Safe or not?

What did the doctor say? Did he give him a full release?

Don't know. Doctors usually don't put hard deadlines on this type of thing. I doubt there was a formal release or a formal prohibition from playing. Typically a player will be told to rest for a week after taking this kind of anti-inflammatory and then work back into it gradually. There's a risk that further damage to the underlying problem will be masked by the anti-inflammatories. Odds are that the kid will be OK, but there was certainly a risk taken and with backs as we all know problems can become chronic. Historically kids who go down for injuries are treated pretty badly in our program so it is understandable that the parents would give their OK. Wally Pip is constantly brought up as an example to the players. Pitchers are told if they have a sore arm to go long toss, etc. No surprise then that we've had 4 players with partial UCL tears that I know of. One player who had a stress fracture in his back over the winter came back much quicker than recommended and was made an example of because he didn't come back quickly enough for them. He's a preseason all-american and hasn't been allowed to play but 2 innings at the end of a meaningless tournament.

Would you throw a kid 3-2/3 who hasn't picked up a ball in 2 weeks? Would you leave him in for around 25 pitches in his final inning when his velocity and command had obviously dropped off?

Are you being serious about how these coaches treat injuries? That is crazy.

Myself personally if this was one of my players I would be in constant contact with the parents to find out what a doctor was saying. I would follow everything the doctor said to do. Then he would be watched as he threw (mighe be watching from far away so he would be more honest with his facial expressions), get a couple of bullpens in and then turn him loose on the mound.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Would you throw a kid 3-2/3 who hasn't picked up a ball in 2 weeks? Would you leave him in for around 25 pitches in his final inning when his velocity and command had obviously dropped off?

no, that's crazy.

Well one of the parents came by and joked that they'd put the kid coming off the injury in just to keep from putting the preseason all-american kid in. A few minutes later there he was. There were a couple other kids available to throw in addition to the one the coach won't let play.

Did I mention that the right fielder had thrown well over 100 pitches the previous afternoon? He pulled himself after the first inning due to an injury of some sort.

This is the same coach who told everyone that when he came out to see a pitcher he wanted the pitcher to ask to keep going no matter what the pitcher was feeling - because the coach said he'd know if the pitcher needed to come out anyways.

He'd have a hard time doing everything our doctor says because our doctor says he should be fired and said so the moment he heard who our coach was. The doctor has a bit of experience in the area as he was the team doctor for a mlb team and still consults with them.

It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know that anyone after a lay up needs rehab to get back in teh game, and that includes a throwing program even if a shorter one for a few weeks.

As far as the statement from the coach, I would imagine that no coach wants to see a pitcher readily give over the ball and at least not go with a fight. A few weeks ago pitcher son got real dizzy during warmups in between inning, manager came to take him out, he said no way.

TPM,
Understand where you are coming from and agree. That's probably what he was trying to say. However, I'd much rather hear what the pitcher is really feeling along with a desire to keep going. The usual pattern is to not use pitchers much during their junior seasons so I haven't seen many pitchers go down with injuries as seniors. What I have seen is that several kids who got used a lot as seniors had arm problems soon after their senior season.

The sophmore with the back problem is going to be a good one so he'll see a lot of use during the season and off season for the next couple years and it'll be interesting to see how that turns out.

Since it's already done, I hope it was safe.

As a chronic back pain sufferer, I can say its good to take advantage of the good days you have. However, I'm 42 not 15 and I've got a degenerative disk problem not a back strain.

I hope the young man is OK...

JMOFF

I hear what you are talking about--a spinal tap gone bad when I was a teen damaged my back---then two years ago I broke my back and compressed everything at the base of the spine----I have had back problems since I was a teen-- and back strain damage can stay with you forever depending on the damage done--I know I can forcast weather better than those on the TV

quote:

The doctor has a bit of experience in the area as he was the team doctor for a mlb team and still consults with them.

CADad, from what I've read I agree with what you are saying.

But I'd like to comment about the bolded part.. He may have quite a bit of experience, but the last part means very little. There are many physicians who list themselves as being "team doctor for ___" or "consultant for ___" and the reality of it is they may have seen ONE athlete/patient from that team or that university. Sometimes those doctors and clinics actually PAY to be listed or to be allowed to list themselves as a team physician. Just had an athlete I know have ACL surgery a few weeks back who is actually a team doctor (as in an active provider) for at least one St. Louis professional team. He is also listed as a consultant for my university's football team. I had never heard of him and we had a couple players have ACL surgery this past year when I worked with them. He may very well be on our list of physicians, but our list includes several and our primary team doctors are not from St. Louis.

I'm not saying that is the case with this specific doctor; I just wanted to point out that being a "team physician for ___" isn't always completely accurate.

And I'll agree-- It sounds like that coach should be fired!

CADad, by corticosteroids, are you saying the kid was on a tapered dose of prednisone?
If so, I have never heard of that for a back strain.
As I think you know, they are usually used to treat/reduce nerve root irritation caused by swelling/inflammation around the nerve root.
If used for those reasons, it would seem more than unusual a doctor would clear to return without a very gradual increase in activity, overseen medically or by the PT.
This assessment leaves out the arm issues.

Could be he had a dose pack as a quick fix?

That wasn't the issue for me, it was no rehab, no throwing for 2 weeks and then back in the game.

But, while further thinking about it, is the coach responsible for that. Where does the patient/parent responsibility come in? Maybe that all parties are to blame.

Ouch.

TRhit,

As a teenager, wow that hurts. So sorry to hear that. Mine is genetics. My mother has the same problem. Had a MRI three weeks ago and all five disks in the lower back are bulging in or out in some direction, have a narrow spinal column so the three bulging in hit nerve quickly. My days of throwing BP appear to be over.

Back to the thread (no pun intended) I did the oral steriod pack thing about three weeks ago. I thought I had found the cure. I immediately went out and took care of some yard work issues that had gotten away, did some other inside chores, basically I over did it.

A couple of weeks later, the steroids have worn off and I'm right back where I was. I hope this doesn't happen to the young man in question. Those pills get rid of the inflammation but not the root cause, at least in my case.

I'm no doctor but I was basically crippled when I went in. I'm talking questionable control of bodily functions. I had to have an X-Ray, MRI and diagnosis of nerve pinching by bad disks before they gave me a steriod pack. I just hope this kid isn't getting / telling part of the story or he has something completely different...

Back when I had 'strains' it was ice, heat and rest. Later they invented Motrin and that helped A LOT. If he needs a steriod pack there is more to his story.

I was young and stupid once. I cut a cast off a broken elbow (non-throwing) so I could play in an intermural college fast pitch softball playoff game. To this day, that elbow still looks broken on an x-ray and my 'funny bone' is a 'weird pain bone'. I think we were in 'C' league. I did get the winning hit in the champioship game and pitched a complete game shut out. It was fun, but NOT WORTH IT.

The point is, I would've told anybody anything to play in a big high school game. The reason our children can't sign their own releases is because they lack the wisdom and life experiences to make intelligent decisions. They live for the moment.

I don't know this kid, or his circumstances but I just hope he doesn't do something that makes being able to sit at his desk job more than 30-45 minutes impossible in 15-25 years.

Sorry I went a little long and a little offtopic as well...

Allowing a kid to play after injury is definitely a difficult decision that has to be made by a parent, by a coach, an athletic trainer, or a doctor. They are all faced with weighing the potential risk for further injury or leading to other injuries. For the kid, it’s normally pretty simple-- let me play. While I like that mentality, they have to understand that sometimes playing through pain is not a good idea. I would hope everyone affiliated with sports understands there is a great deal of risk involved, but I obviously don’t feel that should stop someone from playing under normal circumstances.

As many of the regulars around here probably know, I am studying athletic training and will (hopefully) become a certified athletic trainer when I graduate. I’ve really always been one who isn’t really too afraid to tell it like it is. And sometimes that’s gotten me in trouble. I was accused a couple weeks ago by one of our athletes of being “Mr. Negativity” because I don’t sugarcoat things. She is currently going through a common injury that can be quite devastating and I told her several times when she would complain about the rehab that it wasn’t going to change very soon. Apparently, I needed to tell her that “everything would be fine; it will all work out great” but I’m not going to do that. Another one of our athletes (JV player) suffered a concussion last Friday or Saturday I believe. She wasn’t real happy to sit for one day at practice. She played a couple days later (not my decision nor one that I would necessarily agree with) and the team was beating the opponent 5-0 with about 4 minutes to in the game. She wanted to go back in and she wasn’t real straight about her symptoms. According to her, she didn’t have a headache, but her head hurt. And she informed me that “she wouldn’t get hurt.” The coach wasn’t going to put her back in anyway since it was a blowout and since she wasn’t real straight with us. I got to explain to her that a) she likely didn’t say she was going to get hurt when she got her concussion and b) it isn’t worth it. The game was a blowout, it’s a JV game, and it’s HIGH SCHOOL.

So I’ve gone off on a bit of a tangent, but let me see if I can piece it back together for you all. TRHit and JMoff both told stories about back injuries and how those can really affect your lives. JMoff also mentioned cutting a cast off to play in a game and how he has to deal with the consequences from that for the rest of his life. Futurecatcher27 recently had his career ended due to a back injury. What a player does today can and will positively or negatively affect what he can do tomorrow.

Remember baseball is a game. It’s meant to be fun. So go out and have fun, but remember to think about tomorrow too. “To get to 80, you have to get past 30 first.” It’s a game and sometimes you have to walk away..

Bulldog19,

No disrespect or questioning of what you said was intended.

But there is 'the other side' to all those great sports stories. My back has nothing to do with it. If I had been a good athlete, I'd probably be the Randy Johnson type. Mid-40's several back surgeries. Instead I'm mid-40's no back surgeries, but 297 wins behind and a desk job. Personally, I'd rather stand on the mound than sit behind a desk these days as its more comfortable to stand.

It is probably worth studying what happens to the athletes who play today and suffer tomorrow.

I'll give you a potential PhD thesis, "A Study of Former NFL Linemen in their 80's". It'll probably take you a few weeks to figure out that there is no such thing. If you change that to, "A Study of Former NFL Lineman in their 60's", you'll find some more guys out there, but you probably won't like what they say. If you try 50's the field might actually get thinner as you start to get into the steroid era and those guys didn't last long, but were bigger when they played.

Point is, 15 is too ****ed young to risk a lifetime of pain and suffering.

A JV player with a concussion who lies to play... I know this is hard, but that is the time to make an enemy. She will hate you, but when she has her first kid, you'll probably get a birth announcement and a thank you.

Not everyone who goes pro, goes pro in sports (or whatever that saying is).

quote:

Bulldog19,

No disrespect or questioning of what you said was intended.

But there is 'the other side' to all those great sports stories. My back has nothing to do with it. If I had been a good athlete, I'd probably be the Randy Johnson type. Mid-40's several back surgeries. Instead I'm mid-40's no back surgeries, but 297 wins behind and a desk job. Personally, I'd rather stand on the mound than sit behind a desk these days as its more comfortable to stand.

It is probably worth studying what happens to the athletes who play today and suffer tomorrow.

I'll give you a potential PhD thesis, "A Study of Former NFL Linemen in their 80's". It'll probably take you a few weeks to figure out that there is no such thing. If you change that to, "A Study of Former NFL Lineman in their 60's", you'll find some more guys out there, but you probably won't like what they say. If you try 50's the field might actually get thinner as you start to get into the steroid era and those guys didn't last long, but were bigger when they played.

Point is, 15 is too ****ed young to risk a lifetime of pain and suffering.

A JV player with a concussion who lies to play... I know this is hard, but that is the time to make an enemy. She will hate you, but when she has her first kid, you'll probably get a birth announcement and a thank you.

Not everyone who goes pro, goes pro in sports (or whatever that saying is).

I'm not sure if we aren't saying the same thing, but maybe I wasn't clear? I agree with everything you are saying. I'd much rather be behind the plate (can't stand people on the mound ) than sitting at a desk too. That's part of why I've gone into athletic training-- always something new and it's sports. Not sitting at a desk.

15 is WAY too young to risk lifetime injury. Does it happen, sure. If it can be prevented though, it better be!

As for the s****r player I mentioned, like I said wasn't my decision to let her play (I'm just a student after all). I don't care about making enemies with something like that. And coaches shouldn't be afraid of that either in similar situations.

I know what concussions can do. I know what head injuries can do (do I even need to point out the previous two weeks?) and they are very scary things. I've had concussions, and I've been in their shoes-- just wanting to play and doing whatever possible to play. Was it stupid-- heck yea!

So as coaches and parents, it is crucial that the point is driven home-- athletics are great! But there comes a time where the risk is just too much. And it ain't worth it.

To the best of my knowledge it was the dose pack. He saw the doctor on the Monday of that week and pitched on Saturday. They don't want you starting the dose pack on a partial dose so he wouldn't have started the dose pack before Tuesday of that week at the earliest meaning that he was still taking the prednisolone.

I think we were saying the same thing Bulldog 19. I'm probably not the one being clear.

CADad
...and at least my doc wouldn't have give me prednisolone (I think it was the same drug) unless I had something way more serious than a strain.

It's a total of 21 pills taken as follows:
6 pills the first day, 5 on day 2, 4 on day 3, 3 on day 4 (this is the day I thought I'd hit the jack pot), 2 on day 5, 1 on day 6.

By 5, I could've pitched 3 1/3 effectively...

By day 14, I was screwed again.

Point is, I'm not a doctor and don't know what I'm talking about except in a sample of one. I had to show an MRI that was bad to get an oral steriod treatment prescribed.

I hope the player in question is hurt, but not injured. I really hope it works for him and wasn't a temporary fix so he could go out and hurt himself worse while he just feels good.

Well the kid's back didn't hurt today but his arm did. Probably no big deal but no surprise either.

JMoff,
Yep, that sounds like a Medrol dose pack.

They brought the kid in with a lead in a game where a win probably would've put them in the playoffs. His arm was obviously dead and they lost the game. He may also have some "residual soreness" in his back.

BTW, I checked and it was a Medrol dose pack and he was finishing up the last dose on Saturday.