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16 replies

Safety Call

JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
16U USSSA tournament over the weekend. One of my typical long winded questions, which I appologize for in advance.

R3 initiates a straight steal of home. He goes in standing up, but batter swings (darned near decapitating R3) and bloops a single to right. Batter and R3 collide before batter leaves the box and they fall into the catcher, who was standing up to make tag, but didn't interfere with the batter. Batter reached first safely. R3 got up and safely touched home. Catcher got out of the way so R3 could touch plate.

Our coaches, thinking we were playing Fed, thought hitter should be out for a dangerous play (swinging at a pitch with runner coming in). A smaller, but no less lively crowd faction thought the runner should be out for not sliding.

I haven't looked this up myself, but thought this was a simple 'play on'. It was either a stupid call or somebody missed a sign and the runner should've slid, but he would've been out by 5' if the batter didn't hit the pitch.

Is there any kind of rule that says a batter can't swing to create a dangerous play? Should there have been a call on the runner for not sliding?

I did walk over and ask the tournament director which rules we were playing, which was American Baseball Association or something like that. I described the play and he thought it was play on.

I guess my question is really, do Fed or OBR have a rule about this kind of play?
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Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMoff:
Our coaches, thinking we were playing Fed, thought hitter should be out for a dangerous play (swinging at a pitch with runner coming in).


This sentence makes no sense. What would "playing FED" have to do with a nonexistant rule in any code?

I don't mean to bash a coach, but how can one take on the responsibilty of training and leading a group of young men and be so clueless?

Misunderstanding a rule is understandable, but believing there should be an out for undefined play and blaming that on FED is ludicrous. Does this coach have even a passing acquaintance with a rule book?
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
Actually, the coach is a well respected umpire in the area. He umpires baseball & softball tournaments in age groups through HS. He will occasionally do some of the HS scrimmages (for free) so the boys can play. He's actually very good on the ball/strike/safe/out stuff as I've seen him in action many times.

Our team is coached by a few dads (not me this particular weekend) and is made up of 17-18 sophomores at our high school. Just an opportunity to play ball, get some ABs and reps in the field.

I honestly don't know if he was arguing the no slide or the swing. I thought it was the swing, which is obviously not a rule. Why would a batter not be allowed to swing the bat?

If we think of it from the no slide perspective does that change your opinion on the play?
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMoff:


If we think of it from the no slide perspective does that change your opinion on the play?


No. Changing one nonexistant rule for another doesn't help.

And the coach being an umpire only makes it worse.

Again, a difference in opinion regarding an interpretation of a rule is to be expected. But believing in non-existant rules is unacceptable in any coach or umpire above T-ball.
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
I agree with the 'no must slide rule in any book' rule, but some of these tournaments apply rules on top of rules for 'safety'.

Back in my day a catcher standing with a baseball in front of home plate was a target. Failure to plant him into the backstop in an attempt to dislodge the ball was considered unacceptable effort.

For some old guy like me, frankly I wasn't sure how politically correct a society we'd become...

Out of morbid curiousity and because I apparently have no life, I actually pulled up the USSSA rules and looked for something. Bottom line, there is nothing there prohibiting this play.

Thanks again for the answering the question. You guys are a great source of information.

I appologize in advance for my next stupid question.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Doughnutman:
In JMoff's defense, tournaments in AZ/NV often have special rules enforced.

I have seen, in the tournament rules, a "have to slide" before as well as a "no head first slides to home". Kids get called out sliding into home when they slide past the plate and use their hand to touch it to avoid a tag.

Pretty silly.


JMoff needs no defense. He was simply reporting what he saw and heard.

Strange tournament rules have nothing to do with this. In the OP, the coach cites FED rules as the reason for his belief in the nonexistant "safety" rule. That's where everything began to head south.
Last edited by Jimmy03
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
The sadest part of this whole event was the temperature (45), the fact it had rained before we started and the lateness of game time (>5pm on Thanksgiving Sunday).

For the first time ever, as all the coaches were arguing, I offered my services as "official scape goat". If anyone got tossed, I was willing to leave peacefully as a designated 'surregate ejectee' so I could go home and warm up before the actual ending of the game.

Not that this stuff isn't important, but I live in AZ and my goodness, it was COLD...

Thanks again for you insights on the OP.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Doughnutman:
In JMoff's defense, tournaments in AZ/NV often have special rules enforced.

I have seen, in the tournament rules, a "have to slide" before as well as a "no head first slides to home". Kids get called out sliding into home when they slide past the plate and use their hand to touch it to avoid a tag.

Pretty silly.


I have no doubt that things like this occur all over the country. Well meaning idiots making local rules to "protect" kids.
"Have to Slide"= lawsuit in the making. Sliding is the most dangerous action in baseball and the protect the kids people want to legislate them to do the very thing that causes the most injuries.
"No headfirst slides at home" is not that terrible a rule but that should still be a coach/player thing. Sliding headfirst into a guy with gear on isn't smart. Sliding headfirst to get down faster and avoid a player diving trying to tag you shouldn't be a problem.
"Kids get called out sliding into home when they slide past the plate and use their hand to touch it to avoid a tag"= stupid. Even LL that doesn't allow headfirst slides in 12 and under has no problem with sliding normally and reaching out to touch the base. That is good sliding technic.
If more coaches spent more time teaching proper sliding technics and how to defense a slide legally and safely we wouldn't have stupid rules like this.
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
trojan skipper

The coach is a formal major league pitcher. I won't use his name, but total and complete idiot is appropriate.

I hold back a little because I have given many a sign that wasn't seen by the hitter. It was clear they were stealing home, but it wasn't clear the batter had the OK to swing.

On a side note, the only thing the coach yelled at anyone about the play was R3 for not sliding head first into home on a live pitch. Not the worst thing but not the best thing when the hitter swings.

My take away from all of this was that our LHP, in the stretch, without a whole lot going on between the ears, requires a constant reminder to actually glance at the runner at third once in a great while. He didn't look in ten pitches and they finally took a shot. I can't blame them.

A thumbs up to professor Taylor's comments about sliding. It isn't taught. Mainly because coaches don't/can't demonstrate it. When I was still coaching, every couple of months I'd turn on the sprinklers in the OF for 15-20 minutes during IF drills. I'd have the boys take off their spikes and practice sliding. On a hot night with wet grass, it was always fun and a good opportunity to slide 10-15 times each, practicing all different kinds of slides (feet first, feet first with reach, head first, stand-up, etc). It was also pretty safe on the grass, without spikes and the grass wet.

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