Bases loaded no outs
One hopper back to pitcher.
Ball gets stuck in glove while trying to get out at home.
No outs recorded
Fielders Choice??
Hit??
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My vote: Error on pitcher
Is that a guess or are you confident of that answer?
guess. I'm not with MLB scoring.
I would score that as a Fielder's Choice, E1. As described, it's not a hit. I am not a pro scorekeeper either, but keep (my own) book at most games I watch.
Fielder's choice, E1
Gungi07 posted:
Bases loaded no outs
One hopper back to pitcher.
Ball gets stuck in glove while trying to get out at home.
No outs recorded
Fielders Choice??
Hit??
As always, without seeing the play, it’s very difficult to make an accurate evaluation. But going on what was given, here’s a try.
Assuming the pitcher could have thrown to 1st and put out the batter-runner, the batter-runner reaches on a fielder’s choice.
Assuming the pitcher fielded the ball cleanly but couldn’t make the transfer because he couldn’t get the ball out of the glove sounds like a “mechanical misplay”, which means the run scores on an error.
OBR 9.12 Errors
An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 9.12.
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, …
Rule 9.12(a )(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter.
Error on Pitcher, unearned run.
Gov posted:Error on Pitcher, unearned run.
Whether or not the run was earned can't be determined until the inning is reconstructed. FI, if the next 2 batters strike out looking, the run would be unearned. But if the next batter singles the run would be earned.
Gov posted:Error on Pitcher, unearned run.
I'm giving it an error and an earned run. With no outs, you can't assume a clean play on the lead runner. Reconstructed without the error, you assume the out at first and the run scoring on a 1-3 put out.
Again, no way to know earned or unearned without more information. How did the runner on third get on base
Yesterday, bottom of the 12th, O's had no outs and bases loaded. A chopper back to pitcher, he throws home, catcher throws to 3rd and the result is a double play. In a bases loaded situation, I don't think the pitcher throws to 1st and takes the run. In fact I think you attempt the throw home and try to prevent the run from scoring while risking the out. Not sure you can assume how the outs would have happened, only what did happen. The inning has to be reconstructed before you assign earned and unearned runs.
The way the situation was presented, the bases were loaded. Nothing was mentioned about prior errors. So assumption is, that the pitcher put those runners on base. You cannot assign an unearned run automatically unless the batter reached base due to error.
Buckeye 2015 posted:Again, no way to know earned or unearned without more information. How did the runner on third get on base
Yeah, but I was just assuming that the runners on base were all on without error, otherwise the play has no affect whatsoever on the determination.
Mominthestands posted:Yesterday, bottom of the 12th, O's had no outs and bases loaded. A chopper back to pitcher, he throws home, catcher throws to 3rd and the result is a double play. In a bases loaded situation, I don't think the pitcher throws to 1st and takes the run. In fact I think you attempt the throw home and try to prevent the run from scoring while risking the out. Not sure you can assume how the outs would have happened, only what did happen. The inning has to be reconstructed before you assign earned and unearned runs.
The way the situation was presented, the bases were loaded. Nothing was mentioned about prior errors. So assumption is, that the pitcher put those runners on base. You cannot assign an unearned run automatically unless the batter reached base due to erro
The problem is that if you assume he could have cut the run down at the plate and therefore the run would not have scored if he makes the play, then the scorekeeper has to make a lot of decisions during the course of play that they just do not do. Let's say there are no outs and a runner at first. The ball is hit sharply back to F1 who bobbles it and then throws out the BR at first even though it appears he could have easily gotten the lead runner at second if he fielded it cleanly. R1 then steals third and scores on a routine grounder to first. The final batter K's. The sk is not going to decide, when reconstructing the inning, that R1 should have been forced out at second and that no runner would ever have reached third with less than two outs to be in a position to score on the 3u grounder, making the run unearned - that's not how you reconstruct the inning. You only assume the 1-3 on the grounder back to the pitcher. You can't decide he should have - or easily could have - knocked down the lead runner and give him an error.
FC. No throw, no error. It's only a hit if the ball got literally stuck in the glove's webbing. Assume the pitcher made a throw to HP but they couldn't get the runner in time, the batter is safe on a FC.
hsbaseball101 posted:FC. No throw, no error. It's only a hit if the ball got literally stuck in the glove's webbing. Assume the pitcher made a throw to HP but they couldn't get the runner in time, the batter is safe on a FC.
I like this. Treat it like a failed fielder's choice.
Agree...FC. Not much different than a grounder to short where SS is late with his throw to 2B attempting to get the force on the runner coming from 1B (runner maybe running on the pitch). No error, but no hit either.
Without seeing the play, I'm assuming the P was rushing to get the ball out of his glove to get the throw home. Probably would have had a lot more time to get the ball out of the glove for a throw to 1B. P made a choice (FC) on what to do.
Agreed on the FC call. However, still have to account for how the run scored.
The batter reached on a FC. I think everyone agrees with that as the original post implied that the pitchers intention was to throw home.
However, the run scored and was it earned or not?
When there is a fielders choice and both runners are safe there is always a reason why. The fielder may attempt the throw, but it was late for example. That would not be considered an error. In this case though, the pitcher didn't make the play...because he couldn't field the ball from his glove. I have always looked at this the same as a bobble. It's an error on the fielder. He physically failed to execute the play. We will never know what would have happened if the pitcher had been successful in his attempt to throw home or 1st.
FC with an error to the pitcher. The error may or may not be relevant. Earned/unearned run to be determined after reconstruction.
Mominthestands posted:Agreed on the FC call. However, still have to account for how the run scored.
The batter reached on a FC. I think everyone agrees with that as the original post implied that the pitchers intention was to throw home.
However, the run scored and was it earned or not?
When there is a fielders choice and both runners are safe there is always a reason why. The fielder may attempt the throw, but it was late for example. That would not be considered an error. In this case though, the pitcher didn't make the play...because he couldn't field the ball from his glove. I have always looked at this the same as a bobble. It's an error on the fielder. He physically failed to execute the play. We will never know what would have happened if the pitcher had been successful in his attempt to throw home or 1st.
FC with an error to the pitcher. The error may or may not be relevant. Earned/unearned run to be determined after reconstruction.
Doesn't matter. You don't consider his intention as to the base he would go to on a reconstruction - you assume he would have gone to first. That way a scorekeeper doesn't have to make that kind of determination. Even if you give an error, it's an earned run. You can never assume the fielder will go for the lead runner.
Agree...earned run. Also, mental mistakes are never errors (no matter how egregious).
hsbaseball101 posted:FC. No throw, no error. It's only a hit if the ball got literally stuck in the glove's webbing. Assume the pitcher made a throw to HP but they couldn't get the runner in time, the batter is safe on a FC.
Thanks everyone for feedback.
Runners on all bases got there via hit or walk.
The ball did actually get stuck in the pitchers glove/webbing.
Comment section under Rule 10 on scoring:
Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter.
Additionally. Rule 10.16:
(a) The official scorer shall charge an earned run against a pitcher every time a runner reaches home base by the aid of safe hits, sacrifice bunts, a sacrifice fly, stolen bases, putouts, fielder’s choices, bases on balls, hit batters, balks or wild pitches (including a wild pitch on third strike that permits a batter to reach first base) before fielding chances have been offered to put out the offensive team. For the purpose of this rule, a defensive interference penalty shall be construed as a fielding chance. A wild pitch is solely the pitcher’s fault and shall contribute to an earned run just as a base on balls or a balk.
Since you can't call holding the ball and not throwing in time to retire the runner an error, then it must be scored in one of the other categories mentioned in 10.16(a) and, thus, an earned run.
roothog66 posted:Comment section under Rule 10 on scoring:
Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter.
Hmmmmm......whoever wrote this obviously was an IF...and not the pitcher whose ERA gets dinged when a guy scores from 3rd with 2 outs because the IF is too slow getting the ball to 1B 
Buckeye 2015 posted:roothog66 posted:Comment section under Rule 10 on scoring:
Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter.
Hmmmmm......whoever wrote this obviously was an IF...and not the pitcher whose ERA gets dinged when a guy scores from 3rd with 2 outs because the IF is too slow getting the ball to 1B
I'd have to get more info on what was meant by "stuck in glove." If the ball literally became stuck in the webbing, then it's a slowly made play, which is not an error. It's also not an FC because an FC is scored only if the out could have been made at first but for the effort to go home. If the ball truly got stuck, then no out could've been made at first, either, which means it's a hit. I know that sounds weird but it's no less of a hit than when someone's bat breaks and the ball bloops over the infield.
If "stuck in glove" means the fielder fumbled with the ball repeatedly while trying to get a grip to throw, then given that the play was being attempted to home, the batter runner reaches first on a FC and the runner from third scores on an E1. (This assumes that an out would have been made at home, had the play been made cleanly. The scorekeeper should actually make a judgment call on whether this is the case, and that would include assessing things like how good a jump the runner had on the play.
When an inning gets reconstructed, it starts with the 1st batter and doesn’t conclude until the inning is over, and ERs aren’t determined until the inning is over. I don’t know how other scoring apps reconstruct an inning, but I wrote one and couldn’t do it because it was so complicated. That’s why I compute ERs manually after every game.
Most of the time it’s pretty simple, but as the example in this thread shows, it can get complicated as well.
Stats4Gnats posted:When an inning gets reconstructed, it starts with the 1st batter and doesn’t conclude until the inning is over, and ERs aren’t determined until the inning is over. I don’t know how other scoring apps reconstruct an inning, but I wrote one and couldn’t do it because it was so complicated. That’s why I compute ERs manually after every game.
Most of the time it’s pretty simple, but as the example in this thread shows, it can get complicated as well.
That's certainly true, but in this case no reconstruction is needed because there shouldn't be an error recorded (assuming again that all three base runners were on without an error).
roothog66 posted:Stats4Gnats posted:When an inning gets reconstructed, it starts with the 1st batter and doesn’t conclude until the inning is over, and ERs aren’t determined until the inning is over. I don’t know how other scoring apps reconstruct an inning, but I wrote one and couldn’t do it because it was so complicated. That’s why I compute ERs manually after every game.
Most of the time it’s pretty simple, but as the example in this thread shows, it can get complicated as well.
That's certainly true, but in this case no reconstruction is needed because there shouldn't be an error recorded (assuming again that all three base runners were on without an error).
Additionally, this is not always the case. For example. Single. Fly out. R1 goes to 3rd on an error throwing the ball back in. Single scores the run (can't determine er on first runner yet). Home run. Inning is still going but reconstruction doesn't need to wait until the inning is over - the run is earned.
roothog66 posted: That's certainly true, but in this case no reconstruction is needed because there shouldn't be an error recorded (assuming again that all three base runners were on without an error).
It’s your opinion no error should be scored. From what I’ve read, MHO is there should have been one.
roothog66 posted: Additionally, this is not always the case. For example. Single. Fly out. R1 goes to 3rd on an error throwing the ball back in. Single scores the run (can't determine er on first runner yet). Home run. Inning is still going but reconstruction doesn't need to wait until the inning is over - the run is earned.
In that particular case it’s true that ERs can be determined prior to the end of the inning, but how many examples do you think I can come up with where it need to wait? I’m not trying to say ERs always have to wait until the end of the inning to be determined by reconstruction, but I am saying it isn’t at all uncommon for it taking more than a few seconds to make the determination. If you or anyone else wants to do it while the game is going on, please be my guest. Me, I’ll wait until the game is over and there’s nothing else I have to be concerned with so I can take my time to make sure I get it right.
So, you read 10.12(a)(1) as optional as to a "slow played ball."
Trust me, I've read the rules about errors more times than you can imagine. But I do have a suggestion for you. Get rid of your copy of OBR and download a new one. Rule 10 is no longer The Official Scorer's rule. It's 9 now.
Stats4Gnats posted:Trust me, I've read the rules about errors more times than you can imagine. But I do have a suggestion for you. Get rid of your copy of OBR and download a new one. Rule 10 is no longer The Official Scorer's rule. It's 9 now.
Sure, I know that. So, given Rule 9.12(a)(1) still how do you justify giving an error on the play, as presented - ball stuck in glove? That is certainly not a "mechanical misplay."As presented, the pitcher fielded the ground ball cleanly yet did throw to a base in time to retire a runner. Seems a pretty clear demonstration of the rule.
Rule 9.12(a )(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter.
roothog66 posted: Sure, I know that. So, given Rule 9.12(a)(1) still how do you justify giving an error on the play, as presented - ball stuck in glove? That is certainly not a "mechanical misplay."As presented, the pitcher fielded the ground ball cleanly yet did throw to a base in time to retire a runner. Seems a pretty clear demonstration of the rule.
Rule 9.12(a )(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter.
That’s the way you interpret what was given and that’s fine. Me, I haven’t seen a ball stuck in a glove more than few times in the hundreds of thousands of plays I’ve seen over the years, so to me all I can picture is the pitcher trying to get the ball out cleanly and not being able to. Hence, mechanical misplay.
This is why seeing the play is a must for an accurate assessment. Some might see a fielder trying to transfer the ball and if not able to think the ball was stuck in the glove. But someone else might see the same thing and see a mechanical misplay.
Question on a remotely similar play. Slow R1, line drive to CF who fields it cleanly on 1 bounce. Plenty of time to force out the slow R1 at 2nd, but CF just can't pull the ball out of his glove, but never drops it and ends up not making a throw. I scored it a hit, because it looked like a hit, but our coach wanted it scored an error on CF. How would you score that one?
The Flush posted:Question on a remotely similar play. Slow R1, line drive to CF who fields it cleanly on 1 bounce. Plenty of time to force out the slow R1 at 2nd, but CF just can't pull the ball out of his glove, but never drops it and ends up not making a throw. I scored it a hit, because it looked like a hit, but our coach wanted it scored an error on CF. How would you score that one?
Even if he mishandled it I could never justify giving an outfielder an error based on a force play unless the runner continued to third.
Hit for the ball to CF. Errors require a misplay from ordinary effort. Firing the ball from CF to 2B to get a force would be a nice play if made...but clearly not a play made with ordinary effort.