Sac bunt or fielder's choice

10.08 SACRIFICES
The official scorer shall:
(a) ...
(b) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball
without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing
one base, unless, an attempt to turn a bunt into a putout of a preceding runner fails,
and in the judgment of the official scorer ordinary effort would not have put out the
batter at first base, in which case the batter shall be credited with a one-base hit and
not a sacrifice;

So if this happens with less than two outs, it's either a SAC or a single.

I would score it both: a sacrifice bunt, with the batter reaching first base via a fielder's choice. It is still a SAC for the batter.

It might help to think of it this way. There are two things really going on. One is every base advanced by a runner must be accounted for. Even the batter reaching 1st has to be accounted for. A sacrifice doesn’t account for a base reached for the batter, but it does for a runner. It accounts for whether an at bat will be counted in certain statistics or not. Usually people say an at bat is either “official” or not. An official AB gets counted in things like BA and OBP, while an unofficial AB doesn’t.

So, when a batter who puts down a sac bunt and is thrown out pitcher to 1st, a couple things happen. The batter already on base moves a base, and the reason will be the sac bunt. If the batter doesn’t reach base, it isn’t scored sac bunt. Its scored an assist for the pitcher and a put out for the 1st baseman. That way both the runner and the batter are accounted for. But its also scored as a sacrifice, and that has only to do with what kind of at bat, official or unofficial.

So let’s go to the situation. Runner on 1st, batter bunts. An attempt is made to put out a preceding runner that fails, and the batter-runner reaches 1st. A sacrifice is scored making the at bat unofficial so it won’t count against the batter. The runner on 1st moved to 2nd on the sacrifice, but how did that runner reach 1st safely? He did that because the defender made a choice.

Nice call JWC32.

Stats provides a very accurate description. I'll only add this clarification, based on other discussions about fielder's choices over the last few years.

When a batter reaches on a fielder's choice, it doesn't mean he is charged with an at bat. A fielder's choice is simply the reason why he reached first base, as Stats points out. Most of the time a batter reaches first base on a fielder's chioce because a preceeding runner is forced and so everyone tends to think of a FC as an 0-1. It simply isn't true.

Same situation can occur when R3, less than two outs, fly ball to the OF that is "deep enough to score the run" but is dropped. Batter should get a sacrifice fly, RBI. He reached base on an error by the outfielder who dropped the ball.

The only clarification on the play described COULD be, you have Fat Albert at first and Carl Lewis bunting. Carl lays down a pretty good bunt. Pitcher has no chance at first, so goes to second to try and get Fat Albert. Throw is late. I'd score that a hit for Carl.

Not the situation described but possible.

Stats4, you stated, "An official AB gets counted in things like BA and OBP, while an unofficial AB doesn’t."
So do you consider walks and sacs as "official" or "unofficial"? They're both included in OBP.

quote:

Originally posted by RPD:
Stats4, you stated, "An official AB gets counted in things like BA and OBP, while an unofficial AB doesn’t."
So do you consider walks and sacs as "official" or "unofficial"? They're both included in OBP.

OBR doesn't use the term official or unofficial AB. It is just states that a batter is not charged with an at bat for sacrifices, walks, HBP, and getting first base by interference or obstruction.

And Yes these things are all included in figuring on base percentage except reaching base by interference or obstruction.

OBP = H+BB+HBP divided by AB+BB+HBP+SAC. rule 10.21f excludes interference and obstruction.

So to answer your question walks and sacrifices are not considered an official time at bat.

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
OBR doesn't use the term official or unofficial AB. It is just states that a batter is not charged with an at bat for sacrifices, walks, HBP, and getting first base by interference or obstruction….

That concept really gave me some trouble when I started doing more than just keeping score. When I began doing statistics for the teams I scored for, I used the same terms I was taught growing up. “Official At Bat” and “Unofficial At Bat”. I’d never looked in the rule book to see how they were defined, though. I just knew what were and weren’t official at bats.

But once I’d starting doing the stats and began to start getting asked questions by parents and players who had no idea about such things, I started looking at the rules. I know, I should have done that earlier, but I didn’t have to explain anything to myself. When I first began looking at the rules, there was no such thing as a personal computer you could used a “FIND” to locate such things, so when I didn’t find official or unofficial at bats in the rulebook, I figgered I’d just missed it.

I was away from the game for a while, and when I finally got back into it, doing a “FIND” had become normal, and of course I looked once more in the rules for those elusive terms. When I couldn’t find them, I panicked! Good grief! Could it be that I was wrong for so many years?

Well, fortunately I eventually found what you’ve posted here, and I decided to make a few changes in what I was doing. Rather than use “Official/Unofficial At Bats”, I began using the phrase “Plate Appearances” for each time a player showed up at the plate and who’s at bat finished by him either being put out or reaching base. I also used the term “At Bats”, but made sure that every statistic for hitters had both terms listed, along with the items that made them different. For pitchers I used the term “Batters” rather than “PAs”, just because it seemed much easier.

I also grew up hearing official and unofficial at bat. I remember TV or radio play by play announcers talking about a player having no official time at bat since he walked in his first at bat.

When we hear the term unofficial, we just automatically know the batter reached by BB, HBP or had a Sac.

The computer has been a great tool for accessing the rules and to discuss scoring situations in forums like this.

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
…The computer has been a great tool for accessing the rules and to discuss scoring situations in forums like this.

Indeed it has!

One of the best things has been MLB’s willingness to made OBR readily available for any and all! The NCAA has done the same for at least the last decade too. The real stick-in-the-mud has been NFHS! It wasn’t until 2 years ago that they made an electronic copy of the rules available, but even then it was only available for a “fee”, and even then it was in a format that couldn’t be copy and pasted! This season though, I understand that while the electronic rules are still by fee only, they can be copied and pasted.

I know that doesn’t sound like a big deal, but what happens is, in places like this that talk 90%+ about HS baseball, most of the time rule quotes are from OBR, and they more often than not don’t match NFHS rules. Its ok for the umpires because most of them study the differences. But for those of us who don’t, the whole thing can easily become very confusing.