Running Through the Catcher

Only in the pro's are you allowed to make contact with the catcher on purpose.
Slide are avoid is the rule in all other league play.

The umpire was exactly right in the fact that you can't hit the catcher like the pros. He should have also tossed you for malicious contact. No where in youth baseball can you take out a player like that. You can't even do that in college.

quote:

i hit the catcher with my shoulder in an attempt to force him to drop the ball. The umpire called me out because the catcher held on, but he also tossed me from the game. He stated that High School Rules state that it was not allowed to hit the catcher like that. Is this true? or is hitting the catcher allowed like in the majors?

Under NFHS and NCAA this is a correct call by the umpire.........and the ejection for malicious contact is correct and deserved as well.

If you were not aware of that rule, be advised that you cant "take out" the fielder on a double play either.........

Another thing to worry about is during a high school season is that most states have a and one situation happening.

If you are tossed from this game then you have to sit out of another game.

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:

quote:

i hit the catcher with my shoulder in an attempt to force him to drop the ball. The umpire called me out because the catcher held on, but he also tossed me from the game. He stated that High School Rules state that it was not allowed to hit the catcher like that. Is this true? or is hitting the catcher allowed like in the majors?

Under NFHS and NCAA this is a correct call by the umpire.........and the ejection for malicious contact is correct and deserved as well.

If you were not aware of that rule, be advised that you cant "take out" the fielder on a double play either.........

This is the Force Play Slice Rule (FPSR). It is in effect at all three bases a force can take place. In reality, there are times in FED you can take out a fielder with a slide, but it is a very narrow window as to where contact is allowed. To sum it up as best as possible you need to visulize a certain area. It is as wide as the base itself and extends to the back of the base and goes no further. If you make contact standing up in this area, no matter how slight, the FPSR automatically takes effect and a double play is ruled no matter if the contact would have had any effect on the play.

This is the best I can sum it up without writing about three pages.

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So i have a question what if there is a play where i am running home and the guy is a good 7-8 ft up the baseline can i run straight threw him?

Also with the dp i cant slide to the outside or inside at all?

quote:

So i have a question what if there is a play where i am running home and the guy is a good 7-8 ft up the baseline can i run straight threw him?

Also with the dp i cant slide to the outside or inside at all?

1. The rule is slide are avoid, If Catcher does not have ball and he is in the basepaths. and you ( the Runner ) make contact with him.
He ( the Catcher ) will be called for Interferance/Obstruction.
You are still not aloud to run him over though.

2. You must slide straight to the bag, Your not aloud to go after the fielder on either side of the bag.

These things are only aloud in Pro Ball.
EH

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:

quote:

So i have a question what if there is a play where i am running home and the guy is a good 7-8 ft up the baseline can i run straight threw him?

Also with the dp i cant slide to the outside or inside at all?

1. The rule is slide are avoid, If Catcher does not have ball and he is in the basepaths. and you ( the Runner ) make contact with him.
He ( the Catcher ) will be called for Interferance/Obstruction.
You are still not aloud to run him over though.

2. You must slide straight to the bag, Your not aloud to go after the fielder on either side of the bag.

These things are only aloud in Pro Ball.


EH

You can slide to the inside or outside on a double play. However, I suggest to slide to side of the base that is opposite that the fielder is going. FED rules are very safety orientated to say the least.

Offense interferes. Defense obstructs.

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Thanks Jimi, for the Meaning of Obstruction/ Interferance

What I meant about sliding, You can't go after the fielder unless he is at the bag in any amatuer ball.
Pro's can go outside of the lines to break up a DP.
EH

In HS the FPSR is there as a safety rule. As steted, you can't slide to the side of the bag to go after the fielder. What you can do is, slide into the fielder if he is in front of the bag or on top of it. If the fielder is behind the bag and you slide at the bag but contact him beyond the bag, that is also a violation.
In college it is the same except for the beyond the bag part. It was eacxtly the same rule until this year, where they changed a couple of things. One is the hit beyond the bag. The other is a the pop-up side is legal in NCAA.

They play at the plate where the catcher is up the line without the ball, the rule is changing this year. In the past it was been the slide or attepmt to avoid contact. The fielder wasn't allowed to be there unless the throw took him there. This year it will be he can't be without the ball period.
No matter, you can't crash him. If he is in the baseline you need to try to avoid him. In doiung so the umpire should call the obstruction and award you home. If you crash him then you are going to be ejected. MC trumps obstruction.

quote:

If you crash him then you are going to be ejected. MC trumps obstruction

MST, this is an excellent point to highlight.........In NFHS obstruction does not alleviate the runner of the responsiblity to not create malicous contact.

Jimi..you are right except for one exception that I know of..."catcher's interference" is a defensive interference

Kimosabe...

"Catchers interference" is a bit of a misnomer........this is one of those common usage items that is accepted as correct, but isnt.....

When you have umpires discussing the play, we use the term "Catchers obstruction"....which is the correct term as correctly stated by JIMI........The Offense interferes, the Defense obstructs....

and here is where we get it from:

Interference- (NFHS FED definition)-Interference is any act (physically, including visual or verbal) that impedes, hinders or confuses the defense.

(So only the offense can interfere)

Obstruction- (NFHS Fed definition)- Obstruction is the act of any Fielder "not attempting to make a play" that hinders a runner. also obstruction can be intentional or unintentional and it can be by any member of the defensive team or its personnel.

(So only the defense can obstruct)

This kind of falls in the same vein as the "foul pole" which we all know is the fair pole...but common usage is to call it the foul pole.

hope this helps you see it the way we do.....

I understand the difference between interference and obstruction but thank you for your explanation.

I would like to hear from other umpires that instead of using the terms catcher's interference they use catcher's obstruction. I have been around baseball for over 40 years and never heard it called obstruction (even though that's what it is). Is there a rebellion that's taking place and leaving me out? I once saw a pigeon fly directly into the "fair" pole making it the only time it's correctly a fowl pole.

The HS rulebook correctly calls it catcher's obstruction. NCAA and OBR both call it CI. When we discuss it with someone that doesn't understand the difference we call it CI but then explain that is really an obstruction call.

quote:

Originally posted by hotcorner32:
I was playing in a fall High School game earlier this month. I was standing on second base when my teammate hit a weak ground ball through the infield on the right side, my coach waved me and i started running to home. As my right foot hit where home plate dirt and grass meet, the ball entered the catcher's glove and instead of sliding; i hit the catcher with my shoulder in an attempt to force him to drop the ball. The umpire called me out because the catcher held on, but he also tossed me from the game. He stated that High School Rules state that it was not allowed to hit the catcher like that. Is this true? or is hitting the catcher allowed like in the majors?
thanks

Since you have stated that you went after the catcher, many of the opposition, would probably want you removed from the league, Thus if you only received removal from a game, appears to be a very light disciplinary action.

..and that you profess ignorance of this VERY BASIC NHFS rule speaks ill of your coaching, or you are not telling the truth.

I have never met a highschool player who was unaware of the NFHS slide-or-attempt-to-avoid rule, even if they didnt always obey it.

what happens if the catcher is 8 feet up the baseline and he does have the ball? do you have to run back and get in a pickle or do you look like an idiot and slide 8 feet in front of home plate?

If the catcher is 8 feet up the line without the ball, it matters not the level of play, he is fair game-- a runner does not slide from 8 feet away from the plate---that is the fallacy in the "must slide rule"---kids get hurt sliding when they do not have to but do it because of the silly rule

If he is 8 feet up the line without the ball, that is obstruction. And the runner could leave the baseline to go around him anyway, since he wouldn't be doing it to avoid a tag.

Besides, the "slide" rule is actually 'slide or avoid.'

ROB

Why does the runner have to deviate?

If the catcher is up the line 8 feet then whatever happens , happens---the catcher is simply in the wrong place at the wrong time

That's my point, the runner doesn't have to deviate. It is obstruction so he gets the base.

But if he runs through the catcher (in HS and college rules) then he has taken what would be a sure run and just made an out for himself, and possibly an ejection.

That isn't a very smart play, in my opinion.

Sounds like we have some guys who like taking a cheap shot at opposing players.

Catchers will play the game however the opposition wants...just let them go head hunting with the next few pitches in HS/college. A couple fastballs behind the head will change some opinions about running through a player quickly. You intentionally steamroll my catcher, as a pitcher I intentionally take out your best hitters for a couple games. Fair trade, everybody's happy. And the catcher payback, expect a knee drop from my shinguards as you slide into the plate, safe or not you will pay the price. If I do it right, you'll miss at least the rest of this game. Just good old fashioned hard nosed baseball; that's what you wanted...right?

What...someone may get seriously hurt? Well, duhhh...why do you think the pros take this stuff fairly seriously and police it themselves pretty well. Leaving the policing to HS kids...yeah, that makes sense. I can see the HS pitcher thinking,"Yeah I plunked that guy to take up for my catcher getting nailed, but I didn't do it as good as I wanted...I'll try it again on this kid." As someone said "whatever happens, happens".

Train wrecks happen in baseball where contact is made and someone gets plowed. The posts so far are not even close to that...they are espousing lowering the shoulder and intentional contact on defenseless players. Guys, that is a cheap shot no matter how you paint it or try to justify it.

Guys, this is maybe one of the dumbest or at least most irresponsible threads I've ever read on a baseball board.

S. Abrams:
I read quite a few comments that are quite clearly saying that running through the catcher is wrong and should result in ejection. The whole thread isn't irresponsible, just some of the comments.

Rob,

You are correct that the majority correctly cited the rules and were adamant about the avoiding contact. I did go overboard but it irks me that even after reading the posting on the rules, some posters seemed to be looking for ways to "legally" run over a player. I should have used a rifle versus a shotgun and pinpointed the guilty.

I did use much too broad a brush describing the entire thread as irrespnsible and for that I apologize to all that cited rules and the avoidance of contact.

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Rob,

You are correct that the majority correctly cited the rules and were adamant about the avoiding contact. I did go overboard but it irks me that even after reading the posting on the rules, some posters seemed to be looking for ways to "legally" run over a player. I should have used a rifle versus a shotgun and pinpointed the guilty.

I did use much too broad a brush describing the entire thread as irrespnsible and for that I apologize to all that cited rules and the avoidance of contact.

Guys...I am right with you. I even hate it in MLB. If this were supposed to be a contact sport (aka football or hockey), then all the players would be wearing pads...not just the catcher.

When I was coaching 18U baseball several years ago, we played in a league that was strictly American League rules. One of my players bowled over a catcher once (legal, clean play)...and from that day forward, we never did it again. It was sickening to watch a woozy 17 year old catcher get up. All I could think about was the kid's father in the stands and how he must have felt, much less the catcher. No...just ain't worth it. Call me bleeding heart or whatever, but I see no need in it.

Rob

Let me tell you this ---if the catcher is 8 feet up the line and DOES NOT HAVE THE BALL and my runner gets ejected for running thru the catcher there will be a protest that I will win and win on the side of safety. By being where he is the catcher is putting my player in peril, not to mention he, the catcher, is doing the same to himself---the runner cannot slide and running full tilt it is rather difficult to alter his path. I have seen catchers do this intentionally because they know how the rule is written and use to their advantage and that is wrong plus most coaches won't protest it.


The rule needs to rewritten

TR:
I don't think you would win that protest. I'd be interested to hear the opinion of the umpires here, but my guess is that you wouldn't win that.

Malicious contact trumps any other breach of the rules, so it would make irrelevant the obstruction. So your runner has just turned a sure run into an out and an ejection.

I hope you don't coach kids to do this.

I also disagree that it is hard for a runner going full speed to avoid someone in his path. It's not. Are you telling me that if I run full speed at someone standing stationary that my momentum is so great that I cannot safely avoid him?

If that is the reed upon which you would hang your protest, it is a thin reed indeed.

Just where did I put that rifle???

Trhit, not only does the player possibly get ejected (probably if he lowers shoulder or makes intentional contact) but you will be right behind him if you argue very much. Then, you both probably get to miss the next game also.

Just how is running through another player in the interest of safety? It sounds like you would prefer your runner to initiate contact instead of avoiding it.

You are not talking about a trainwreck where two players step into each others way by accident and can't avoid a collision but rather advocating an intentional act. Huge difference between the two and there's a difference between hard nosed baseball and taking cheap shots.

Never have I ever seen or heard or imagined a catcher intentionally moving up the line except to go after an errant throw. All catchers prefer to hold their ground, off the basepath, if given the chance, period.

A poorly taught catcher will often obstruct home plate without the ball, good catchers don't. A good umpire will call obstruction, a bad one won't. Malicious contact is easy even for a bad umpire.

Don't catchers have enough to worry about with runners coming in with high spikes, getting hit by long follow throughs, batter interference on throws and batters slinging bats at them without coaches advocating malicious contact be allowed?

TRhit, if a catcher is out in the basepath dancing around like a NBA point guard trying set a screen to block your runner, you might have a valid point. I'd be arguing obstruction also...unless my runner was stupid enough to intentionally try to run over the catcher. I wouldn't care if he was tossed or not; I'd bench him for stupidity.

TRhit, I've read previous postings from you and I don't believe you coach cheap shots,etc. and that is why I'm suprised by the position you take on this. What are we missing here?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

The rule needs to rewritten

I was going to respond at length but Rob and A.S. took care of that....TR's last line says it all "I'm wrong, but I dont want to be.."

Gentlmen

I am not talking a cheap shot here---no lowering the shoulder our a forearm shiver

Being up the line 8 feet to me is intentionally inviting a collision

What about the catcher ? does he get ejected for intentionally being in the basebpath when he shouldnt be there?


archangel

you totally misinterpret me---

I remember running through a catcher when I was a kid. I was called out, ejected from the game and just to make sure I got what I deserved somehow his spikes ran up my shins as he went down and I got spiked. The moral of the story is don't run through a catcher unless you're playing pro ball. And BTW, even in pro ball if it is an exhibition like the all-star game a player who does that should be thrown out of the game and if he seriously injures the catcher he should be suspended for a long, long time.

I agree with Abrams and Kremer. However TRhit is correct in that catchers will at times move up the line without the ball and be in the basepath. While the times that Ive seen this it's been when the catcher got caught up watching the action elsewhere and lost that he was in the baseline, rarely intentional but Ive seen it intentional too.

The problem I've got with the obstruction call is that if the runner going home would be scoring anyway where's the penalty to the defense? Obstruction call results in a run scored and that's all...runner would have scored anyway assuming there is no pending play at the plate. To me there needs to be additional penalties for obstruction at the plate.

This is highly tangential to this thread, but several comments have alluded that college has the no running into the catcher rule. I believe that is only true for college regular season. I belive in the summer leagues, they use the pro style rules. Here is a sequence of pictures from this past summer where the catcher is sitting on top of the plate and the only choice my son had was to bowl the kid over to get to the plate. My son was called out on the play as the catcher made a nice play but he was not ejected from the game. It's tough to be a catcher

ClevelandDad,
Great pictures of what I call a trainwreck.

Why do I know it's a trainwreck...look at the catchers feet. He slid over to the left (into the basepath) to catch the throw (look at the right leg...good way to break an ankle) and right into your son. Incidental contact like when a 1st baseman comes off the bag for a bad throw right into the runner. Neither player intentionally went after the other...play ball.

Tell your son not to feel bad about being out...looks like that catcher has more than a few pounds and inches on your son. I'd be glad the catcher didn't have time to set himself.

TRhit,
Glad you're not talking intentional contact.

No catcher that has any idea of how to play the position INTENTIONALLY goes up the line for any reason other than for an errant throw. NEVER. Period.

Any coach that teaches that should not be in the dugout.

As far as penalty on the defense for catcher obstruction...why is home different than any other base. Runner gets the base he would have made without the obstruction..in this case scoring a run.

You think catcher obstruction isn't called enough...try batter interference on throws to 3rd on steal attempts. Hitters will dance around in the box to block the throw and usually not get called for interference even if it appears intentional . If the catcher doesn't attempt the throw, it's a no-call...so he is forced to make an obstructed throw hoping to get the proper call. So he throws it into LF or hits the batter which is still a live ball. Rarely do umpires call this interference properly. All they can say is "Batters in the box"....

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
My son was called out on the play as the catcher made a nice play but he was not ejected from the game. It's tough to be a catcher

Great pics.
Clearly shows catcher with ball in glove and a path to plate for runner.

Clearly shows runner attempting to bowl catcher over with shoulder.

Clearly baserunner is out.
Not sure what Dad says is a 'train wreck'.
At minimum, umpire should give warning and maybe
ejection (if HS) or double play if batter reaches base and should catcher have been able to make play on batter baserunner.

Bear I don't agree that this play deserves an ejection based on the three pics. Granted it's not the best evidence but I think the second picture says it all.

When contact is made by the runner his feet are under him and his body is in an almost straight up and down position. To me this is saying he saw he was going to be out and pulled up but could not stop his momentum. It was probably such a bang bang play the catcher didn't have a chance to get out of the way on the tag.

This is a baseball play - catcher caught a short hop and is pretty much defenseless. Runner saw he was going to be out and tried to pull up instead of a cheap shot by laying out and going horizontal into the catcher.

It's hard to be definitive with three pics (good shots by the way) but I think these pics do tell a good story.

Also, with the catchers right foot as it is - it could be a broken ankle but it could also lead to a knee injury as well.

Rule of thumb for catchers - keep knees bent and stay on toes even if on knees.

Am I looking at this wrong or am I right in thinking that based on these pictures, if your sone would have slid he would be safe?

I can't really see the plate, but I assume it is under his right shin guard. If he slid into that shin guard, he would have certainly moved it enough to touch the plate, and from the looks of it would have easily beat the tag since the ball was still up at chest level when he arrived at the plate.

So, IMO, if anything, this series of pictures just reinforces the wisdom of "slide or avoid."