo no matter how you dress it up.

I know it sounds like I'm trying to pick a fight but I'm not. I could be mistaken in what I read but if not then it's bush league.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NIC15:

Well the last thing I want to do is be BUSH League.. Seeing as how I do not teach players the right way. And that telling a guy to bust hard out of the box and round the bag hard is wrong. Please tell me the proper way to teach a kid.

But let me ask you, is a LHP with a great balk move BUSH League?


Yep. He's being taught to cheat instead of mastering a good, legitimate pickoff move.

quote:
In a 1st and 3rd situation with the runner going is having an infielder crash and glove deeke the runner BUSH league?


Could be...depends on how the deke is excuted. Could also be illegal in high school ball.
NIC15NIC15100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
NIC15

Maybe I'm not understanding what you teach. Here is the breakdown of what I'm getting out of what you put and correct me if any of it's wrong.

If the hitter hits a flyball and he's busting it down the line and takes an aggresive turn of around 25 feet - that is good coaching.

Same situation but the hitter passes the runner after a flyball is caught with the intent to cause an errant throw - this is bush league.

Granted the defense should know what's going on and keep up with everything but overall it's just wrong. Now if you're teaching the first one then I compliment you but if it's the second one then it's bush league. You can call it whatever you like but it's bush league.

A LHP with a balk move is a balk. It should be called and if you teach a LHP to use a balk move then what do you do if he gets a crew that actually does call it? He's now got to make an adjustment. But if you work on both moves in practice then you have wasted time teaching an illegal move when you could have been working on something that is beneficial.

On the 1st / 3rd if your talking about (let's say) the 2B flashing in front for a possible cut of the throw from the catcher to nail the runner at third then let's look at it this way

If it's the flash guy deeking the cut then it's great coaching because you probably freeze the runner at third and keep runner from scoring

But if the flash guy does cut the throw and the guy covering the bag fakes a tag then that's bush league and as NJUmp said it's illegal.

quote:
"Bust hard out of the box, however if you anticipate the fly ball being caught, slow down so you do not pass the runner on first base, possibly making the outfielder throw the ball, because that would be BUSH League"


If I'm not mistaken if the batter passes the runner and the ball is dropped / not caught then the batter is out for passing the runner. How smart would a coach look if this happened?

Like I said if you're not teaching the bush league moves I described above then I apologize for misunderstanding what you put. I read it wrong and I commend you for teaching your guys to hustle. But if it's the other stuff then I still call it bush league.

A dog walking down the street does number two on the street. You got a pile of dog doodoo. You take the pile of dog doodoo and put whip cream on it and what do you have? You still got a pile of dog doodoo no matter how you dress it up.

I know it sounds like I'm trying to pick a fight but I'm not. I could be mistaken in what I read but if not then it's bush league.



I should have been more clear when I was stating.

I teach my guys to bust hard out of the box with an aggressive turn. Now how hard of a turn, depends on where the ball is hit. Depending on location, this will dictate how far the runner on first is. If the ball is hit to say Left Center, depending on depth, the runner should be basically on 2nd Base, and the batter should have a hard aggresive turn basically going 50% of the way to 2nd.

Now if the ball is dropped, you have 2nd and 3rd, as opposed to 1st and 2nd or 1st and 3rd, eliminating the possibility for a double play if less than 2 outs. Now where this may have got misconstrued about forcing the fielder to make an errant throw, you are not trying to force an errant throw, but in this situation, say the ball were caught. The fielder may see this batter taking that hard aggressive turn, and make the Mental mistake by forcing the ball back into the infield causing an errant throw.

To me that is not bush league at all.

As far as the deke goes, what I mean is 1st and 3rd, runner breaks, catcher comes up firing, shortstop crashes, dekes a throw while the ball is actually thrown through.

I hope this makes a little more sense.
NIC15NIC15100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by NIC15:

Well the last thing I want to do is be BUSH League.. Seeing as how I do not teach players the right way. And that telling a guy to bust hard out of the box and round the bag hard is wrong. Please tell me the proper way to teach a kid.

But let me ask you, is a LHP with a great balk move BUSH League?


Yep. He's being taught to cheat instead of mastering a good, legitimate pickoff move.

quote:
In a 1st and 3rd situation with the runner going is having an infielder crash and glove deeke the runner BUSH league?


Could be...depends on how the deke is excuted. Could also be illegal in high school ball.



About the Balk. I beg to differ, if my guy has a great move, that is borderline balk, or possibly is a balk, I am not going to tell him not to use it.

Terry Mulholland, Andy Pettite both have great pickoffs that are border line balks, and Mullhollands is a Balk. Do you think that their pitching coach will tell them not to use it, to go to the pen and master a legit pickoff move?

Also let me state: As a Coach at the high school level, I never taught my guys a balk move, at the collegiate level, I did not teach it, but when I did have a LHP who already had a pretty good borderline move, I did work with them to perfect it. And as a coach at the Professional level, I work with my guys on tweaking it as needed.

If this is wrong, than so be. But I stand by what I beleive, and at the higher levels, I do not see a problem with it.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Coach I see what you are saying now and offer my apologies for misunderstanding you. I like what you teach with the baserunning and do the same myself.

As for the pickoff move I'm all for teaching a kid to be close but there are some who I've seen teach a balk move. This next statment won't be appreciated on here since it's the ump forum but the vast majority of HS umps will not call a balk move from a LHP. Coaches know this and teach a balk move which is wrong. You're just hurting that kid if he gets a chance at the next level.

Teach the kid how to make a move that's close but is not. Nothing wrong with that.

Once again I was wrong and apolgize for misreading your post.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NIC15:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:

But let me ask you, is a LHP with a great balk move BUSH League?


quote:
Yep. He's being taught to cheat instead of mastering a good, legitimate pickoff move.



About the Balk. I beg to differ, if my guy has a great move, that is borderline balk, or possibly is a balk, I am not going to tell him not to use it.

If this is wrong, than so be. But I stand by what I beleive, and at the higher levels, I do not see a problem with it.


Fine by me. Job security. Just don't get upset when your reputation begins to precede you.

When I worked Minor League ball, the cheaters were known by all. It was great to see those who didn't need to cheat move up.
Last edited by Jimmy03
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by beltechc:
What is the ruling in high school if a runner who has been called out continues to participate - advancing a base. This could cause confusion in the infield if they attempt to make a play on him and another base runner advances.

I see this in two situations. The first would be a dropped third strike with a runner on first and less then two outs. If the batter-runner advances, it may cause the defense to throw to first even though he has been called out.

The second might be a caught fly ball to the outfield where the batter runner advances to second or even on to third to draw the throw.

I see where the defense could be at fault since they should know the situation but it also seems like it is some sort of diception by the offensive player which is the same concept as a balk by the pitcher.

Could you give me the rule if it is specifically addressed in the rule book.


Its legal under NFHS rules.

NFHS Rule 8.3.3i- a runner or batter runner is not guilty of interference if he continues to advance , even when he knows he is out, even if that advance allows other runners to make additional bases...

Not allowed in NCAA or OBR....
B beltechcMember
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
Originally posted by beltechc:
What is the ruling in high school if a runner who has been called out continues to participate - advancing a base. This could cause confusion in the infield if they attempt to make a play on him and another base runner advances.

I see this in two situations. The first would be a dropped third strike with a runner on first and less then two outs. If the batter-runner advances, it may cause the defense to throw to first even though he has been called out.

The second might be a caught fly ball to the outfield where the batter runner advances to second or even on to third to draw the throw.

I see where the defense could be at fault since they should know the situation but it also seems like it is some sort of diception by the offensive player which is the same concept as a balk by the pitcher.

Could you give me the rule if it is specifically addressed in the rule book.


Its legal under NFHS rules.

NFHS Rule 8.3.3i- a runner or batter runner is not guilty of interference if he continues to advance , even when he knows he is out, even if that advance allows other runners to make additional bases...

Not allowed in NCAA or OBR....
B beltechcMember
quote:
Originally posted by beltechc:
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
Originally posted by beltechc:
What is the ruling in high school if a runner who has been called out continues to participate - advancing a base. This could cause confusion in the infield if they attempt to make a play on him and another base runner advances.

I see this in two situations. The first would be a dropped third strike with a runner on first and less then two outs. If the batter-runner advances, it may cause the defense to throw to first even though he has been called out.

The second might be a caught fly ball to the outfield where the batter runner advances to second or even on to third to draw the throw.

I see where the defense could be at fault since they should know the situation but it also seems like it is some sort of diception by the offensive player which is the same concept as a balk by the pitcher.

Could you give me the rule if it is specifically addressed in the rule book.


Its legal under NFHS rules.

NFHS Rule 8.3.3i- a runner or batter runner is not guilty of interference if he continues to advance , even when he knows he is out, even if that advance allows other runners to make additional bases...

Not allowed in NCAA or OBR....


"I have the 2009 NFHS rule book and can not find 8.3.3i mine ends at f. Is that the correct section or has all that been added in 2010.
NIC15NIC15100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
Coach I see what you are saying now and offer my apologies for misunderstanding you. I like what you teach with the baserunning and do the same myself.

As for the pickoff move I'm all for teaching a kid to be close but there are some who I've seen teach a balk move. This next statment won't be appreciated on here since it's the ump forum but the vast majority of HS umps will not call a balk move from a LHP. Coaches know this and teach a balk move which is wrong. You're just hurting that kid if he gets a chance at the next level.

Teach the kid how to make a move that's close but is not. Nothing wrong with that.

Once again I was wrong and apolgize for misreading your post.



Not a problem at all, I take the blame for not being more clear. After reading it over I see how it could have looked. Best of luck coach!
NIC15NIC15100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by NIC15:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:

But let me ask you, is a LHP with a great balk move BUSH League?


quote:
Yep. He's being taught to cheat instead of mastering a good, legitimate pickoff move.



About the Balk. I beg to differ, if my guy has a great move, that is borderline balk, or possibly is a balk, I am not going to tell him not to use it.

If this is wrong, than so be. But I stand by what I beleive, and at the higher levels, I do not see a problem with it.


Fine by me. Job security. Just don't get upset when your reputation begins to precede you.

When I worked Minor League ball, the cheaters were known by all. It was great to see those who didn't need to cheat move up.



Thank you. And I promise I won't get upset if that does happen. Like I said, I stand by what I stated and you can call it what you may. It is what it is.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by beltechc:
[NFHS Rule 8.3.3i- a runner or batter runner is not guilty of interference if he continues to advance , even when he knows he is out, even if that advance allows other runners to make additional bases...

Not allowed in NCAA or OBR....
[/QUOTE]

"I have the 2009 NFHS rule book and can not find 8.3.3i mine ends at f. Is that the correct section or has all that been added in 2010.[/QUOTE]

sorry, that is the case book designation....page 74 of the 2010 NFHS casebook....8.3.3i

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