Should this be considered an error: Curve in the dirt for a swing and miss strike three. Catcher throws it into RF but the runner only makes it to first.
If that is an error on the catcher, how do you enter it into GC? I couldn’t find an option to enter an error on the play.
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In general, if the ball hits the dirt BEFORE the catcher, it should be scored as a wild pitch, even if it is a ball the catcher should normally block.
But, if the catcher successfully gathered up the ball, and has plenty of time to throw out the runner with an ordinary effort throw, it should be scored a strikeout / E2.
It's been a while since I did gamechanger - not sure of the specific keystrokes involved there.
@T_Thomas posted:In general, if the ball hits the dirt BEFORE the catcher, it should be scored as a wild pitch, even if it is a ball the catcher should normally block.
But, if the catcher successfully gathered up the ball, and has plenty of time to throw out the runner with an ordinary effort throw, it should be scored a strikeout / E2.
It's been a while since I did gamechanger - not sure of the specific keystrokes involved there.
This is exactly how I was trying to score it but they only give an option to score an error if he goes additional bases.
It's been a while too for me but what I recall for that situation is giving F2 the E on a passed ball and making a note of the actual events for the coach and anyone watching online.
Edit - Ok, what Google said.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Should this be considered an error: Curve in the dirt for a swing and miss strike three. Catcher throws it into RF but the runner only makes it to first.
If that is an error on the catcher, how do you enter it into GC? I couldn’t find an option to enter an error on the play.
We used to joke that GC was invented by a catcher because it’s so difficult to score a passed ball or an error on the catcher.
@T_Thomas posted:In general, if the ball hits the dirt BEFORE the catcher, it should be scored as a wild pitch, even if it is a ball the catcher should normally block.
Not to pull this off topic, but..... the only pitches I count as wild are ones that hit the dirt before the plate, go into/beyond the batter’s box (either box, in the air or the dirt), or are above the batter’s head. Anything else that gets by the C is a passed ball, even the curve that ricochets off the plate like it was shot out of a cannon....
It’s a wild pitch:
The Official Scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, the Official Scorer shall score a strikeout and a wild pitch.
You can only score one error per base. The dropped 3rd strike wild pitch allowed the batter to become a runner who ultimately reached 1B safely. The actions of the catcher could have saved an error, just like a nice dig by a first baseman often saves an error for infielders who throw balls in the dirt , if the out is recorded. But weather or not the catcher should have made the throw or the first baseman should have made the dig is irrelevant. If only the one base was given up it’s the original error, the wild pitch, that gets recorded.
Thanks everyone. The no error on the throw makes sense. I’ve been keeping consistent with the ball in the dirt being a wild pitch this year, even if it is an easy ball to block. A few parents have been pretty vocal that they should be passed balls. I’m guessing because one catcher blocks everything and the other gets about 50% of them.
@adbono posted:We used to joke that GC was invented by a catcher because it’s so difficult to score a passed ball or an error on the catcher.
That’s funny, but maybe true??? Ever seen someone score a game and not be familiar with GC, a lot of line drives and fly balls will end up being caught by the catcher. Talk about speed, that dude must have one heck of a 60 yard time to catch a line drive!
Also don’t even get me started on GC’s QABs criteria. Completely useless
@22and25 posted:It’s a wild pitch:
The Official Scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, the Official Scorer shall score a strikeout and a wild pitch.
Notice it says "and is not handled by the catcher"
I fully agree that if the ball bounces through the cstchers legs and he chases it to the backstop and makes a desperation throw , call it a wild pitch.
But if it short hops into the mitt, and the catcher has a routine throw to first to retire the runner by 10 feet, and airmails it into right field, its an E2.
Same situation as the first baseman picking that throw in the dirt to save the error on infielder, but then throwing it into left field trying to backpack runner on 2nd.
@T_Thomas posted:Notice it says "and is not handled by the catcher"
I fully agree that if the ball bounces through the cstchers legs and he chases it to the backstop and makes a desperation throw , call it a wild pitch.
But if it short hops into the mitt, and the catcher has a routine throw to first to retire the runner by 10 feet, and airmails it into right field, its an E2.
Same situation as the first baseman picking that throw in the dirt to save the error on infielder, but then throwing it into left field trying to backpack runner on 2nd.
Yours is a tortured interpretation. The OP never stated that it short hoped into the mitt. If a ball hits the dirt and the catcher blocks it, the ball has not been “handled”, it’s a wild pitch. The definition of “handled” is to control with the hands.
Your first baseman example implies two separate possible errors. A runner reaching first base on a throwing error by a fielder other than 1B and a second error by 1B “trying to backpack a runner at 2B”. Whatever backpacking means, if it allowed a runner another base it’s an error.
E2 because the way it is worded by the OP the catcher had an easy throw to first but overthrew the first baseman which is what caused him to reach. If the ball going by the catcher is the reason he reached then either E2 or E1 according to the play. The play for whether a wild pitch or passed ball should be determined the same as a hit or error on an infielder. It is different according to the scorer. Some will add the speed of the ball into the equation and some say the speed has nothing to do with it. Should the infielder have reasonably caught the ball has always been my determination according to the level playing. I think a D1 SS should catch more balls than a LL ss so the qualification has to be reasonably catch it for the level of play. There are too many infield hits given in college baseball these days especially at the higher levels. If you are top level infielder, you should catch most balls that do not get out of the infield. If the ball could reasonably be caught or blocked and thrown by the catcher, then it is an E2 not E1.
On gamechanger, one of the ways it gives you to say they reached first is by error and then it asks on who.
@PitchingFan posted:E2 because the way it is worded by the OP the catcher had an easy throw to first but overthrew the first baseman which is what caused him to reach. If the ball going by the catcher is the reason he reached then either E2 or E1 according to the play. The play for whether a wild pitch or passed ball should be determined the same as a hit or error on an infielder. It is different according to the scorer. Some will add the speed of the ball into the equation and some say the speed has nothing to do with it. Should the infielder have reasonably caught the ball has always been my determination according to the level playing. I think a D1 SS should catch more balls than a LL ss so the qualification has to be reasonably catch it for the level of play. There are too many infield hits given in college baseball these days especially at the higher levels. If you are top level infielder, you should catch most balls that do not get out of the infield. If the ball could reasonably be caught or blocked and thrown by the catcher, then it is an E2 not E1.
On gamechanger, one of the ways it gives you to say they reached first is by error and then it asks on who.
Not sure I follow.
WP/PB are not errors. An errant throw down to 1b is an error.
My bad DD2024, you are correct. I was meaning the difference between PB and WP or E2 but I miswrote it. Was typing in a hurry and not thinking slowly.
@22and25 posted:Yours is a tortured interpretation. The OP never stated that it short hoped into the mitt. If a ball hits the dirt and the catcher blocks it, the ball has not been “handled”, it’s a wild pitch. The definition of “handled” is to control with the hands.
Your first baseman example implies two separate possible errors. A runner reaching first base on a throwing error by a fielder other than 1B and a second error by 1B “trying to backpack a runner at 2B”. Whatever backpacking means, if it allowed a runner another base it’s an error.
Not tortured at all. Once the catcher has the ball in his mitt and has an opportunity to throw out the runner with "reasonable effort", if he makes a bad throw its an E2.
"Backpack" was supposed to be back-pick. Autocorrect got me. Sorry.
It all depends on what happens before the catcher has the ball in his glove ready to throw. If a wild pitch occurred before he has secured the ball it’s irrelevant what he could or should have done.
If the batter became a runner on the 3rd strike because the pitcher threw a wild pitch it’s an error on the pitcher. The catcher is under no obligation to save him from that error even he is expected to do so.
Fine. I don't feel compelled to try to change your mind. I agree with most of what you're saying.
All I'm saying is it isn't a wild pitch if the catcher catches the ball and then makes a bad throw, whether it bounces first or not. It can't be a wild pitch if it's caught. Carry on.
@22and25 posted:It all depends on what happens before the catcher has the ball in his glove ready to throw. If a wild pitch occurred before he has secured the ball it’s irrelevant what he could or should have done.
If the batter became a runner on the 3rd strike because the pitcher threw a wild pitch it’s an error on the pitcher. The catcher is under no obligation to save him from that error even he is expected to do so.
Ah, WP is not an error.
GC got back to me. I don't agree with it, but rules are rules:
*According to baseball rules, there cannot be both a dropped third strike and throwing/fielding error if the runner only advances to first base. The runner advanced to first because of the dropped third strike. You are not able to also apply an error to that play. If the runner advances to second because of an error, you will be able to record that in the app.
Not to derail your thread (but it sounds like you've found your answer), but if there is a pick-off attempt from the pitcher or a back-pick attempt from the catcher, there's no way to differentiate between the two when scoring on GC. I know there's not a real scoring stat for pickoffs/back-pick attempts, but I'd like for people who are following the game live know what's really happening.
Use the comments. I used to as much as I could there for the people following, like slow-roller vs one-hopper, how close a play was, how hard balls were hit, and what opposing pitchers looked like. I was also the announcer for home games so that limited what I could do a bit.
I’m a dad of a C. He calls curve, and it falls within the parameters of what I said earlier and it gets by him....it’s a passed ball. He would agree 100%. Don’t care how it’s scored, we all know it’s a passed ball.
@22and25 is 100% correct. I've always laugh when I see amateur scorers (Little League, HS, travel ball) record the number of PB's they do... they are really WP's. If the catcher blocks a ball in the dirt and no runner advances, he's a good catcher doing his job and will likely keep his job. If he fails the block the ball and the runner advances (inc. dropped 3rd strike) it's nothing more than a WP. Certainly if you think the ball should have been blocked then you can still place the blame on the catcher (and he may not keep his starting job very long) but it's still a WP.
Just pay attention to MLB scoring and you will see this is certainly the case!
I think the difference between hits and errors, wp and pb is normally whether the scorer is pitcher or fielder strong. Those who are pitcher strong will call more errors and pb's and those who are fielder strong will call more hits and wp's. I'm more pitcher strong having three pitchers and I think if a ball hits the dirt behind home plate between the batter boxes it should be caught and if a ball hits a fielder's glove and he is on his feet no matter the speed of the ball it is an error. I hate when scorers say it was a hard hit ball so it is a hit versus an error. If you can't catch a hard hit ball, then don't play infield. I'm talking showcase/travel, high school and college in all of this not LL. Never kept stats in LL, kinda like JV ball. When I was HC, we never kept a scorebook for JV baseball, never turned in a lineup. It was JV ball.
@PitchingFan I tend to agree that most scorers with a player on the field will have a bias reflected in their scoring decisions. Based on my post in this thread, one might think I have catchers in the family. Nope, one RHP PO and a two way MIF/RHP.
I have scored a lot of games in youth and high school and try to reflect the rules as written with as little interpretation (justification) as possible. Some will always try to find the one exception to any rule...
@T_Thomas posted:Fine. I don't feel compelled to try to change your mind. I agree with most of what you're saying.
All I'm saying is it isn't a wild pitch if the catcher catches the ball and then makes a bad throw, whether it bounces first or not. It can't be a wild pitch if it's caught. Carry on.
You need a wild pitch or a passed ball for the batter to become a runner in this scenarios. So are you going to score a ball caught by the catcher as a passed ball or a ball thrown in the dirt by the pitcher as a wild pitch?
The play never happens without one of those two rulings first. Like I said before, yours is a tortured interpretation if you have to first rule a catcher allowed a passed ball on a ball that he actually caught in order to give him an error for a bad throw.
The rules as written in the case of your very narrow scenario may not reflect who made a bad play but you still have to score it by the rules.
@PitchingFan posted:I think the difference between hits and errors, wp and pb is normally whether the scorer is pitcher or fielder strong. Those who are pitcher strong will call more errors and pb's and those who are fielder strong will call more hits and wp's. I'm more pitcher strong having three pitchers and I think if a ball hits the dirt behind home plate between the batter boxes it should be caught and if a ball hits a fielder's glove and he is on his feet no matter the speed of the ball it is an error. I hate when scorers say it was a hard hit ball so it is a hit versus an error. If you can't catch a hard hit ball, then don't play infield. I'm talking showcase/travel, high school and college in all of this not LL. Never kept stats in LL, kinda like JV ball. When I was HC, we never kept a scorebook for JV baseball, never turned in a lineup. It was JV ball.
Yeah, well, that all makes sense but none of it is in the OBR, so.....
Your LL comment reminds me of the time when I was coaching a tee-ball team and at our first game, one player's parents proudly presented me with a brand new Glover's scorebook. I had no words.
BTW whatever happened to Scorekeeper aka Stats?
@22and25 posted:...You need a wild pitch or a passed ball for the batter to become a runner in this scenarios...
Well, I think here we have found the difference in our interpretation.
I don't see anything in OBR Rule 9 which requires this, but admittedly it is a bit confusing with all the sub-clauses. I could be wrong about this, so if you have some support for this interpretation, I'd love to see it.
And, no, I do not count GameChanger as a authoritative reference :-)
And again, I agree with most of what you're saying, and in 95% of the uncaught third strike scenarios it will be a WP or PR. I'm talking about he case where the catcher controls the pitch, either by blocking or short-hopping, and the runner is still just a step or two out of the box. In this particular case, if the catcher throws it into RF, I think the rules support an E2.
Where's that dead horse GIF?
(Edited for MLB Official Rules reference. This was recently changed from Rule 10 to Rule 9.)
Yeah, I miss StatsforGnats too...
@T_Thomas posted:Where's that dead horse GIF?
I think this thread has gotten to the point where we can tell irrelevant baseball stories.
Here's one. The setting is Big League Dreams in Manteca CA one fine autumn morning. We have a cobbled-together 13U team that is frankly, not that good. Our catcher is one of those kids who at 13 is bigger, stronger, faster than almost all of his peers, but by 16 is kinda short and only average. On a dropped third strike he rifles the ball over 1B's head. It hits the seam where the IF grass meets the OF turf, caroms over the head of the RF, and rolls toward the fence. Batter scores in an inside the park dropped 3rd strike.
1B ump turns toward our dugout and says, "Never seen that one before."
So, how did you score it? 
@PitchingFan posted:I think the difference between hits and errors, wp and pb is normally whether the scorer is pitcher or fielder strong. Those who are pitcher strong will call more errors and pb's and those who are fielder strong will call more hits and wp's. I'm more pitcher strong having three pitchers and I think if a ball hits the dirt behind home plate between the batter boxes it should be caught and if a ball hits a fielder's glove and he is on his feet no matter the speed of the ball it is an error. I hate when scorers say it was a hard hit ball so it is a hit versus an error. If you can't catch a hard hit ball, then don't play infield. I'm talking showcase/travel, high school and college in all of this not LL. Never kept stats in LL, kinda like JV ball. When I was HC, we never kept a scorebook for JV baseball, never turned in a lineup. It was JV ball.
I guess I lean fielder strong because there ain't nothing "routine" about a shin eater smoked at 95+ EV. However, the one that really bothers me is the pop-up no one calls that drops in the middle of 4 guys starring at each other 
Someone is getting an error in my book.
@T_Thomas posted:And, no, I do not count GameChanger as a authoritative reference :-)
You don’t trust a company whose entire business model relies on scoring baseball games?
What about a pop-up or fly ball that falls to the ground because the fielder lost it in the sun? Hit or error?
Sometimes you have to look for context clues to clarify a ruling that does not have the exact verbiage to your scenario. In this case, how is a wild throw by the catcher scored in every other scenario where a runner advances to another base? Let’s take your clean one hop catch scenario as the example.
Runner on first base and the count is 0/0. RHP delivers a slider wide of the plate to the 1B side that skips off the dirt. Runner at 1B takes off thinking it’s going to get past, catcher cleanly backhands the ball off the short hop and has the runner dead to rights at 2B but sails the ball over the SS’s head by 10 feet. The runner is held at 2B.
Official Score Options (more than one may apply):
Stolen Base
Advanced on WP
Advanced on PB
Advanced E2
How are you scoring it? Rule 9.02(b) & (d) will be in play
@JCG posted:I think this thread has gotten to the point where we can tell irrelevant baseball stories.
Here's one. The setting is Big League Dreams in Manteca CA one fine autumn morning. We have a cobbled-together 13U team that is frankly, not that good. Our catcher is one of those kids who at 13 is bigger, stronger, faster than almost all of his peers, but by 16 is kinda short and only average. On a dropped third strike he rifles the ball over 1B's head. It hits the seam where the IF grass meets the OF turf, caroms over the head of the RF, and rolls toward the fence. Batter scores in an inside the park dropped 3rd strike.
1B ump turns toward our dugout and says, "Never seen that one before."
Home run on a strikeout! D3K, E2 Love it.
My daughter once drilled a ball directly into the side of the 3B bag. Shot about 30 feet into the air towards the OF, landed, then rolled out of bounds and rattled around in a small cut out in the LF fence meant for maintenance equipment.
Inside the park HR!
@T_Thomas posted:I think you meant 9.07(b)
And, in this case, the scoring decision is clearly in the rule book.
Yes, 907. Given that this is the other scenario in the rule book that covers a runner advancing, at risk, after a legal pitch not put in play, don’t you think it sheds some light on our original scenario?
If the batter breaks after the pitch is delivered it’s not a stolen base. He didn’t reach on an E2, as that is clearly spelled out as you note. Here was no defensive indifference as the catcher made an attempt. So how do you score this play?
from MLB.com
A catcher is given a passed ball if he cannot hold onto a pitch that -- in the official scorer's judgment -- he should have, and as a result at least one runner moves up on the bases. Passed balls have commonality with wild pitches, as both allow a runner to advance on his own without a stolen base. However, there is a key difference: A passed ball is deemed to be the catcher's fault, while a wild pitch is deemed to be the fault of the pitcher.
A passed ball is not recorded as an error, but when a run scores as the result of a passed ball, it does not count as an earned run against a pitcher. (In cases where this is in question, the official scorer must reconstruct the inning, and if the run would not have scored without the passed ball, that run is deemed unearned.) If a runner advances on a passed ball, he is not credited with a stolen base.
After a strikeout, if the catcher fails to catch the third strike, and the batter reaches first base safely as a result, either a passed ball or a wild pitch must be awarded. In the instance of a wild pitch, that baserunner could count against a pitcher's ERA, but in the instance of a passed ball, he cannot.
The rule says the wording caught with ordinary effort as determined by scorekeeper. Anyone who says that scorekeeping is not judgement calls is wrong. Someone has to determine ordinary effort. If the ball is a good curve ball that drops off the table and hits the ground behind home plate before the catcher it should have been caught. The catcher knew what pitch was coming and should catch it so it is a passed ball. If you are a third baseman in D1 baseball, you know you are playing the hot corner so you should catch shots hit at you at 100 mph EV. I still hold that it comes down to the judgement of the scorekeeper even in MLB or college. I get amazed at how many times in P5 SEC baseball they say it was a hit because that was a shot. If it hits the glove with ordinary effort and the fielder misses it then it is an error, no matter the speed of the ball.
