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Scout Teams

Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
I posted this yesterday in College Recruiting under 'What Scouts are looking for...', but I think it deserves its own posting. Primarily, because I think it is a little hidden and would enjoy hearing what you folks have to say about this topic.

Here's the post:


I recently went to a MLB scout team tryout in Arizona where over 200 kids of various age groups tried out (2010, 2011, 2012). When it came to pitching I wanted to closely observe the scouts as they evaluated the pitchers because I am a HS coach and wanted to see how they rated each pitcher so I could share this information with players. Since this is the first of this kind of event I have ever attended I wanted to get as much information as I possibly could gather. I spent about 90 minutes in the bullpen standing just a few feet away from two scouts doing the observations occasionally chatting with them between pitching changes.

There were four mounds where they would have four pitchers throw various pitches one after another with just enough time for one of the scouts/coaches to get behind the catcher to radar the pitches. The pitchers threw a total of 8 pitches. They would throw in this order...5 FB's, 1 change, 1 CB and finish with 1 FB. Radared velocities were recorded on each pitch.

From what I could see there was not any observations or even a care of 'movement of pitch', 'type of spin', 'deception of release' and so on. They did not see or care if a pitcher threw a strike. In fact, some threw right over the top of the backstop, which did not seem to get the attention of any scout/coach, which again, I was standing just a few feet away from...

The number one thing that would get the scout/coach interested was when a pitcher was recorded at 85 mph or faster. Now, this got the scout's attention and he would look up from his clipboard. After the 8 pitch sequence was over for the four pitchers he would on every occasion call over to chat with the one who recorded a FB over 85. Every time without exception...

From what I could see they did not care about anything but velocity, not mechanics, movement, deception, location or whether it was a strike or a ball...nada...just velocity. I wish I could have seen something else, but I didn't. Velocity ruled the day...Period. I then followed up by checking the web site of this ‘elite’ scout team and discovered the pitchers who threw the highest velocities were selected for the various teams. Again, confirming my initial observations.

I understand the time constraints on such events and the amount of players that need to be evaluated, but I honestly, and I guess naively thought I would see thorough evaluations of each pitcher for those things you mentioned in your posting by professional scouts.

I guess it could have been the venue with the time constraints, but I have to admit I was surprised at the lack of technical evaluations.
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Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bear:
Don't know who the Scouts were, yet
I would say they were NOT seeking pitchers, yet
were seeking HS guys with arm strength.

And yes, when I hear of a HS arm
sitting on 85 mph, I go watch him pitch.


Bear,

I agree velocities over 85 are impressive...so, do recruiters and scouts believe if a guy has good velocity the rest can be worked on? I've heard it said that if a kid has good velocity it is easier to teach mechanics, location, etc. than it is to teach velocity since with some pitch speed takes time to develop.

Thanks for your reply
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
This is very common. Your not going to select the guys that are average in arm strength. Your going to select the guys that have arm strength and then work with them. Develop them etc.

The way you get noticed in a work out environment is show tools above the rest. Speed , Arm Strength , Power , outstanding fielding ability.
southpaw_dadsouthpaw_dad100+ posts
CW offers a great observation; one we have experienced many times.

Dirtbags -- What you say makes sense, and is very understandable.

I (and many others) have a player that is considered to have avg. arm speed (16U, 2011, 78-80 mph) ... but he consistently leads his teams when it comes to getting guys out, ERA, and Winning.

One Scout tell us that there are "Tools" guys -- those who show well in a workout; and "Apptitude" guys -- those who get it done in the game.

What suggestions can you offer to parents (and players) of Apptitude guys? With the first, and most obvious answer being to work on developing their strength and tools.
Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
This seems to be a common theme, a misconception, that won't go away. In reality, the kids with the greater velocity usually also have greater command and control! This is because fluidity of delivery and perfected mechanics--the things that lend control--also result in greater velocity.


I believe you Bum because I did see some guys that really looked good and threw very hard with command...however, I did see several guys that threw 81, 83, 85 and 87 that 'couldn't hit the broad side of a barn' let alone anything remotely called a strike zone. The guys who seemed to top 85/87 or so, did seem to demonstrate good command/control.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Bum,
I agree and disagree. Kids who have more repeatable mechanics can throw nearer the top of their velocity range and still throw strikes. That would give the impression that they have greater velocity.

Other than that in general I've found that the harder throwers don't have to develop as good of control early on so they don't, while a lot of the soft tossers are forced to develop control and even command in order to compete. Also the soft tossers who can't develop the control are gone pretty quickly.

Now some of the truly elite guys are out facing top competition almost all the time and they have to develop decent control to compete even with a pretty good fastball.
Last edited by CADad
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Coach, having been through this whole scout/evaluations this past summer and fall your observation is pretty typical. These guys (scouts) are literally looking at hundreds of kids in a day and they are looking for “separation” in a short period of time. What separates pitchers? Pretty easy - velocity. Hitters – bat speed. OF – foot speed, arm speed. These things are easier to spot in a large group of kids – so that is what they look for. They make a quick evaluation and make the cut. Once they select the 40 or so then they can look for finer details, but this is the first cut in the process.

Moral of the story – have something that will separate yourself from your peers that is easily identifiable quickly. Pitchers – velocity, and in fact any fielder…arm strength. Baseball players THROW baseballs - be better at this than your peers. If this is not what separates you then find something that does - and it must be quickly identifiable. Once you make the first cut then all of the other factors come into play, but you have to make the first cut.

What happens when you don’t have something to separate yourself…well you start to talk about “pitchability, getting outs, hitting spots, aptitude, good teammate", etc etc. The reality is that as you move up the food chain the kids that separate themselves have the opportunity to show they have the aptitude, or can get outs, or whatever. If not then you will be talking about it with your buddies not showing it on the field. FIND SOMETHING TO SEPARATE YOURSELF.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Coach,
I've seen one mlb tryout and they threw somewhere between 14 and 20 pitches. The scout team tryout I attended was very similar with the difference being that there were quite a few college coaches at the scout team tryout. I wasn't close up at the mlb tryout so I don't know how they judged anything. The scout team tryout tended to follow velocity, with lefties having an advantage of course, but the pitchers were all pretty similar as to their control with only minor exceptions and the one pitcher who came in with a "rep" for pitchability and demonstrated good control made the better scout team despite topping out at 86 and having been there for a couple years. Reputations/returners, grade level and bloodlines had an impact but overall I didn't see any real issues with which kids ended up on which team or not on a team.
Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
These guys (scouts) are literally looking at hundreds of kids in a day and they are looking for “separation” in a short period of time.


Excellent BOF, on this particular day there was 4 hours to evaluate over 200 kids...fielding, hitting, throwing, running and pitching. Not much time when selections have to be made and play begun by the following week. This is a good program for the kids who make the cut. There is good competition and coaching while under the watchful eyes of pro scouts. I wish all who made the cut good luck in this excellent baseball program...
B Bizzle10+ posts
If you guys don't mind my virgin opinion as Im new to HS baseball.

At the first practice of the HS summer team the HD coach asked some of the pitchers to step on the mound, he would like to take a look at what he might have. Now keep in mind these were kids that at that time would be freshmen in the fall. As I stood on the outside of the fence the HD coach stood about 6ft from me as we watched these kids work with him saying nothing but " ok next ". This one boy stepped up and he stood about 6'tall and was around 160lbs. After 3 or 4 pitches with a velocity at the 82-84mph range the coach spoke up as if to speak kinda under his breath but loud enough to hear and said "I'll have that kid throwing about 92mph when he's a senior, I'll get him a scholarship". Now I don't know how relevante this is to the scout being it was a HS coach but it was the speed that he liked
Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
Bizzle,

The kids know better than anyone that what makes the impression on coaches, scouts and others is velocity...the problem is when a kid who is not developed enough tries to throw hard when their body isn't ready for it, which can cause injury. Velocity comes from good mechanics and strength. Strength of the whole body...from the toes up to the arm. Show me a guy who throws with velocity and I will bet, regardless of height and weight, that they have good overall core strength.

All the guys I talk too who throw with high velocities say that they don't feel like they are throwing as hard as they possibly can... and it does not look like they are working very hard to achieve the high velocity. From where I stand it looks almost effortless. Typically, that's because they have developed good overall mechanics and overall body stremgth that support the delivery of a high velocity baseball.

As far as the coach turning the 82-84 mph hurler kid into a 92 mph pitcher... that I suppose will have to be seen since so much can happen between now and then...girls, grades and continued interest in the game often seem to be some deciding factors for teenage boys as they grow older. Anyhow, good luck to him and I hope the coach is right.
Last edited by Coach Waltrip
L LHPMom2012100+ posts
We had a guy who graduated from my son's school in 2008 who threw 94 that spring. When he was gunned in the fall of his freshman year, he hit 72.

There's a senior right now who regularly hits 88. He has hit 88 for three years.

My son told me a story about a pitcher he worked with at a college camp. He was mad that he hadn't hit a certain number on the radar gun, so right before he went out for his last inning, he told the catcher he was going to throw the ball as hard as he could but had no idea where it was going to end up. His mechanics went all to hell, his control went all to hell as he tried desperately to hit this magic number. And that was his slowest inning.

I don't think anyone can predict anything.

LHPMom
mdbaseball10mdbaseball1010+ posts
My son is a pitcher only and has attended many camps/showcases over the years. The same speech is given about how velocity doesn't matter as long as you throw strikes. The thing is though, the radar guns go up and all migrate to the kids with the velocity. Luckily my son is one of those kids reaching 88 and happens to get the attention. We often wonder what happens to the others.....
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
I agree with Coach on this one. My son is one who throws hard for his size. He is 5'9", 155 lbs and this summer got to where he cruised at 84-85 and was hitting 86. He said he felt like he wasn't throwing that hard. I have seen guys much bigger than him not throw that hard. We have had a number of people tell us that he doesn't even look like he is trying.

In one of his last pitching lessons at the end of January, he had a guy who played AAA stand in while he threw to see his stuff. He tried to jack a couple of pitches in harder than usual and dropped 3-4 mph and was not as accurate when he did it. He learned a big lesson that day.

Anyway, I think using your whole body including core and legs in unison is what helps get the velo up there.
southpaw_dadsouthpaw_dad100+ posts
PG -- You are certainly correct, my son has some friends/teammates who are Tools & Apptitude guys; and they are pretty easy to separate from the crowd.

BOF -- Your comment on separation is terrific. Thanks. I look forward to sharing that with southpaw_son. In the end, I guess this really is the goal, to separate yourself from the crowd, to make it easier for coaches/scouts to "see" you.

As to the comments about smooth delivery, etc -- I'll echo that as well. A repeatable, efficient delivery (of the ball or the bat) consistently produces the best results.

To those of you who are coaches/scouts ... it would be very interesting to hear how you rank the different tools for the different positions on the field as you seek to separate players in the the scouting process; and what types of trade-off's you will make when assessing a player (ex: a corner infielder who does not run well, but rakes the ball).

Thanks all.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Southpaw_dad:

Not only is seperation important, but you need to know very specifically who you are measured against. A Lefty pitcher gets a little break on the velocity, but it also depends on his body type. If he is long and lanky and "projects" then he will get an additional break over a shorter kid. It may not be fair, but it is life.

My son tried out for the Area Code team and his coach told him before he he went that he would be compared with big strong corner guys because of his height, and although he is not slow, he did not have CF speed (as compared to who was there) A 6'4" 210lb kid is going to get a break over a 6'3" 170 lb kid when it comes to a corner position. Taller pitchers got a little break on velocity, but if you had a shorter stature you had better be in the 90's some of the taller one's were working high 80's.

If you have not done it yet get to an elite event and see what kind of talent that it is out there, it is pretty amazing. Like PG said there are kids that have "it" along with aptitiude.

Get out there and work hard as there are some really amazing ball players playing HS ball right now.
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