Scenario Opinion....

Is the goal to win?  If yes, then play best lineup.  By information you give, Sr doesn't play.

Are you a coach? As a parent it's a waste of time to get caught up in this stuff. There's no need to get involved in something where you have zero control.

I agree with Go. Why would you start a player just because he is a senior? If you are trying to create the best program you can, to build on the future and prepare your best athletes to compete, why on earth would someone earn a spot because of their age? Now, if all things are equal (meaning the senior is as good a player as the F/So, then you could maybe justify giving him the spot), but it doesn't sound like that is the case.

I guess I'm sensitive to this because it's just like our program. We have very few productive seniors and the juniors are even worse. The best prospects are the sophomores and freshmen, but most of the seniors will still get a starting spot. It really is a mind-boggling approach to the game.I don't just mean that the F/So are the better athletes. They have a much better understanding of the game. They understand crucial situations and are smart players. Most of the juniors and seniors are still playing station-to-station ball.  

Put your best players on the field in ways that make your team the best. Make the senior your bullpen catcher so he can still be a part of the team. Explain the situation and hopefully he will accept his role. If not, then he will solve the problem for you.

There are times a senior provides leadership a younger player may not that balances your perceived difference in talent. This is especially true at catcher where he is likely dealing with pitchers who are juniors and seniors.

I also found often times the perception the younger player was a better talent wasn't necessarily the case. They had never proved it at the high school level, A 14u or 15u travel stud doesn't always mean he's a better high school player than the senior.

I was the Catching Coach last season.  That is the only reason I even bothered to rank them.  I have not intention of getting caught up in the mess, my kid is one of them, but I don't stick my nose in when it comes to making those decision and it will be what it will be.  I did not list a third option, which would have been an obvious choice for most baseball people, and that is to let them all fight for the spot and may the best player win.

Trying to think outside the box, the only way I could justify part of option one, is that by letting the JR be the starting C on JV, is that he stays a little more game ready....but I personally don't like that, and won't ever know because I won't be asking....lol

There is some other information to consider.

1.  The senior catcher, was he the starter last year?

2.  Is the Senior a good leader.

3.  Is the team as a whole better with the catcher behind the plate?

4.  Is the coach Planning to make the Freshman the Starting Catcher next year and transition the other catchers to the field, thus giving him a strong future?

Very easy to say, "Best kid plays".  However, as a Head Coach I know for a fact that is not always how it goes.  There are sometimes that talent isn't the most important thing for the "good" of the team.  Sometimes it is leadership, sometimes its because a kid might not be as good but possesses the 1 thing you need at that position.

Sorry kandkfunk I am going to pick on you here a bit.  After reading your post I immediately thought sounds like the parent of the freshmen.  Went to your profile and confirmed that to be the case.

I think how you see your current situation is how many freshmen parents see it.  I know I did.  My son was a super star in my eyes and these older guys simply weren't that good.  I didn't figure it out that first year,  figured it out more last year and now that my son is a junior I totally get it.

While I couldn't see it then in the moment looking back my son (who is committed to a top 50 D1 program) was ill equipped to compete against 18 year old men as a 14 year old boy.  Physically and mentally there is a ton of growth that takes place, so even though he might have been more skilled the coach made the right call playing the older boys.

IMO even the truly elite 14-15 year old will have their struggles competing with boys four years older than them.  Thus I think parents who have been through it can say the Sr gets the start by default in a lot of cases.  Not entitled per se but the older player gets the benefit of the doubt in most programs.

My question is why you would consider taking a JV slot with a Jr unless he WILL be the starting varsity catcher when he's a SR and he would need the reps now that he won't otherwise get.

My thought would be to use the So as your starter, the Sr. in the pen and as a backup, and start the FR on JV.  If performance dictates a call-up of the FR during the year (either one of the So/Sr aren't performing well enough to support need), do it.

I get loyalty to the Sr. and if you want to keep him on varsity for that reason, so be it, but for me, as a coach, my future (and perhaps present) is in the Fr/So behind the dish, so let the best contribute on varsity now with sights set on him starting/rotating with the Fr, who can get a year under his belt on JV this season.

So for me, Option 3 is:

So - Starting Varsity

Sr - Backup/pen Varsity

FR - Starting JV

Jr - Gift card to the LAX store

Another factor that could come into it is hitting vs. defense.  On some teams you might need the best receiver behind the plate, even if he doesn't hit well.  In other situations you need production on offense and you can overlook mediocre defense.  Or, if your starting pitchers are also position players,  it could be that you'll put the best defensive catcher behind the plate and DH for him.

IEBSBL, "NO" to question 1-3, and probably a "yes" to #4, definitely agree. I can only remember the SR catcher catching in 1 pre-season game last year and that is it.  The FR is the younger brother of a very good catcher that graduated 5 yrs ago.  Last yr the HC was already penciling in the FR as the V starter without ever having seen him play, looks like that may be the plan.

JCG, good point.  Last year the SR catching was lights out on defense, but they DH'd for him all season, except for a certain pitching scenario, where he was then allowed to swing

Nuke, I'm pretty much in agreement with your outlook, except I have the JR as the back up and showing the SR the LAX try-out dates...or for our area, CREW is a little more popular! 

RJM, in this particular case, the SR offers absolutely nothing to the mix.  He is a really good kid, and I like him personally, just not cut out to be "the guy" behind the plate

Very few 14yr freshman can compete at Varsity level even if they have better skills. the sheer size, strength and game speed is much higher then what they have had to compete against. as a catcher this problem will be magnified much more then for an outfielder.

I would also say for the vast majority of freshmen (at least in our area) they would be better served for themselves to be playing JV for a year then to be rushed to Varsity.

Just my opinion as a father but mine had a similar situation last year - I honestly believe he would have been one of the top 9 hitters for the V team...but he spent the whole season at JV in the 3 or 4 hole and continued to develop, earned respect of the upper classmen and had a great year. I have no doubt he will be a V starter this year as Soph and will be much more prepaired for it.

The coach had it right for the big picture even if it most people weren't smart enough to see it!!

I echo RJM, IEBSBL and Backstop.  We have a particularly strong freshman class this year when it comes to showing developed skill sets.  So, a few will get looks to join V.  But how is a young new "prospect" going to perform when he steps in against much older kids?  We just don't know.  And the season is short.  If we bring up the freshman and find he's not ready, are we doing more damage than good?  We have a senior who's swing is stiff and uncomfortable and he is just quirky with everything he does.  Definitely doesn't stack up on the "mechanics" check boxes.  The casual observer or even coach at practice would pick the freshman every time.  But that senior is a proven gamer.  We know he will perform in big games against the best the opposition has to throw at us.  We have another senior infielder who doesn't move well enough and is not as fluid and polished as some of the incoming newbies.  But, again, he will make all the plays in the toughest situations.  Both seniors battled on the football field against some of the best opposing players.  There will be no intimidation.  There are countless other factors that come into play as well when considering how to put the best TEAM on the field.    

It's all good backstop. I can handle being called out. You are correct that my kid is one of the Freshman. But, my other one is a junior and I know these kids on and off the field. I know who the leaders are on the team and it's not the Juniors or Senior. Coach is doing a good job of trying to make them be accountable and become leaders, but only one of the seniors really has it in him. The actual leader of the team is a sophomore who played Varsity last year as a Freshman and earned all league honors. There will be 3-4 sophomores in the starting lineup this year. Most of the juniors will end up on JV. At many other schools a junior who can't earn a varsity spot would be cut.

My son has already played with all of these older kids over the summer and fall and handled himself just fine. I'm not saying I think he should hands down be on varsity or that I think he is a superstar. He has a lot of learning and maturing to do. But, given our high school situation (I won't give details because it would be very easy to figure out the program I am talking about) I actually think he will play Freshman and maybe some JV and he will be one of the leaders of that group (even though JV will contain some juniors). No matter where he lands, he will play hard, learn and be grateful for the opportunity.

What I am saying is that a kid should not get a position just because of their age. If there are other non-playing contributions they bring to the team, then those need to be weighed along with ability. That information was not provided by the OP.

BTW - hubs is a former HS coach so I get it. Coaches have a tough job and it's easy for us parents to sit around and talk about ideal situations. We aren't the ones who have to look at those kids every day or who get to deal with the angry parents. We actually have several friends and other family members who have also been HS coaches and many left the profession because of the politics of parents. Some of these guys were very talented and it's a shame that the pressure from parents forced them out. That's the beauty of these somewhat anonymous bulletin boards right? So we can all get our thoughts out there and have open discussions with others without having to cause undue stress on our kids or their coaches.  

LH, can you explain further?  First statement sounds like SR only played one game but second statement sounds like he played quite a bit.  Sorry... confused but interested. 

lhd,

You said you were the catching coach “last” season. Does that mean you’re no longer the catching coach? Since you were an asst, did the VHC share his thoughts and plans about the catchers, and if he did, what did he have to say?

All I’m saying is, in the end there’s only 1 opinion that matters, and hopefully that opinion and its basis will be shared. We each have our own perspectives on these things, and that’s one big reason there’s a lot of “2^nd guessing”.

Originally Posted by IEBSBL:

There is some other information to consider.

1.  The senior catcher, was he the starter last year?

2.  Is the Senior a good leader.

3.  Is the team as a whole better with the catcher behind the plate?

4.  Is the coach Planning to make the Freshman the Starting Catcher next year and transition the other catchers to the field, thus giving him a strong future?

Very easy to say, "Best kid plays".  However, as a Head Coach I know for a fact that is not always how it goes.  There are sometimes that talent isn't the most important thing for the "good" of the team.  Sometimes it is leadership, sometimes its because a kid might not be as good but possesses the 1 thing you need at that position.

I found out the hard way that there are always some things that no one other than the VHC knows, and that’s what makes his perspective the best one. Now he may or may not use the information he has the best way or in a way that everyone agrees with, but that’s the way it is.

Yeah sorry..LAST years SR was lights out.  This yr's SR, last years JR, is just a non-factor as a player

Not coaching this year, coaching my youngest, Lefthook2, in LL.

as I said before, based on the HC relationship with the FR brother, and parents, he was penciling in the FR as "the guy" for the V program without ever having watched him play.  He knows that this yr's SR catcher is not good, that's why he never saw an inning of season play last year.

Would agree, but this HC knows "0" about catching. Until I worked with the catchers last year, they catching core never had a catching coach since at least 2009.  Personally, which I know doesn't count for squat, but I feel this HC just does not perceive the C as a major factor in his game plan.  

the bolded is a comment that leads me to think - WTF or maybe you are just teasing us!! How couldn't the catcher be a major factor in any game plan?? I mean he is only involved in every pitch!!

Are you saying the coach doesn't consider catcher as a major factor because he doesn't think catching is important (scary) or because he has already made his decision?

Since you only gave 2 options where the senior was the starter, I am assuming you were aiming for some type of response (sorry if I missed it up the thread). If the decision already seems to have been made by the only person who really counts, then what exactly are you looking for? It sounds like, from your posts, he is going with the Freshman. Do you disagree?

As others have mentioned, in general, I'd say it would be difficult for a FR to physically outperform an experience senior catcher, not to mention the leadership aspects. So, if it is close, I'd say the senior gets the nod. In general, I'd say the great majority of FR would do well to play FR or JV ball.

At my son's school, there is no senior (or FR) catcher and basically my son (a soph.) and a junior are the only two real catchers in the program. My son has worked hard this winter on his arm and body conditioning and doing optional workouts to demonstrate his skill and ethic whereas the Jr. is a fine catcher but has a long-established reputation for being a gamer but not a hardworker outside of games. I'm hoping that will be the difference in terms of playing time but we'll see.

Good luck.

kandk, I am saying that this HC, IMO, doesn't really care who he has behind the dish as long as they are breathing.  Two season ago the V squad lost a lot of close games on runs that scored because our catcher just wasn't a good blocker, but he stuck with him because he was a SR.  Last year we won a lot of 1 run games because last years SR catcher did not give up a single run on a ball in the dirt.  I was hoping the HC would realize how big a difference a solid catcher makes, not only to the overall team, but for the confidence of the pitchers.  

I am not looking for a specific answer, just throwing out the 2 options for opinions, because the option of letting all the cathcers fight it out is not in play

"Better" is often an elusive and subjective judgment among baseball players, especially catchers, who are evaluated across so many dimensions--receiving, blocking, handling pitchers, controlling the running game, hitting, leadership.

Nearly everybody on the bench of every high school team is "better" at something than someone on the field.

Ranking multiple players is even more elusive and more subjective.  It's possible the best overall choice may not be the best at any one particular attribute.  As others have pointed out, only one person's opinion matters in determining how to weight and grade all the relevant factors.

old_school, I kid you not.  With the HC being a former Minor League Pitcher, you'd think he would have learned to appreciate a good catcher.  During LH's So and Jr year, the catchers at the time NEVER received catching specific instruction

I am going back to your original post.  I agree with what others have said regarding sometimes hard to judge catchers etc.  But let's just assume you have them ranked properly.  To me there is only one answer again assuming you are correct.  Soph starts on varsity.  Frosh starts on JV.  Senior backs up on Varsity.  Find another position for junior.  Clearly junior has no future behind the plate.  The freshman and sophomore will always be ahead of him.  Perhaps the senior could play another position as well as back up?  But bottom line is my best catcher is going to catch.  Period.  And to be honest if he is also a pitcher who pitches a lot I might be tempted to bring up the frosh as well as a back up.  Again taking your word for the fact that the frosh and soph are far better than the jr. and sr. 

Left hook, it's awful that he views the position of catcher like that, especially with his background. My son has said more than once, "my job is to make my pitcher look good".  It is a thankless, abusive position and I think that those who love it have a screw loose.

 Why would you think catcher's have a screw loose....because they are the only one's on the field that have to dress in armor from head to toe KNOWING they are going to get pummeled by the ball and maybe a bat or two and willingly jump up to take their place behind the plate with air blocking/heat trapping gear, and an oven on their head in 90+ degree weather...what would make you think they have a screw loose?

(yeah, my kid is one of the crazy one's too *sigh*)

It's for reasons of this thread that you cannot compare a kid who started ALL four years on varsity and another player different team,program, state, started on varsity for two years.  School size, program, schedule strength and HS head coach value differences of "playing seniors." You can look at recruiting websites where some players who started  2 years on  HS varsity are now on D1 college rosters.

Haha, yep, then after that they hop in the car grinning, "check out this awesome bruise!" 

"You can actually SEE the stitches IN the bruise, how cool is that?!?!?!?!"

Funny stuff! I guess we all have our quirks. on of the coaches of my sons travel squad was a pitcher and high round draft pick out of school, 4th round I believe...he is relentless on his catchers, frame it, block it, stay down, be calm....but at least he appreciates them!!!

Not to change the topic, but...

You have to appreciate good catchers.  Many former catchers become coaches and managers. Maybe more than any other position.  In many cases the catcher is the most intelligent player on a team.  Look up MLB managers and you will see many former catchers.

I believe this year 57% of managers where catchers!

I'm guessing the teams not very good if a freshman is really the best starter.  I can see the freshman being the most gifted but starting would be tough.  We had a catcher that was a 1st round pick at our school that played 2nd u til junior year and was starter last two years.  That said play the one that helps you win.

They have always had a big role in the broadcast booth as well.

Originally Posted by lefthookdad:

…Two season ago the V squad lost a lot of close games on runs that scored because our catcher just wasn't a good blocker, but he stuck with him because he was a SR.  Last year we won a lot of 1 run games because last years SR catcher did not give up a single run on a ball in the dirt…

Its posts like this one which have made me so obsessive about keeping score and tracking as many stats as possible.

Just so I’m sure we’re on the same page, are you talking about the catcher’s ability to block with a runner on 3^rd or his ability to block period? I checked our catcher last season and there were only 23 pitches the entire season with him behind the plate with a runner on 3^rd, and he blocked all but 1. The previous season he blocked 34 of 39 with a runner on 3^rd. How do those numbers reconcile with yours?

I have heard it time and time again -- "coaches jobs are on the line so they play the best players so they can win." 

However, at the HS level that is just not always true.  First, the coach's day job is usually a teacher.  The stipend they get for coaching is generally too small to be life altering if they are "fired" from coaching.  Second, the "talent" is seen thru their eyes.  They may value seniority, friendships, etc.

So the situation in the OP may make zero sense.  It wouldn't be the first time. 

Originally Posted by Golfman25:

I have heard it time and time again -- "coaches jobs are on the line so they play the best players so they can win." 

However, at the HS level that is just not always true.  First, the coach's day job is usually a teacher.  The stipend they get for coaching is generally too small to be life altering if they are "fired" from coaching.  Second, the "talent" is seen thru their eyes.  They may value seniority, friendships, etc.

So the situation in the OP may make zero sense.  It wouldn't be the first time. 

Some years back our coach put a Fr on the V and didn’t play him a lot, which was really strange because this particular coach had a very long history of not putting many Fr on the V, and if he did, they were definite studs and played. At the time I couldn’t figger out what the heck was going on because although this kid was ok as a Fr, he certainly wasn’t the best Fr or Soph in the program.

After the boy graduated I asked the coach why on earth he did that and got the answer. Turns out the boy’s older brother had gone out for the team and was kicked off because of lies that were told. He said it was a small thing he could do for the boy’s family to make up for what had happened, even in a small way, and it hurt no one because he kept no one off the team. As luck would have it, the boy ended up being one of the best players ever to play in the program.

Since then I don’t question who gets cut or who plays because I know it’s likely I don’t know everything that’s going on.