scoring question.. bad rule in mlb

All 4 runs only score if the runners all proceed around the bases and touch home.

The rule (4.11c) should be changed. Drop the exception and leave it that the games ends when the winning run scores. But then we wouldn't get to experience the excitement of the batter rounding the bases and the celebration at home plate and that's often pretty cool.

The exception to 4.11c permitting all runs to score was put in place in 1920. Not likely to change now. Who really cares anyway? What matters is did the winning run score. Everything else is just stats.

It only matters to Johnny's Dad cause he misses out on "one" RBI... cut me a break.. this question has no merit... you just won the game on a walk off GR Double... "don't worry... be Happy"

TX-Ump, while I absolutely agree with your "Don't worry ... be happy" approach, the question posed very definitely has merit.

The point raised in the OP was about consistency.

It could be argued that as is, there are two categories: HR and non-HR. Thus the two existing end-game scenarios. Plus, from a stat standpoint, there's really no difference between a double and a ground-rule double. So based on that, one could argue that there's really no inconsistency issue.

But on the other hand ... a HR and a GR double are the only two types safe hits that leave the yard and become automatic as to what the base-runners are entitled to. For that reason, it could be argued that the HR and GR double should fall into the same category for the end-game results. So in that vein, yes, there is an inconsistency.

All of which is to say ... yes, be happy, the game's over, don't worry about the RBI's. But -- is the rule consistent? Could be argued either way.

ctiger, good question. Worthy of discussion. Thanks for bringing it up.

I don't think it is a good question either. If bases are loaded and he hits a gapper that would have either been a double or triple, it goes in the books as a single with 1 RBI, game over. The fact that it bounces over the fence is irrelevant to me. Still should be scored a single and 1 rbi. JMHO

In walk-off situations, the outfield is generally playing way in, so it becomes problematic to do the accounting for what *would have happened* after the winning run scored. Even a certain amount of ground rule doubles would have been caught if not for the shift.

Walk-off plays that "stay live" definitely have to be limited, so you don't have the defense trying to make a play at the plate after the game is effectively over for sake of the pitcher's stats. (yes, you know it will happen)

I think walk off HR's are different, because there is no question about how many runs should get charged to the pitcher.

I had this situation a few years ago... Tourney play, one of the tiebreakers in pool play was runs scored... bottom 7 bases loaded 1 out 7-6... kid jacks a ball off the wall but it stays in the park... most likley a triple but after the 2nd run scored game over... final 8-7. The coach came out and told me that he was going to turn in 9-6 because the man on 1st would have scored... I just turned to him and said, "I don't think so as you can not inject what you think might have happened"

He then said what about an HR is that situation. I told him I would score 4 because the play was predetermined by the kid Jacking the ball out of the ballpark… we know what the outcome of the batted ball was... he looked at me for a second and agreed

Your logic and you answer were exactly right, because the play was, in your words, "predetermined"; and the situation is explicitly covered in the rulebook. Glad the coach agreed with you.

Problem is, that a ground rule double is also a play that is "predetermined" (in the way you used the word) ... and is also covered in OBR 7.05(f) as to what the runners are entitled to -- namely 2 bases.

All I'm saying is that because of the two situations mentioned above, one could make a reasonably valid argument that end-game rule is inconsistent.

Maybe we're beating this thing to death. Apologies if so.

Thanks.

Everyone is basically right but I agreee that a ground rule double is a pre determined play as is a hr...

just seems as though both plays should be played out at the end of the game...

After looking at it extensively i see no reason why it wouldnt be a 2 rbi hit and ballgame over...

Until about 1919 games ended whether the ball went over the fence or not with the scoring being ended with the winning run only. As more HRs were being hit, the ML rules committee changed the rule on HRs only, allowing all runs to score. Balls bouncing into the stands were counted as HRs until the late 1920's. After this the concept of the ground rule double came into being. It is like any other hit that does not leave the field on the fly. The game is over as soon as the winning run scores except when the ball leaves the field on the fly. I don't have any argument with this concept at all.

Does anybody know how many points are in question here?

i.e., how many extra RBI's would have been awarded, in the history of MLB since the creation of the ground-rule double, over and above the single RBI awarded by rule 4.11c that would have been yielded by a walk-off ground-rule double owing to the fact that two runners were in scoring position?

I have watched literally thousands of games at all levels and have seen maybe a couple end on a ground rule double over the decades. On the opposite end of this spectrum two famous games ended with a batter not even getting the RBI's he deserved.
Remember the playoff game ended by an apparent Robin Ventura grand slam where he stopped at first or second and of course was not awarded an RBI for himself and was awarded only a single (I think--I'm doing this from memory) as he left the basepath to celebrate with his teammates.
In 1959, Joe Adcock hit an apparent game ending HR to end Harvey Haddix's 12 inning perfect game but Henry AAron thought the ball was off the fence and after the runner in front of him scored, he ran from 3rd into the dugout and Adcock passed him on the bases ending up with a runscoring double and getting one RBI instead of three.