Scoring question - Hit or error

If there is neither a bobble nor a poor throw, then it's got to be a hit. It's the same as a well-placed bunt with no throw being made. 

Depends.  Are you pitcher or hitter's mom?  

Golfman25 posted:

Depends.  Are you pitcher or hitter's mom?  

Very good question but neither.  Just a discussion at the field and there were strong opinions mostly not agreeing with our team scoring and the other team scored it the way most of us saw it...

Hit

biggestfan2018 posted:

Golfman25 posted:

Depends.  Are you pitcher or hitter's mom?  

Very good question but neither.  Just a discussion at the field and there were strong opinions mostly not agreeing with our team scoring and the other team scored it the way most of us saw it...

Everything you described sounds like a hit. 

Error on the coach for not playing at double play depth ...  And of course none of the teammates helped the SS by yelling one. Hit to SS, bases loaded, depending on the inning and outs, everyone in now for the possible play at the plate and more than like a ball through some hole causing inflated ERA for the pitcher (should be obvious what position my kids played!)

As a disclaimer, I may sometimes take slight liberties with interpretation of an error in an effort for it to make common sense.  If a mental error is egregious enough, I call it an error.  So, in this case, while the OP description sounds straight forward enough that it would be ruled a hit, I would have to see the play. 

What age/level are we talking about?  How long was the delay with the throw?  If HS V or above, I am trying to envision a ground ball scenario with SS back and runners on where the SS doesn't see the runners going in his front periphery (possibly a ball to the 5-6 hole but I didn't get that from the OP).  So, there should at least be some awareness of the runners going.

Although it’s always best to have seen the play, ROCKETCITYPADRE has it pretty much on the money as can be seen in 9.12(a)(1).

 I know I’m looking for trouble here, but I have to disagree with CABBAGEDAD. I completely agree with a coach confronting players when they make a mental error, egregious or not. But a scorer doesn’t have that kind of authority and can’t just ignore the rules. That’s using the scorebook as a weapon and that’s not what it’s for.

 9.12 Errors

An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 9.12.

(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:

(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;

Rule 9.12(a )(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter. It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder’s legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer’s judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error. For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer’s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner. The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer’s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball. If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error. The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay— such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance— shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error. The official scorer shall not charge an error if the pitcher fails to cover first base on a play, thereby allowing a batter-runner to reach first base safely. The official scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play. The official scorer shall charge an error to a fielder who causes another fielder to misplay a ball—for example, by knocking the ball out of the other fielder’s glove. On such a play, when the official scorer charges an error to the interfering fielder, the official scorer shall not charge an error to the fielder with whom the other fielder interfered.

cabbagedad posted:

As a disclaimer, I may sometimes take slight liberties with interpretation of an error in an effort for it to make common sense.  If a mental error is egregious enough, I call it an error.  So, in this case, while the OP description sounds straight forward enough that it would be ruled a hit, I would have to see the play. 

What age/level are we talking about?  How long was the delay with the throw?  If HS V or above, I am trying to envision a ground ball scenario with SS back and runners on where the SS doesn't see the runners going in his front periphery (possibly a ball to the 5-6 hole but I didn't get that from the OP).  So, there should at least be some awareness of the runners going.

Interesting and thank you for the perspective.  It does seem more like coaching opportunities here vs scoring ruling  and I do appreciate the reply.  HS Varsity level.  We were offense and had this play been on us our coach would have had major issues with a few things in the play just not sure it should result in a scoring error.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Although it’s always best to have seen the play, ROCKETCITYPADRE has it pretty much on the money as can be seen in 9.12(a)(1).

 I know I’m looking for trouble here, but I have to disagree with CABBAGEDAD. I completely agree with a coach confronting players when they make a mental error, egregious or not. But a scorer doesn’t have that kind of authority and can’t just ignore the rules. That’s using the scorebook as a weapon and that’s not what it’s for.

 9.12 Errors

An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 9.12.

(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:

(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;

Rule 9.12(a )(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter. It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder’s legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer’s judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error. For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer’s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner. The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer’s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball. If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error. The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay— such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance— shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error. The official scorer shall not charge an error if the pitcher fails to cover first base on a play, thereby allowing a batter-runner to reach first base safely. The official scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play. The official scorer shall charge an error to a fielder who causes another fielder to misplay a ball—for example, by knocking the ball out of the other fielder’s glove. On such a play, when the official scorer charges an error to the interfering fielder, the official scorer shall not charge an error to the fielder with whom the other fielder interfered.

Wow - this is great info.  Thanks so much.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Although it’s always best to have seen the play, ROCKETCITYPADRE has it pretty much on the money as can be seen in 9.12(a)(1).

 I know I’m looking for trouble here, but I have to disagree with CABBAGEDAD. I completely agree with a coach confronting players when they make a mental error, egregious or not. But a scorer doesn’t have that kind of authority and can’t just ignore the rules. That’s using the scorebook as a weapon and that’s not what it’s for.

 9.12 Errors

An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 9.12.

(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:

(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;

Rule 9.12(a )(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter. It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder’s legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer’s judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error. For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer’s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner. The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer’s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball. If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error. The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay— such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance— shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error. The official scorer shall not charge an error if the pitcher fails to cover first base on a play, thereby allowing a batter-runner to reach first base safely. The official scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play. The official scorer shall charge an error to a fielder who causes another fielder to misplay a ball—for example, by knocking the ball out of the other fielder’s glove. On such a play, when the official scorer charges an error to the interfering fielder, the official scorer shall not charge an error to the fielder with whom the other fielder interfered.

Hahaha... No trouble here on this one, Stats, as I stated my disclaimer and understanding that by traditional rule, this is generally going to be ruled a hit. 

I will throw out this out-of-the-box food for thought though... you could have highlighted this phrase instead...

A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay— such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance— shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error.

While I fully understand this is not conventional scoring protocol, one could easily interpret not throwing the ball or holding on to it too long looking for another play as a physical misplay after a mental mistake.  "Such as" does not limit the rule to the examples stated.

Again, not looking to argue your position on this one as I agree.  Just food for thought.

The OP didn't specify how many outs.  If there are two, then a faint maybe on that. Otherwise, no.

cabbagedad posted:

Hahaha... No trouble here on this one, Stats, as I stated my disclaimer and understanding that by traditional rule, this is generally going to be ruled a hit. 

I will throw out this out-of-the-box food for thought though... you could have highlighted this phrase instead...

A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay— such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance— shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error.

While I fully understand this is not conventional scoring protocol, one could easily interpret not throwing the ball or holding on to it too long looking for another play as a physical misplay after a mental mistake.  "Such as" does not limit the rule to the examples stated.

Again, not looking to argue your position on this one as I agree.  Just food for thought.

The “mental mistakes” mentioned in the section you quoted are by rule not mental mistakes, but those aren’t the kinds of mental mistakes many people are thinking about when they believe an error should be charged. I’ve had coaches come to me wanting me to charge a player with an error because he threw to the wrong base, missed a cutoff man, just held the ball rather than throw it in, didn’t back up a base, or some other brain fart they’ve been coached over and over not to do. Even though there’s no such thing, I’ve even been asked to charge an offensive error when players have missed signs, not paid attention to balls in the dirt, gotten picked, run into a hit ball, and other mental blunders.

Should a player be reprimanded for such things? You bet! It’s called coaching. All I’m saying is, those things aren’t supposed to be reflected in the numbers unless the rule allows for it such as in the two examples in your quote. They’re things a coach will note on the card he carries in his back pocket or tells the scorer to somehow note on the scoresheet so it will be remembered.

No indication of a error here. No throwing error, no ball mishandling. No indication that even if the SS came up gunning to first that he would have the out. Infield hit. 

As written, it's a hit....but why is a SS playing so deep he can't get a guy at first....even with a quick glance to 2B to see if he has a chance there?  The fact that the guys on 1B and 2B got a good jump doesn't make the batter faster   Even with a quick look to 2B he should have gotten the batter easily.  Unless he was playing way too deep for his arm strength.   Never understood teams having their SS play on the grass.   My son was a HS SS and P that was hitting 90 his senior year...and he couldn't throw a quick runner out at 1B from that far away....yet I've seen a lot of SS play that far back.  As in this case...you're just giving away a hit

Buckeye 2015 posted: As written, it's a hit....but why is a SS playing so deep he can't get a guy at first....even with a quick glance to 2B to see if he has a chance there?  The fact that the guys on 1B and 2B got a good jump doesn't make the batter faster   Even with a quick look to 2B he should have gotten the batter easily.  Unless he was playing way too deep for his arm strength.   Never understood teams having their SS play on the grass.   My son was a HS SS and P that was hitting 90 his senior year...and he couldn't throw a quick runner out at 1B from that far away....yet I've seen a lot of SS play that far back.  As in this case...you're just giving away a hit

 It doesn’t matter how deep an infielder plays and what kind of Howitzer he has if the ball is hit slowly and the batter can fly.

Calling an error on him is kinda harsh.  In this situation the coach should've called for the IF to play DP depth.