Running over Catcher and breaking up double plays

It's pro ball. They're supposed to man up. The middle infield and catcher protection rules started at the bottom of the baseball food chain (youth ball) and worked it's way up. By pro ball, it's about baseball, nothing else. There aren't any governing educrats making rules.

a quick thought is that is goes back to the early days of baseball.... many rules have changed - equipment has changed - this is probably something that will be reviewed at sometime.

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Originally posted by TG:
It's pro ball. They're supposed to man up. The middle infield and catcher protection rules started at the bottom of the baseball food chain (youth ball) and worked it's way up. By pro ball, it's about baseball, nothing else. There aren't any governing educrats making rules.

Yeah, when Pete Rose ran over Fosse, (in a freaking All Star game no less) he manned up and what did it get him? How many other's careers have been shortened by senseless collisions? You think pro ball is about baseball? I'm pretty sure it's about money. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be getting paid either.JMO

I'm actually glad that it is allowed. I like anything that forces a player to be tough, I'll take a tough gritty player over a 5 tool stud who wont hustle any day, I might lose but I'd still be happy with my choice

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Originally posted by Patty C:
I'm actually glad that it is allowed. I like anything that forces a player to be tough, I'll take a tough gritty player over a 5 tool stud who wont hustle any day, I might lose but I'd still be happy with my choice

So, at what age would you say it should be legal? I think diving for balls, running into fences, going into the stands on pop-ups shows toughness too and also shows hustle. My question, I guess, is is it worth it for two millionaires to run into each other on purpose when both could end their career.

well I think if your making millions of dollars to play such a great game that many would play for food money I think the least you can ask is that they give everything they have including sacrificing their bodies if it means helping the team

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Originally posted by micmeister:

Yeah, when Pete Rose ran over Fosse, (in a freaking All Star game no less) he manned up and what did it get him? How many other's careers have been shortened by senseless collisions?

I'll bet very few careers been ruined over senseless collisions. There are very few senseless collisions. The reason is a little payback called "ear holing." Besides most players respect each other's careers.

What Rose did was legitmate. It may have been deemed over the top by some given it was an all-star game, but Fosse never held it against him. Rose always played to win. There are certain situations that come with the package for catchers.

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Originally posted by micmeister:
So, at what age would you say it should be legal? I think diving for balls, running into fences, going into the stands on pop-ups shows toughness too and also shows hustle. My question, I guess, is is it worth it for two millionaires to run into each other on purpose when both could end their career.

It was legal when I played. One of my memories (to the best of my recollection) was ending up as a bug on the windshield when I (6'1", 175) tried to take out a 6'3", 225 pound catcher in Legion ball. No, he didn't drop the ball.

My son learned the hard way with today's rules to be very selective about sliding into home head first. He once got a face full of shin guards.

I'm not saying outlaw it but it's really a stupid play. It hurts.

When I was in high school I got run over (yes he was ejected) when I was on my knees trying to block a throw home. The runner had a small lane and could easily step around me because I didn't have the ball. He put his forearm in my face (stupid me took my mask off) and I went straight back with my legs under me. It did something to my hip because I couldn't walk that night. Thankfully it got somewhat better the next day and we had three days before our next game so I had time to get over it.

I was 6'0 - 210 lbs and played offensive line in football. I would like to think I was pretty tough. The guy who ran over me was 6'2 - 250ish lbs and ended playing defensive line for a major college football team.

I can't remember who the catcher was but anybody remember when Deion Sanders ran over the catcher in a game? It was uncalled for.

Most homeplate collisions are cheap shots. They can be avoided.

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Originally posted by TG:

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Originally posted by micmeister:

Yeah, when Pete Rose ran over Fosse, (in a freaking All Star game no less) he manned up and what did it get him? How many other's careers have been shortened by senseless collisions?

I'll bet very few careers been ruined over senseless collisions. There are very few senseless collisions. The reason is a little payback called "ear holing." Besides most players respect each other's careers.

What Rose did was legitmate. It may have been deemed over the top by some given it was an all-star game, but Fosse never held it against him. Rose always played to win. There are certain situations that come with the package for catchers.

Yes sir, there are certain situations that come with the package as the rules stand now. When I played, I ran over the Catcher if he was blocking the plate and I took out many a SS and 2B on double plays, but it wasn't against the rules and it was expected. Maybe Rose just got caught up in the moment or it was just habit, I don't know, but it just wasn't worth it IMO and wouldn't have happened had the rules been different. I just don't see anything lost in the High School or College games by not being able to do those things, maybe I'm wrong.

It was legal when I played. One of my memories (to the best of my recollection) was ending up as a bug on the windshield when I (6'1", 175) tried to take out a 6'3", 225 pound catcher in Legion ball. No, he didn't drop the ball.
My son learned the hard way with today's rules to be very selective about sliding into home head first. He once got a face full of shin guards.[/QUOTE]



That is kind of my point, what did running into him accomplish? I'd like to see a stat on how many times these contacts actually accomplish their goal. I'm thinking at best 25%, so at best 75% of the contacts accomplished nothing other than risking the loss of a Major League player to injury.

As far as sliding head first into home, I cost myself at the least a shot to play Minor League ball by sliding head first into 3b when I was a Junior in High School. It was the only time I had ever done it and didn't know what I was doing. I don't like the head first slide either and won't let my son do it, but even if I did, Home would not be one of the places I would recommend doing it. I don't think the risk vs. reward is worth it and not sure there is even an advantage gained by it.

Please note that my views belong to the college game. The rules for high school are great in my mind and serve a purpose, but the NCAA needs to do some reworking of their rules.

I remember a something from my high school football days that I feel can be very true. Coaches always told the young guys that if you think you're going to get hurt, you will get hurt. We were told this as a means to focus on proper form, technique, and just what it was we were trying to accomplish. And wouldn't you know it, the few guys who got hurt, injured hurt, were the guys who were worried about getting hurt so they didn't do things right.

I think that this holds true in baseball as well. I hated in college that I couldn't reach for the base to break up a double play. Heck, I had a runner at first called out once when I slid properly into the base because the umpire was, well, an umpire. At the college level I feel that a baseball player has the strength and body control to make those plays and enable themselves to stay safe. If a middle infielder knows that the runner can try to break up the double play, he'll learn ways to make a throw and/or contact safely. A catcher will learn to use their equipment and body positioning to take a hit. When they know it can happen, they're prepare for it and be ready to do it safely.

It's funny to me how nobody complains about a wide receiver getting ear holed while going across the middle because he's so focused on the football that he doesn't see a defender coming, but when a middle infielder or catcher ends up on the ground rules need to be changed and runners called out and/or ejected.

Oh, I was a catcher in college.

Again, the rules as they stand for high schoolers are good. Once you get to college, change 'em.

In our tournament we play American League Rules---that means the "must slide" rule et al are not in effect---we believe that at the age of 17/18 the players who are skilled know how to play the game properly and the "safe" rules need not be used----it also eliminates a lot of umpire questions as to "did he or didn't he" in terms of the slide

At the level of skill we play at we like to think the kids respect the game and the opposition and will not look to hurt a player intentionally.

We also use umpires who work at the college and pro level (independent/minor league) whicxh also helps---they know what is happening

Simple as the difference between professional and amateur baseball.

Amateur baseball is supposed to be fun.

Professional baseball is someone's livelihood and they are supposed to know how to take care of themselves.

Little leaguers are usually happiest when they get the hotdog and coke after the game.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that running into the catcher is ALWAYS justified. I think there is a time for it, but if the catcher has no chance at the ball then obviously I think the runner should step step around him.

Mcmeister,
I get your point about the whole Pete Rose thing and many would agree with you that there was no point in a play like that at an all-star game but you can't fault the guy for playing to win.

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but if the catcher has no chance at the ball then obviously I think the runner should step step around him.

Maybe the catcher should move out of the way?

Bottom line the baserunners goal is to tag the plate and the catchers role is to is to stop that attempt. You are going to have a "conflict of interests" at times. That is baseball.

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but the NCAA needs to do some reworking of their rules.

Funny, isn't it, that the NCAA won't mandate wooden bats ... thus lowering the chances of a player being hurt and/or killed by a line drive off of a metal bat ... but they don't want players to get hurt in baserunning situations. Why do I feel like this is backwards? Oh wait ... it's the NCAA we're talking about. Sorry, forget my silly question. I forgot we can't rationalize irrational thinking (IMHO) !!!

Ive been ran over once.It happened my freshman year,and the kid got ejected.

I think its fine in High School,but once in college,they would be able to slide hard into 2nd and home.They are just a step away from professional baseball,they should get used to it

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
That is kind of my point, what did running into him accomplish? I'd like to see a stat on how many times these contacts actually accomplish their goal. I'm thinking at best 25%, so at best 75% of the contacts accomplished nothing other than risking the loss of a Major League player to injury.

Many hitters only hit .250. So are 25% odds that bad. I've rarely sen players injured (different than momentarily shaken up) in these collisions. While my play was like getting stuffed by a linebacker on a goal line stand, I got up.

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As far as sliding head first into home, I cost myself at the least a shot to play Minor League ball by sliding head first into 3b when I was a Junior in High School. It was the only time I had ever done it and didn't know what I was doing. I don't like the head first slide either and won't let my son do it, but even if I did, Home would not be one of the places I would recommend doing it. I don't think the risk vs. reward is worth it and not sure there is even an advantage gained by it.

He's only gone head first into home one time since. It was a good decision. The throw was high. He got his fingers on the plate by an inch for the winning run. Had he gone feet first his foot wouldn't have been low enough