Sandy Koufax

Nice pic justbaseball.

The two things I noticed.

I think with the higher mound he was able to extend and flatten his leg extension and at the same time still have a downward "plane" of the ball. With todays lower mound I wonder what "plane" his ball would be coming in on.

I like the grip he is using. For those experts out there, what is he throwing?

Don't look at the grip, look how deep the ball is in his hand ... It's a version of a change-up ... then look at the effort and realize how deceptive that pitch is going to be.

He was always one of the greatest.

Just....I liked Sandy during my days as a Cubs fan.

Sandy pitched during the eras of Don Drysdale; Bob Gibson; Juan Marichal; and, later, Denny McLain (he was the last mlb pitcher to win 31 games).

Besides the obvious skills of these pitchers and the teams (Dodgers were one of the premier teams for a long, long time during the Drysdale/Koufax era) that they pitched for, they had an additional advantage that pitchers today don't have...the mound was about 16-18 inches higher than the level of home plate!

Could you imagine Randy Johnson pitching from such a mound?

rz1

Sandy observations based upon what I see in the picture...which can be deceptive from the camera angle.

But here goes:

Based upon the pitch he is throwing...grip is a knuckle ball.

The body language is such that the dynamic load point is being maintained slightly behind the rotation point as he is completing the power stride (fierce thrust forward with the lower part of the body).

That creates the rhythm to the batter that he is going to throw a FB and his entire body in the photo is projecting an off-speed pitch.

The only thing I would have as a concern is the heel hitting with the instep of the foot open to his target.

I think that will force him to fall off to the right instead of finishing up in the ready-to-field position due to the over-rotation it causes.

It also could cause the ball to end up high in the zone because his arm will flatten out as the jolting effect from his heel hitting in effect stops the smooth forward momentum of his throwing jobe.

But like I said it's tough to really know for sure because the camera angle can play tricks with what you see.

Sandy had so many flaws.

His load points - his stride - his step.
His grip - his angle.
His rotation.
His leg lift.
His leg drop.
His balance and rhythm.
His hat tilt.
His nostril hair.
His pant size.

Then - when he was finished overlooking all of his faults - he beat the cr** out of everybody he ever played against.

LOL

itsinthegame

You're absolutely right...which is why his career was cut short...which ended his ability to continue to beat the cr*ap out of everybody.

He just learned to pitch with all of his flaws, but the results were devestating to his elbow/arm.

quote:

Based upon the pitch he is throwing...grip is a knuckle ball.

RR, I don't think Koufax threw a knuckleball unless it went 99mph. Koufax was known to have huge hands and fingers so that might be creating an illusion in the photo.
If you have not read it, the book "Koufax" has an awfully good chapter on his view of mechanics, stride, balance, etc. Are those things important when you throw anywhere from 95-10????? and break a curve off the table.
As was quoted in his biography, with many of his pitches, "it sounded like a strike."

infielddad

One version of the knuckleball is held with the fingernails which is the way Hoyt Wilheim held it. But he could also be throwing a knucklecurve as an off speed version of his hard curve. I'm just interpreting what I see in the picture.

Someone else might interpret differently.

This is my MOC1 special...JMO

quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod:
itsinthegame

You're absolutely right...which is why his career was cut short...which ended his ability to continue to beat the cr*ap out of everybody.

He just learned to pitch with all of his flaws, but the results were devestating to his elbow/arm.

The only devestating thing was his pitching performance. To the hitters he faced.

12 years in MLB.

I'll take it.

quote:

But he could also be throwing a knucklecurve as an off speed version of his hard curve. I'm just interpreting what I see in the picture.

RR, maybe that is why he is in the Hall. The hitters thought that was a "knuckleball" coming...and it wasn't.

infielddad

Guess he would have struck me out on that one...no doubt.

itsinthegame

only five or six of it was outstanding. the rest was iffy.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/koufasa01.shtml

Ramrod,

I will send my condolences to Sandy lamenting his miserable MLB career. LOL.
With a copy of the critique and the medical speculation as well.

Get real.

What made him special was his God Given talent and his work ethic which brought it to the fore

itsinthegame

Everyone is always saying that as-a-batter Bonds sucks because he doesn't show up in the post season...

Check out Sandy's postseason stats...

Pitched well but not well enough to be considered "the best".

Question for you, who is the best post season pitcher IYO?

For me...Bob Gibson

Be back later....peace

Quite frankly, I couldnt care less.

All I do know is that I wouldnt speculate on injuries - unless I was a doctor.

And I wouldnt criticize someone unless I lived a day in their shoes and accomplished what they did - at a minimum.

And I wouldnt give scouts advice - because I never scouted.

And I wouldnt give coaching advice if I never coached.

And I sure as heck wouldnt give playing advice unless I actually put a uniform on and played the game.

I think it is great when people share their experiences - whatever they may be.

But I also think that speculation - presented as fact - is a very bad thing and is usually just bs opinion.

Don't recall Sandy throwing the knuckler.

Sure his career may have gotten off to a slow start. But a slow start for a pitcher is not unusual. Look at Nolan. And there are other examples.

But when that career took off, Koufax was something else. And yes, the elbow cut his career short. But think of the accomplishments, in such a short career, that led to the HOF.

A gentleman ballplayer, who needed no roid's to achieve.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod:
itsinthegame

Everyone is always saying that as-a-batter Bonds sucks because he doesn't show up in the post season...

Check out Sandy's postseason stats...

Pitched well but not well enough to be considered "the best".

RR, okay, I checked his postseason stats. Here they are:

Hmmmmmmmm. 0.95 ERA in 57 innings giving up 36 hits and striking out 61. Not sure I understand the point you are trying to make about his postseason. If I recall right, in 65 he came back on 2 days rest to clinch the WS.
If I'm getting to manage, Koufax is my first pick...and I am telling him to stay away from the knuckler. I think you are way off base questioning anything about the baseball talent/ability/effort/desire of Sandy Koufax.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Hmmmmmmmm. 0.95 ERA in 57 innings giving up 36 hits and striking out 61.

What a slouch!

infielddad

Amen to that!!!

And Sandy is still around in spring training teaching the young pitchers

TR, good thing. Got to have someone to teach that "knuckler!!!!"
Texan,

I betcha Sandy could have struck out more guys - (maybe all of them) - if he had better mechanics.

To my knowledge, Koufax didn't throw a knuckleball. What that likely is is his curveball grip. It looks like he has his middle finger on the seam, ready to pull down on the seam so as to add topspin to the ball. His index finger is up out of the way since it isn't used to throw a curveball.

The oddness of his grip (combined with a near-vertical forearm at the release point) could explain the remarkable effectiveness of his curveball. It may have helped him put more spin on the ball.

Thanks for posting the pic.

If you are really interested in Koufax's motion, I have posted to my web site a draft of a frame-by-frame breakdown of Koufax's motion...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SandyKoufax.pdf

I view Koufax as something of an enigma.

On the one hand, his motion looks really good if you break it down. It's very clean and compact.

On the other hand, Koufax had horrible control problems for the first half of his career and ended up retiring due to elbow problems. However, Koufax fixed his control problems by not trying to throw to hard and I suspect that his elbow problems resulted from 1) combination of overuse and 2A) congenital circulatory problem and 2B) the use of steroids and other treatments that compromised his body's ability to heal.

All in all, I think Koufax has a lot to teach us about how to pitch.

Coach Chris

One of his biggest attributes was the hand size and length of his fingers--Pedro has the same plus factor---they can grip the ball in ways that you and I cannot

Sandy's mental aggressiveness was certainly one of his biggest attributes. For a guy who seemed somewhat quiet and peaceful most of the time, he was an intense competitor on the inside. And a VERY aggressive pitcher (though not quite in the same manifestation that Drysdale exhibited).

And IITG, he might have even pitched a perfect game, huh? Oh wait, he did do that...

quote:

To my knowledge, Koufax didn't throw a knuckleball.

Coach, I am betting that was a shared perception amongst NL hitters from 1959 to 1967!
If he did, he the first to get it up to 99mph.
How could we even be discussing this? Koufax was fastball/fasterball and fastest ball with enormous movement combined with a breaking ball that was one of the best ever.

A curve ball is held in the fingers, including a knuckle-curve.

In the photo, the ball is buried back in his hand like a palm ball which was a popular method for throwing the change back at that time.

By having the index finger arched, you can vary the pressure point on the ball and create movement in multiple planes on your change without modification of your basic grip.

With the ball buried that deep into the palm, you can't get the speed of rotation that you need on a curve.

Look again guys.

I think you guys are giving Sandy more pitches than he threw

Just got back to this. I cannot believe that this thread took the turn it did. Knuckleball? Geez, gimme a break.

Thanks for stayin' on it infielddad.

"The turning point of his career came in spring training in 1961. Backup catcher Norm Sherry told him he should concentrate on throwing strikes rather than breaking the sound barrier, and to be more varied and selective with his pitches. "Sandy, you could solve your control problem if you'd just try to throw the ball easier," Sherry said. "Just get it over the plate. You've still got enough swift on it to get the hitters out."

Though he had received that advice before, this time the message penetrated. "In the past, I'd try to throw every pitch harder than the last one," Koufax said. "From then on I tried to throw strikes and make them hit the ball. The whole difference was control. Not just controlling the ball, but controlling myself," too."

Amazing...

in my original post I said you really can't be sure as the camera angle can play tricks with what you are really seeing.

I said the grip looks like a knuckler, though I never heard of Koufax ever throwing one.

It could be a palmball changeup, and as someone said here it could be a CB with the index finger first knuckle laying against the ball as the middle finger and thumb prepares to provide rotation. Who knows? But prima facia the grip looks like a knuckleball.


I stated what I see in the picture...

Apparently you didn't read my previous post where the point I was trying to make with the post season stats was in reference to how the two men are viewed, Bonds versus Koufax.

It really had nothing to do with stats of either player.

No one knows the incalculable influence that a player Bonds or Koufax, has in a series, whether they have a good series or not. There presence alters the way the opponent manages a game. The point is that Koufax and Bonds are those kind of players, but the opinions here give no credit to Bonds at all for his contribution to that side of the game.

Itsinthegame, based upon your post most of the non-players, non-managers, and non-coaches here have no right to voice an opinion here about a players career, his performances or his life...except or unless his name is Barry Bonds, then all is fair game. Don't be a hypocrite.

Unfortunately, I had to leave and wasn't able to complete the tread of the point I was trying to make.

LOL

You are so boring.

LOL

itsinthegame
A truculent response

RR, not sure I understand. This is what you had posted about Koufax:

"Check out Sandy's postseason stats...

Pitched well but not well enough to be considered "the best".

So I checked his stats and darn, I thought they were with "the best."
The impression I had from the prior post was that you felt Koufax was a negative in terms of post season play.
Current post seems to suggest he was a positive and influenced not only the outcome but the way the game was played. I can certainly agree with this latter assessment.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod:
The point is that Koufax and Bonds are those kind of players, but the opinions here give no credit to Bonds at all for his contribution to that side of the game.

The only credit Bonds should receive is from the Pharmaceutical Industry. He gets the gold medal. Barely nipping McGwire, Sammy and Rafael "The Truth" Palmeiro.

Merck, Pfizer and a few others owe him.

TRhit made a point that is all to often not made into such a big factor by scouts & coaches. I have seen this time and time again. It is not the height of the pitcher that matters; It is the size or length of his fingers. I know there are exceptions (but not many). Look at some of the shorter gas throwers. Oswalt, Pedro they all have really long fingers for their bodies.