@22and25 I think I follow, but as ugly as it sounds I would still scored it as a SB..... couldn't you make the same argument on a delayed steal?
"Breaking after the pitch" is really vague. Where are you drawing the line?
@22and25 posted:Sometimes you have to look for context clues to clarify a ruling that does not have the exact verbiage to your scenario. In this case, how is a wild throw by the catcher scored in every other scenario where a runner advances to another base? Let’s take your clean one hop catch scenario as the example.
Runner on first base and the count is 0/0. RHP delivers a slider wide of the plate to the 1B side that skips off the dirt. Runner at 1B takes off thinking it’s going to get past, catcher cleanly backhands the ball off the short hop and has the runner dead to rights at 2B but sails the ball over the SS’s head by 10 feet. The runner is held at 2B.
Official Score Options (more than one may apply):
Stolen Base
Advanced on WP
Advanced on PB
Advanced E2
How are you scoring it? Rule 9.02(b) & (d) will be in play
WP.
Had he made the move to second before the pitch is delivered then it would certainly be a SB. Just like when the runner steals second on a hanging curve-ball (either through luck or skill--as in knowing the count and pitcher's tendencies).
@PitchingFan posted:The catcher knew what pitch was coming and should catch it so it is a passed ball.
The 2 passed balls I've put on my son this season were both the wrong pitch thrown by the pitcher. It was a problem with him last year and continues this year. One was supposed to be a slider and he threw a fast ball, the other was supposed to be a fastball inside and he threw a slider outside.
@T_Thomas I mean no harm. I clearly have time on my hands today and enjoy the subject and people’s varying interpretations. You engaged with a contradictory interpretation and I enjoyed the respectful debate. You are obviously free to disengage at any point.
@ReluctantO'sFan posted:@22and25 I think I follow, but as ugly as it sounds I would still scored it as a SB..... couldn't you make the same argument on a delayed steal?
"Breaking after the pitch" is really vague. Where are you drawing the line?
9.07(a) says it should not be a stolen base because the runner broke for 2nd after the pitcher “delivered the ball”,
a) When a runner starts for the next base before the pitcher delivers the ball and the pitch results in what ordinarily is scored a wild pitch or passed ball, the Official Scorer shall credit the runner with a stolen base and shall not charge the misplay, unless, as a result of the misplay, the stealing runner advances an extra base, or another runner also advances, in which case the Official Scorer shall score the wild pitch or passed ball as well as the stolen base.
@22and25 posted:@T_Thomas I mean no harm. I clearly have time on my hands today and enjoy the subject and people’s varying interpretations. You engaged with a contradictory interpretation and I enjoyed the respectful debate. You are obviously free to disengage at any point.
I know, and thanks for the discussion. I like the rules interpretation stuff too, but I can't let myself get too much farther down this rabbit hole.
@T_Thomas posted:I know, and thanks for the discussion. I like the rules interpretation stuff too, but I can't let myself get too much farther down this rabbit hole.
I will note that your withdrawal was due to time constraints and no points will be awarded for capitulation 😀
I hate the pop fly that drops and should have been caught. Had one a couple weeks ago where it was a ground ball to the right of the F3, he gets over and fields it clean, runner should have been out by 40 feet (kid is slowwwwww), whelp, pitcher didn't cover. The crazy thing is I think he could have still beat the kid to the bag instead of looking lost because nobody covered.
I reluctantly ruled it a hit.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:I hate the pop fly that drops and should have been caught. Had one a couple weeks ago where it was a ground ball to the right of the F3, he gets over and fields it clean, runner should have been out by 40 feet (kid is slowwwwww), whelp, pitcher didn't cover. The crazy thing is I think he could have still beat the kid to the bag instead of looking lost because nobody covered.
I reluctantly ruled it a hit.
Are you sure?
Look at the last example.
Reviving this post because I might be scoring PB and WP wrong. NFHS rules leave a lot to be interpreted by the scorekeeper. Is there any definitive rule update since this was last discussed?
I score like this: if the ball should reasonably be handled by the catcher, then it’s a PB. WPs include high or wide pitches that force the catcher to reach outside the plate or above his mask/head, or pitches in the dirt, but subjectively scored if the pitch crosses the plate in the strike zone but still hits the dirt before the catcher.
More info: We have two solid starting catchers on our team. C1 is better at blocking than C2. When C2 blocks, generally he slides and angles too much, causing balls to glance of him backwards, where C1 blocks it down in front of him. C1 isn’t some P5 recruit, just a solid blocking catcher. Should ordinary effort at a nominal level come into play here? Also, we’re talking about decent pitching too. Balls in the dirt are called curve balls, not severely wild dirt balls. Pitchers are throwing 78-84 FBs, 60-65 CBs - nothing crazy fast. To be fair, I have a pitcher. Thoughts?
I don't have a current copy of the NFHS Rule book, but I'm sure it hasn't changed in the last few years. This rule is consistent across all rules sets, as far as I know.
NFHS Baseball Rule 2020:
- RULE 9 SECTION 6 PITCHER’S RECORD
ART. 1 . . . A wild pitch shall be charged in the summary to the pitcher
when a ball legally delivered to the batter is so high, or so low(including any
pitch that touches the ground in front of home plate), or so far away from
home plate that the catcher does not stop or control it with ordinary effort so
that the batter-runner advances to first base or any runner advances a base.
When the catcher enables a runner, other than the batter-runner, to advance
by failing to control a pitch that he should have been able to control, it is not
a wild pitch but a “passed ball.”
This is the definition & interpretation from the MLB rules:
Wild Pitch (WP) -Definition
- A pitcher is charged with a wild pitch when his pitch is so errant that the catcher is unable to control it and, as a result, baserunner(s) advance. (This is an important stipulation. No matter how poor the pitch, a pitcher is only charged with a WP if at least one runner moves up a base, and he cannot be charged with a wild pitch if no one is on base -- unless it allows the batter to reach base on a third strike.)
- Wild pitches have commonality with passed balls -- which represent the same thing, but are the fault of the catcher instead of the pitcher. The decision whether a pitch is ruled a passed ball or a wild pitch is in the hands of the official scorer. But a general rule of thumb is that if the pitch hits the dirt or misses a catcher's glove altogether, it's a wild pitch.
- Certain pitchers who struggle with their control tend to have high wild pitch totals. As a result, pitchers who allow a high number of walks often allow a higher-than-average number of wild pitches. Pitchers who possess very good curveballs -- or any other breaking ball -- also are at risk of throwing wild pitches. Sometimes the pitch is intended to bounce in the dirt, with the goal being to deceive the hitter into thinking it's crossing the strike zone at his knees before plummeting into the ground. This puts a burden on the catcher to block the baseball and prevent a wild pitch.
In NFHS, the phrase “including any
pitch that touches the ground in front of home plate” means on the pitchers side of the plate, right? So anything that crosses the plate and touches the ground is subjectively scored? Personally I like the MLB rule clarity. It might stink for a quality pitcher with a mediocre catcher but at least it would be much simpler to score it.
I think the universal interpretation is that any pitch which hits the ground before the catchers glove has to be considered a WP if any runners advance. This definitely isn't a pitcher-friendly interpretation,and catchers are certainly expected to block most of those breaking balls in the dirt in front of them, but that's the way the scoring is done.