Scoring Question

SAC, No doubt about it. No official at bat

In the scorebook would I score it SAC Fly E7

I'd have to look it up in the scoring rules, but it sounds like your friends are right.

At-bat, E7, RBI

If memory serves, you only assign a sac fly if he's out; the batter's intent was not to give himself up. It's a strange one, grant you, but I believe it's sort of like bunting for a base hit, failing, but advancing a runner. No sac given.

But I don't have an up-to-date book at the house. A good scorer would/should look it up.

Sacrifice Fly, RBI, no At Bat, the batter reaches base on the E7.

OBR 10.09(e):
Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a fly ball or a line drive handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield which (1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or (2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer's judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught. NOTE: Score a sacrifice fly in accordance with 10.09 (e)(2) even though another runner is forced out by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

NCAA Rule 10, Section 8:
...A sacrifice fly is credited when, with fewer than two outs, his fly, fair or foul, enables a runner to score. In either case, the sacrifice ruling applies when the batter is put out before he reaches first base or would have been put out if the ball had been fielded without error.

(NFHS) FED 9-3-4
A sacrifice is credited to the batter when, with not more than one out, his bunt enables any runner to advance or his fly ball enables a runner to score but which, in either case, results in the batter-runner being out before he reaches first, or would have resulted in his being put out if his bunt or batted ball had been fielded without error.

OldVaman, while the situation described is a Sacrifice Fly and no At Bat, you're right about a Sac Fly in that it does count against the batter when calculating On Base Percentage.

Thank you - my son will be happy - I orginally gave him an error which brought his average down to .489 - I felt so bad for him - haha.

JWC32 - I have to question you on your statement about the OB %. I seem to remember reading that a Sac Bunt does not count against OB% because it is intentional, but a Sac Fly does not count against the batting average but does count as a plate appearance for OB %.

I could be wrong though, as I have been reminded many times by my wife.

I've not been an official scorer for about 20 years, and certainly some of the scoring rules have changed. That's why when I did it for the New York-Penn League, I always had the book with me. You really have to look the stuff up to be sure.

That also means it is an un-earned run...

If the scorer rules that it is a SF and the runner reached 3rd legitimately, then the run is earned...right?

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Another scoring dilemma:

Based loaded, 2 outs.

Routine ground ball to SS (no movement necessary, no tricky hops). SS decides to attempt force at 2B, but 2B arrives late -- runner called safe. Run scores.

Team error?

Earned run?

Starzz

If the runner reached third base with no errors, the run would be earned.

If the batter were to score, he would be unearned. So would any run scored after the second out.

As for the other scoring dilemma:

Base hit, RBI, earned run (depending on the rest of the inning). With normal effort, the second baseman got beat to the bag. Tell the batter to send the runner a thank-you note.

But with normal effort the SS throws the runner out at first. Does the scorer judge "normal effort"?

In a word, yes.

So, in the case where normal effort should have resulted in an out -- and it did not -- it is up to the scorer to award an error to either the SS or 2B?

Just for the record, this is not an important issue for our team or for my son.....I am just curious because I am asked to score games. It seems like a gray area. From my perspective, the AB resulted in a fielder's choice.

PantherDad-I have a problem with the official scoring on your scenerio. According to Official Scoring guidelines there can be no error given on "mental" errors. However, why
should a batter be credited with a base hit when he should clearly have been thrown out?

This needs to be changed-maybe call it FC and it will count as a time at bat-0 for 1.

Moc1, I agree with you. That's why I asked the question. As I stated earlier, I think the batter should get a fielder's choice but, in that case, the scorer needs to assign an error to one of the infielders -- the SS -- who should have thrown to first -- or the 2B -- who should have arrived at the bag before the runner. An error makes the run unearned....in this case an inherited runner that should not have scored. *shrug*

Moc1 is right on the mental errors.

That's why I would call it a base hit.

ASU RAM FAN, the scoring rules don't actually explain why they say what they say. I'm not quite sure what you are questioning in my statement, though. I said that a Sac Fly counts against a batter when determining On Base Percentage. You said that a Sac Fly counts as a Plate Appearance when calculating OB%. Maybe this is a matter of semantics, or unclear language on my part, but I think we said the same thing!

OBR 10.22
To calculate... (f) On base percentage, divide the total of hits, all bases on balls, and hit by pitch by the total of at bats, all bases on balls, hit by pitch and sacrifice flies . NOTE: For the purpose of computing on base percentage, ignore being awarded first base on interference or obstruction.

In the case of the SS throwing to 2b, when the SS could have retired the batter at first, I would score it as a Fielder's Choice allowing the batter to reach first base.

OBR 10.06
A base hit shall not be scored in the following cases: (d) When a fielder fails in an attempt to put out a preceding runner, and in the scorer's judgment the batter runner could have been put out at first base. NOTE: This shall not apply if the fielder merely looks toward or feints toward another base before attempting to make the putout at first base...


Now, what to do about the play at second base. To me, it depends on whether or not the 2B was simply beaten to the bag (either the second baseman was lazy or the baserunner was really fast!), or got to the bag in time but missed touching the bag or tagging the runner.

In the specific example given, the second baseman was simply beaten to the bag. This is not an error; it is just a case of bad defense (or good baserunning, depending on your perspective).

Had the second baseman reached the area around the bag in time, fielded the throw, but missed the bag, it would be an error.

OBR 10.13(c)
An error shall be charged against any fielder when he catches a thrown ball or a ground ball in time to put out any runner on a force play and fails to tag the base or the runner.

I don't mind posting scoring rules, but if anybody wants their own copy of the rule books for scoring, they are actually pretty easy to get!

Pro rules (OBR) are posted on the MLB website: MLB Official Rules.

The entire NCAA Rule Book is available for free download as PDF (requires the free Adobe Acrobat Reader) from the NCAA website: NCAA.org -> Media and Events -> Publications -> Playing Rules

The High School Rule Book, of course, is not available online. But this does not seem to be a problem for scoring, because as near as I can tell, there are no differences (certainly no major differences) between it and Pro rule book when it comes to scoring.

JWC32 - you are correct, we are saying the same thing. I misread your post. sorry.