Running the Bases - Going on your own?

I've always allowed my players to go on their own....anytime that there wasn't some other type of play on that would prevent it.  The deal has always been "if you go on your own....you'd better be safe.....if I send you and you're out...it's on me"....lol. 

1.  I think the 3B coach and HC want your son to stop stealing on his own without a sign.  Not real sure what he means by "working counts" but he either has a valid concept going on but did a bad job explaining it or he's clueless and just making things up.  Overall regardless of whichever one it is if he says stop stealing without signs then stop stealing.

2.  I like for my guys to be aggressive on bases but you can't just say "you're free - take any base you can".  These situations have to be taught.  I even allow running through a stop sign at 3B as long as they are safe and can justify to me later why they went on.  But at the same time if you're going to let them be aggressive you can't get on them when they get out or even mess up - you teach / coach them.  Now if they keep making bad mistakes then you have to start going with option B and making decisions for them.

All that being said if the philosophy is opposite - be more conservative and only run when told - then you need to do what your told to do.

Those coaches have a team of 15 - 20 players and whatever JV players (if any).  They are going to see your son stealing on his own without signs and running stops signs at 3B.  Regardless of being right / wrong or safe / out that will start infecting the rest of the team.  The rest of the team may not be an baseball intelligent as your son but if he gets away with ignoring what the coaches say they will start to do the same thing.  Now you have a breakdown in the discipline of the team.  That cannot happen or it will destroy the season.

Tell your son to politely go to the coach and tell him he understands that him ignoring signs will hurt the chemistry of the team then apologize.  Then have him ask to explain further about working the counts comment because he didn't understand it.  Either the coach will explain it better or it will prove he's clueless and his ego is hurt but either way it's not good for team chemistry to have him do his own thing.

I think he just really meant, "I don't want kids going on their own."

My players don't go on their own.

I can't even fathom running through stop signs.

Coach2709 - great feedback.  That makes a lot of sense to me.

freddy77 - thanks for boiling it down.

buckeye - my approach as well but he's gotta live by his HC and 3B coach rules and I get that

Appreciate all of the insights.  Thanks.

All my players are given green lights to run in the fall and must earn the right to have one during the year.  I am looking for players to be aggressive, know certain situations, and most importantly to be safe on a consistent basis.  I actually hate having to give the steal sign because when I do and a kid gets a bad jump most of the time they keep going as opposed to shut it down.

And no matter how many times you tell them "if you get a bad jump then don't continue" they will keep going.  

IEBSBL - I really like that approach.  You earn the right to make decisions on the base paths. 

 That one drives me nuts!

If he ever get's thrown out at the plate while running through a stop sign, it might get ugly. If he has a green light to steal, do your best to keep your coaches confidence that you can handle it.

 My favorite coach would say (you have the green light until you prove to me otherwise)

Every year, I had one or two green lighted.  A couple of years, I had three.  We set this one very clear rule.  If you go and get thrown out, I need to know why.  Other than that, run.  Most of the time, they didn't get a good jump and still went.  Once one of my players with a great personality told me he got thrown out because he was stupid.  LOL!  At times, they said that they had great jumps and the throw beat them.  You know what, that happens. 

All others only ran when I gave them the signal.  Still, I promised every team I ever coached that I would never stop running unless we were burying a team.  If we were losing, we were still running.  One year we stole 237 bases.  I still can't get my state association to accept that record.  My former AD sent stuff in.  I sent stuff in.  I sent in the totals for every players individually and as a team and they still have not been recognized. 

Finally, if you run through a stop sign, it won't be pretty.  While the game is progressing, the player and I will be somewhere in that dugout having a talk.  Whomever is in the game will have a great opportunity to earn a position.  JMHO! 

We see this differently.

To me, the unpardonable offense is intentionally running through a stop sign; safe or out is irrelevant.

The pardonable exception is a lousy stop sign--it was thrown up late and/or the 3BC was out of position and/or it wasn't given emphatically. 

Freddy77 - I'm curious what it is about running through a good stop sign when the runner is safe that makes it an "unpardonable offense" in your opinion. Thoughts?

Wolf,

Hypothetically, let's say there's R1/R2/no-outs, and we call for a sac bunt.  The batter swings away and drives in both runners with a standup triple.

3BC:  "Did you see the bunt sign?"

Player:  "Yes coach, I saw it, but I just felt really confident I could drive the ball."

If you were the 3BC, would you be OK with this?

I'd be ticked off, big-time--I can feel my blood pressure rising right now even though this is just a hypothetical.

Great Post! This question always seems to be hard to get an easy answer to. Couldn't have explained it any better.

hahaha...I hear you on that scenario.  I would be boiling as well.  I do think the 2 situations are somewhat different though. in my mind anyway.  They both go against, "I told you what to do and you didn't".  I just see degrees of that between them is all.  That sac bunt scenario is certainly unpardonable.  The running through the sign when safe, is less objectionable to me albeit still an offense.

This is a valuable coaching thread.

Is it possible to move it to "Coaching Tips,", where it won't get buried?

IF your son steals on his own and gets thrown out, I would expect him to be benched the rest of the game, if not longer. If you go and get caught when I tell you, it's on me. If you go on your own and get caught, well...

Thanks Coach3.  I really am enjoying the range of reactions to this.  Some great advice for coaches and players and certainly enlightening for me personally.

Keep it coming folks.

I wouldn't think anyone would steal on their own.  I would think the coach would communicate to player's if they have the green light or not. 

Run through a stop sign?  out or safe, not good.

I had a player steal on his own one game. He was safe, and I called time and ripped him for it. Why? A little different situation, but we were up by seven runs late in the game. After the 5th inning ended, I told whole team there will be no more stealing bases and no one advances on passed balls/wild pitches. To me, when someone takes it upon themselves to steal on their own (without coach giving green light), it is not a good look on the kid.

I thought EVERYONE knows that there is no such thing as a bad jump in HS? Simply a bad time to put on the steal, by the coach! 

I find it interesting that the coach doesn't want your kid to steal without a sign.  Now if he kept doing it and was out all the time then that would be a different deal.

I have a good friend that coaches A ball he told me that all of his players have a green light and he only gave two steal signs last year yet his team led the league in stolen bases.  

Now running a stop sign is a different story.  Right or wrong if the coach tells you to stop you better stop.  

When my son was in high school he played for a very conservative, station to station coach. This guy didn't send the fastest kid on the team on a grounder up the middle from second with two outs in the bottom of the last.

Junior year my son started taking the easy steals (big jumps off bad moves) on his own. The coach decided to give him the green light with a don't go sign. He was not allowed to tell the rest of the team. But I could never under any circumstances imagine him running through stop signs.

Coach,

I'm curious - what might an appropriate justification be for running through a stop sign?  I'm assuming "you don't realize how fast I am" or "I knew the center fielder had no arm" or "you got it wrong" aren't acceptable?

When I was an assistant coach, we had one young man that transferred in as a senior.  Great talent but undisciplined and refused to do things that were the foundation of the program including always running through stop signs.  So, his playing time was diminished.  We were in the sectional championship game and he was bunted to third.  We were the home team and one out.  Fly ball to left and shallow.  HC went down the line to judge the angle and technique of the fielder.  LF had a running start on the throw and it was shallow.  HC put up stop sign.  This young man took off anyway.  He was out by three or four feet.  We lost the lead the next inning and lost the sectional.  Our pitcher on the mound had one loss in his varsity career.  This game.  I don't know if the next hitter would have gotten a hit.  I do know that this man took it upon himself to disregard the HC's stop sign and he was out.  20 other players and coaches also will never know what might have been.   

Each season, we usually have a few players who have the green light and are told so but only after we are reasonably confident they know what to base their decisions on.

Sometimes we forget that young HS players don't have years and years of game experience to fall back on.  Base running is one of those areas that remind us.  Even if you talk about a situation 100 times, until they experience it in a game a few times, it won't always register. 

That said, running through a 3b coach's hold sign is just plain defying a coach's orders.  Can't think of any acceptable reason for that.

In regards to the "working the count" comment, perhaps he wanted to see the P's slidestep or throw-over move.  Or maybe he was thinking hit-and-run if the next pitch was "x".  Or maybe he was seeing a pattern of breaking balls later in the count.  Or perhaps I'm giving him too much credit

I truly hope the coach knows what he is doing but if he did, I think he would have been better able to articulate it when asked so, who knows....

We played again today and Jr did not advance except when told to an a hit and run from 2B after a double so he got the message.  A team mate did, however, and although safe by several feet, was chastised (not saying rightly or wrongly, just what happened).  The catcher had a poor arm and the pitcher really wasn't doing a good job at holding the runner but I guess he was "working the count". 

I tend to be more aggressive on the base paths but it's his team and his rules so have to abide.

Again folks, great input and love the varied opinions.  Nice chatter on this topic.

Well allow may not be the best word to describe the situation.  Work with may be a better word in that if they run my stop sign I don't automatically bench them or have a come to religion meeting with them.  I give them a chance to tell me what was going on in their head - even if they were safe.  It goes back to my philosophy of teaching them how to run bases.  They are going to mess up but I would rather learn what's going on in their head versus yelling at them or benching them.

Now what can they say to make me happy - they took a pre-pitch look at where OF were positioned to get an extra step.  They know the guy throwing has a weak arm or is usually off line with his throws from watching pregame throws.  

One thing to remember is we start out of the box in letting our guys make decisions on go or no go.  Our first base coach truly doesn't do a whole heck of a lot.  I want my guys to see what's going on and make their own decisions because it's quicker in making things happen.  Old school baseball tells you to not watch the ball when running to first because it slows you down - we've all been told this because it's true.  But if you're going to watch a coach to see what the decision is going to be will slow the runner down as well.  When a runner is looking at something trying to figure out what's going on it will slow all runners down.  So why not have them look at the ball and make their own mind up while being slowed down a little bit versus being slowed down a little more because looking at a coach?

Hope this makes sense.

Please tell me your joking..

Whoops!  I wrote that incorrectly.  I meant he did not steal on his own or advance past a stop sign. 

My only thought on "working the count" would be attempting to make the pitcher throw pitches in order to get to the bullpen.  I went back and looked at the original post and it does not state inning nor probable pitch count at the time.  The other situation is the fact that early in the game, inning 1/2, he may want to get the pitcher to showcase all pitches.  With that said I am not defending the guy, something does seem weird, I am simply giving a possible reason.  I do understand his position to a certain extent because at one point in my career I was a don't steal unless I give you the steal sign until I learned to look for percentages of success, 80%, and what it means to a team.  Very frequently our lead off hitter has reached based and has been standing on 3rd within 3 pitches.

In regards to blowing a stop sign and being defiant, I don't necessarily agree.  In our program we will wheel the runners past the bag probably over 90% of the time and then put the stop sign on, we are looking for a bobble or for the outfielder making the wrong load.  This is something that we spend time on in practice so that players are comfortable doing this.  With that said, we inevitable have younger kids blow stop signs in the fall because they are not used to it yet. 

I'm referring to the coach calling for a hit and run with a man on 2nd.

I think "working the count" meant that the 3B coach was looking for a good count to steal on, which is normal for those of us who rarely greenlight  R1s.

BOOM! I think Freddy is right.