Scouting "Reports"

No argument with PG-attendance/high draft correlation, PGStaff. It's obvious.

 

But I make a good living in PR and Communications at a $100B+ company (I understand positioning), so stay with me if you will ....

 

You brought up Soroka as one I goofed on. You were right. So when I look him up on your website, it says he attended four PG events. Then when I click to see those four events, I see two PG, plus Area Code Games. Total: 3 -- one of which IS Area Code. 

 

So unless I'm a knucklehead and missing something obvious (quite possible), your website DOES list Area Code Games as PG events -- which is why I asked the question. 

 

But DANG!!! This is a rabbit hole. Beyond full transparency -- who cares??

 

I'm no stranger here at HSBBW -- and I'm certainly not a Perfect Game basher!! Hell, I'm the dad of a 2016 who's committed to Oregon in part because they first saw him in JUPITER!

 

AND .. one who's played in 18 PG events and who is, in my opinion, accurately ranked!!

 

I'm just trying to make a couple seemingly obvious points in a thread about PG Scouting "Reports":

 

A: NO ONE, including PG, has cracked the code on predicting with a high degree of accuracy projectible success in baseball at the HS age.

B: The number of PG events a young player attends, his PG ranking and his PG scouting score sometimes do and sometimes don't correlate to his long-term success as a ball player.

 

PLEASE, Jerry or anyone: Tell me specifically where I'm wrong?

 

 

You may be selling predictive analytics short. I'd love to throw the statistical history into AWS or Watson.

What are AWS and Watson?

 

jp24,

 

I don't think you are a PG basher, anyway I hope not.

 

I'm not exaçtly sure what you are getting at.  Guess I didn't know that we counted Area Code, only know we enter info from that event and ECP in our database.  So I imagine those numbers are automatically generated.  So I would guess if a player is listed as attending 25 PG events and one of them happened actually be the AC, the actual number would be 24 PG events plus 1 AC.  Certainly no intention of misleading anyone as every event is listed in the players profile. Guess I can see how some might want to use that as ammo!

 

BTW, if a player has not attended a PG event and did attend Area Code, we do not count him as attending a PG event.

 

There is no certainty in grading, ranking, evaluating, scouting.  However, our track record is àbout as accurate as it gets.  Here are a couple links that might mean something. The first link is the PG Preseason All American lists and shows draft and college commitment results.  This is released before the players senior HS season.  You can check back to previous years to at least see how accurate or inaccurate that list is.

 

The second link is the ongoing list of PG players that have played in the Major Leagues.  Not sure if that is anything you're looking for or not.

 

Just to point out the obvious, the amount of players that played in PG events and ended up in college or pro is irrelevant.  I could put up the exact same type of numbers for just about anything. 

 

99.99% of every US born MLB player played High School Baseball. 

 

How many kids go through a PG event that never play beyond High School??

 

 

 

 

Real Green, in answer to your question without any specifics, I would say a lot have went to a PG event and then not played beyond HS.

 

My son did not attend a PG event. In Ohio, it is not close to get to one. My son's target schools were within a 3 hour range of home and that is where he ended up. However, here in Ohio, PBR, which is a rising showcase company moving quickly across the nation is the showcase company many here attend. It is the events my son went too. Were there lots of young men that attended that did not go beyond? Yes. Were those boys generally identified early as not much skill to go beyond HS(thru simple measurable like Velo, Exit speed, 60, etc. as well as the eye test by experienced men who have seen who translates into college / pro) and did not attend very many. Those players were not invited to the invitation only events.

 

I think it did identify those that did attend and did well those players were elevated in the eyes of college coaches  so that they could take a closer look. I think PG, PBR and, I am sure, others get kids that sign up that don't belong at these showcases. From what I have seen, they are honest in their evaluations.

 

PG has said many times that the PG events are not for everyone, save your money. But it is important for those players who do have talent because it is a recognized organization that puts together data on players and has events where many players of talent come together so college coaches (and MLB) can see many players easily.

 

My son attended a specific event where over 100 college coaches were in attendance. His ability is what got him noticed that day. But we would have had to got to how many different events or personal college showcases to be seen by that many who had the chance to evaluate whether they were interested in him playing for them.

 

So does PG (or PBR in our case) create the ability for the player that is capable of playing in college or pros? No. Do they create events and data base that gives the opportunity for a player to be seen by as many coaches within a much more efficient way of being seen? Yes

 

IMO.

 

 

The relevant question, I guess, is how many of those players who attended a PG event and later went on to play in either the pros or college were able to do so primarily or even in part BECAUSE of the PG event(s) attended.  What contribution does PG make to getting someone into college/pro's.  Obviously some.   How much would be hard to quantify.  You'd have to do a massive controlled, longitudinal study to find out, I would think.

 

 

I wasn't bashing PG.  I just don't drink the Kool-Aid when it comes to that type of data.  My son just turned 14 and heading into his Freshman year.  He is ranked around 15-20 in his Freshman class in a very competitive program.  Still waiting to see what puberty has to bring.  He is a good student and of course would love to play college ball.  The reality is he is an average plus kid for his age (13U) and average minus kid for his class.  10% of the players are already starting the "showcase" process.  Paying for a showcase event to have posted measurable's and play pick up games in front of "scouts."  I don't understand the need other than for the FUN of it all. 

 

It isn't that hard to have a decent understanding of your sons potential.  Find schools that match your sons potential academically, financially, athletically, and get in contact.

 

 

RealGreen,

 

Of course we have had players attend our events that never played beyond HS.  To use your phrase, that could be said about anyone. Guess I don't see how irrelevant it is regarding how many MLB players or draft picks came out of any organization. Would that mean all organizations are the same?

 

Are the percentages also irrelevant.  We certainly don't compete with high school baseball.  However of the kids we actually see and report on the percentage that move on and play at a higher level is extremely high compared to other organizations.

 

Over 700 in the Big Leagues over the past 8 years?  Once you get past High School or College baseball, where else will you find numbers like that?  We average over 90% of the first round picks every year. 

 

Anyway, we don't know for sure how many PG participants don't play beyond HS.  I'm just pretty sure that we have the highest percentage of players that do and especially at the very highest levels.  I just linked two places, but there are lists all over our site from various events over the years.  To be honest we don't always know about every player, some do not report their college to us. 

 

We did have an internal discussion the other day about this.  It is our belief that an extremely high percentage of those that attend our events are in fact talented enough to play college baseball at some level.  Those that attend our events that don't have some type of college ability, simply should not attend our events.  We can't do anything for them.

 

Over the years I have talked to hundreds, maybe thousands, of parents with kids we don't know about, asking me if it is worthwhile for their son to attend a PG event.  I have a standard response that is used every time.  If your son has talent, it is likely you will be happy you attended. If he lacks the necessary talent, you will be throwing your money out the window.

 

We do not want your money if you can't play! In some cases have we taken that money, YES!  but I wish it wouldn't have happened.  Sometimes the money isn't worth the problems.

"We do not want your money if you can't play! In some cases have we taken that money, YES!  but I wish it wouldn't have happened. "

 

There is a simple way to resolve that. Don't take it in the first place. And if it is an obvious disillusioned player, thank them and refund it right away. Why take it when you yourself just said you (wish wouldn't) shouldn't have?

 

Profit? Greed? Business Plan? No middle ground. No aw shucks, too bad. Its black or white.

 

And Statistics? They work both ways. You continuously tout how many players go pro that attend your event. Great! That you have the number and track them.

 

You know what else that implies? Statistically you also know how many attend but DON'T go pro. And can do a short analysis to see how many potentially self report they go college.

 

Whats that number? 1%, 2%, 5%

 

If you are going to advertise the success rate or actual numbers, do you not find it less than genuine to not advertise the non success rate?

 

As in you know the number of players who "If he lacks the necessary talent, you will be throwing your money out the window."

 

Total Players attending - pro draft - estimate for college scholly = window toss number.

 

Very large - miniscule - miniscule squared =  A whole big huge number. one not advertised or promoted.  And rightly so. You couldn't easily hype the hope and hope the dreams into the profit that way.

 

 

 

Exactly!! 

I have a very hard time believing that PG had anything to do with a single MLB player making it! 

He ended up at the college down the street.  What value did this have on his outcome?  Do you think he could have been seen by his current school without PBR? 

InterestObservor,

 

I have to ask... What is your agenda?  Why would this be so important to you? You don't come off being just another poster here. It is obvious you don't like us or me.

 

That said, are you a fool?  Lets see, a kid and his parents travel across the country to attend a PG Showcase.  After the first day we tell him here is your money back get out of here.  Yea, wonder how that would work.

 

100 teams show up to play in a PG tournament, the players have paid to play on one of those teams. After the first day we send the kid home and tell him he is no good!  Yea, that would be the honest thing, right?

 

Where on this sight do you "continuously" see us touting how many go pro? Also, why does this bother you? There are a whole lot more that go to college.  There is a reason we have some of the biggest scouting events in baseball.  Could it be because of the talent?  There is a reason that every MLB club subscribes to our scouting service.  Why would that be?  There is a reason that most every DI college subscribes to our scouting service. Wonder why? There is a reason that the college world series rosters are dominated by those that went to PG events.

 

Look back and find out how many posts I have started about Perfect Game.  I could ignore all the PG questions I guess.  Tell me when I started a post about PG?  I only try to give honest answers to questions.

 

I would bet you anything that you are much more into money than I am.  Also you are much more into bashing.  I just wish you cowardly people that have an obvious agenda and want to bash would come out an identify yourself.  Somehow I bet that would explain everything.

 

People here know who I am, now how about you?

 

 

It is really cool that you get involved in these debates.  Thank you.

Rough numbers:

College has 50,000ish players and lets say they have to replace 25% every year. 

12,500 new college players a year.

HS players rated from 1-15,000  that are ready and willing to play college.  Who do you help?  Do you think PG impacts the top 10 players college options?  The top 100?  What tier player do think benefits the most from your services and why? 

PG has zero impact on the pool of talent available.  Maybe PG redistributes it a little.     

 

 

 

 

 

My agenda is no more or less important than yours or anybody else's. You present a side. I present a side. And a side that happens to warn against your agenda.

 

The sides disagree on value you provide to the majority of players.

The sides disagree on the dominance of the showcase industry.

The sides disagree on the growing prevalence of for profit promoters inserting themselves between high school athletics and college recruiting.

 

Quite simple.

 

 

real green,

 

If you know better, just stay away.  There is no magic bullet to making it.  We never claim anyone has accomplished anything because of PG.  We simply state the results. However, there have been many docomented stories of Big league players saying we had a lot to do.  We don't make kids talented, we identify talented kids. Scouts and college recruiters didn't make that high school player talented, they just happened to see him and they want him.

 

If your son is 14, and ends up being very talented, there is a very good chance we are going to see him, whether you like it or not. 

 

Once again, why are you so wrapped up in this.  You have a 14 year old son, do you have everything mapped out for him?  The numbers we give are as accurate as possible.  They don't lay claim that we did anything other than scout them at our events. Nothing more and nothing less, take the time to compare if you want to. But what is your reason for coming on here and arguing about things. If you don't like us, just stay away from us.  We certainly don't shove anything down anyone's throat.

Don't usually like to step into food fights.  

 

But obviously you've got some bone to pick with PG. I don't really get the vituperation or bitterness.  PG is a businessman in a business that is responding to a more or less antecedently existing market.  Seems like they were clever enough to see the market emerging and clever enough to find away to serve that market in a profitable way.

 

Nothing wrong with that.

 

I stress that the market is generated not by them from scratch but by a a combination of players, parents, recruiters and scouts and their desires.   On one side, there are the players and their parents who want to be seen and measured.  ON the other side, there are the scouts and recruiters who want to do the seeing and who want to know the measurements -- without necessarily having to collect them themselves.  Doubt PG stuff is alt they use, but if they find it useful they are willing to pay something for it. 

 

Seems pretty simple.  Just good old capitalism at work -- supply and demand and all that. 

 

There are lots of other players trying to play in the same market, obviously.     PG seems to be a dominant player in the market.  But not for lack of competition or because of collusion or anything like that.   Mainly they just provide a service that people find useful at a price they are willing to pay.  IF you don't find it useful at the relevant price.  Don't pay it. 

 

So I don't get your  beef with PG.

 

If there's a problem, it's probably with what generates the demand in the first place (at least one side of it)  --- I'm thinking of  parents and players who see stars in their eyes and who go looking for someone not to put out the stars but you know to help stoke the fire.  If that doesn't happen, the get disappointed and upset and blame the messenger.  Sounds like what you're doing, maybe.   

 

 

OK I admit, we do not help anyone! We don't care about anything except money. we never donate to worthwhile causes and we actually hate baseball and only do it to get rich.  Nothing we do has ever helped a college a scout or a player. we never do anything to promote and grow the game.  We lie about all the numbers and we claim to be god. we sell dreams to unsuspecting kids and parents, telling them all they are going to the Big leagues if they attend our events.  We have single handidly ruined baseball in this country, making us traitors! We are destined to go to hell.

 

Geez, and the goal was to do something good!

 

Really guys this shit gets old after awhile. I don't have time to keep up with you.

I agree with PG. This discussion is getting old and repetitive. Don't like PG and their services? Don't go. Have a legitimate question or concern? Let them know. I've seen PGStaff respond to legitimate concerns in a very timely manner. But, continuing to bring up the same old talking points over and over is just distracting from productive conversation. We get it. You don't like the service. Move on.

It's just curiosity.  I have nothing against PG events at all.  They sound like a lot of fun and well ran events. 

It's just the results you post don't pass my sniff test is all.  If anything they seem more like internal reports for your staff in capturing the potential cliental.

 

What percentage of college players played HS, Babe Ruth, Cal Ripken, or LL?  It would be like Triple Crown or USSSA claiming 90% of all college players played in one of their events.     

 

What rank player do you think you have the biggest impact on?  1-15000 college bound players.  Top third? Bottom third? Middle third?  What is that impact?  Scholarship dollars, school options, playtime, etc???? 

 

 

 

Well those are legitimate enough questions -- at least some of them. (Quite a stretch to ask how much attendance at showcase/tournaments pre-college have an impact on college or even pre-college playing time.)  

 

To answer your legitimate questions one would have to do a massive controlled study to suss out the different sources of variance and measure the impact of each one.  Don't see why you're browbeating PG over them though.  They've got no responsibility to do such a study. Why would they?  But they do have a right to market their services just like any other business.

Don't forget you over charge for parking!!!! LOL see you next July if not sooner. 

I am not trying to browbeat PG in anyway and if my son continues to play I am sure he will participant in a PG event.  PG Staff is the head of the biggest showcase company in the industry.  I am truly interested in his answer to my question. 

PG staff, how do I send you a PM? I don't even know how. Lol. Have a question for you and it's not a complaint.

This thread is hard to believe. I'm still a newbie, and 2019Son hasn't been to a PG event or any showcase, but I can't understand the vitriol directed towards PG and the showcase circuit.

 

And it seems to me that it is not that hard to calculate many of the measurables before going to a showcase -- in other words, you can accurately figure out, beforehand, what your kid's top fastball velocity is, what his 60 time is, how hard he can throw across the diamond or from the outfield . . . and I would think people would keep that in mind before signing up for a showcase. So if the kid is a high school junior and he's going to run a 7.9 sixty, top out at 78 mph from the hill, etc., the exposure to recruiters he can get from PBR, PG, or the like is not going to be all that helpful, to say the least. If the people signing up for showcases don't have ANY idea beforehand how their kid is going to stack up, and they then end up disappointed with PBR or PG, well . . . there is an old saying about a fool and his money.

 

OTOH, if you have a pretty good idea how your kid is likely to do, AND the kid is likely to do well enough that you would want recruiters to have access to that independently-verified data (e.g., not what dad says his fastball velocity is), it seems like the showcase circuit could be very valuable. Maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but I look at it as (1) figure out if your kid's measurables are any good; (2) if they are good and you want broader exposure for them, consider attending a showcase; and (3) if the measurables aren't any good OR the measurables are good but you don't want or need extra exposure, don't attend a showcase. It's not like anyone is forcing you to attend.

I think if a kid is really good, a standout, that contacting the coaches directly with small youtube clips will do just as good with very little if any costs.   Unfortunately there are some parents that believe and are led to believe by well meaning friends and family that their son is a stud.  Coupled with events such as Coast to Coast, Baseball factory, etc, providing an avenue for anyone that can pay it just compounds the frustration in the end.  I'm just glad I wisened up when I did and not 2 years and thousands of more dollars later.  

 

(1) Find a post of PGStaff's and click the link associated with his name. This will pull up his profile.

(2) Look on the right-hand side of his profile for "Start Dialog." and click it. A window will pop up with a subject line and area below it for the body of your message.

(3) Compose your message and submit it.

 

PG has lots of support here and rightfully so, IMO he should ignore a few of the haters

I wouldn't feel bad about taking someones money that was a little below par. There is so much information available to people they should know what they are getting into. Heck your practically warning them that their lack of talent will be exposed. I think kids on the bubble between good and real good have the most to gain. These are kids that might have a chance of really landing the perfect fit somewhere, or maybe upgrading by having a good day in front of a few dozen scouts. And don't forget about the folks who have money and are not afraid to spend it on JR even if their kid looks like Donald Trump out there running around!

Donald Trump is a 1964 C/RHP with a 6-3 210 lb. frame from New York, NY who attended New York Military Academy. Fordham Commit. Extra large semi-athletic build, strong with nominal room to get stronger. Top level talker with strength behind the microphone, willing to take issues head-on with little regard to backlash, light on his feet for his size, hopefully will not outgrow the catching position. Right handed hitter, closed stance, gets fully closed to ideas other than his, gets to front side, hits balanced and under control, gets far right and stays there almost to an exaggerated degree, has power potential but needs to work on his approach.   Fluid talker with rough delivery that has lots of run, pounds the democratic half of the zone, developing change up, has some potential on the mound. Stands out physically and has the stamina to stay long after his run is over.  Will be the last to realize when it’s time to hang ‘em up.

 

I just received an "invitation" for my son to register for the PG Showcase in McKinney Texas Aug 7-9.  I guess I just send in my money with the hopes my son will be the next Prince Fielder (there is photograph and mention that he was the 2002 1st round pick). 

I'm sure I could send my 13 y.o. (who is all thumbs) along with my $650 payment and there would be no questions asked.  There is even a form to cut out to hand to local businesses to subsidize this endeavor.  I keep telling myself it's all about the kids. 

The beauty of our country is that it is a free market, you want to use a service or buy a product do so. If not then don't - pretty simple. Lionbaseball you seem to have it all figured out so why bother to even post or read the stuff here? 

 

For the record I was pretty conservative about how we spent our money and what events we went to. I waited until my son was a rising Soph and went to a PG "showcase" event (it was the first and only one we ever attended in the process) I had an idea, but was not really sure where he fit in the overall HS baseball universe. The PG event confirmed to me where he fit, against known competition (some of the top kids in Cal were there) he got in their database with a pretty accurate representation of where he fit. His travel team subsequently went to a number of PG tournaments and over the years you could see how he developed with their scouting reports linked to his profile, it was useful for us,  and I am sure it was a useful tool for the programs that were tracking him. It cost me $600 and it was money well spent IMO. If you don't think its worth the money don't go. Just a final note I take it with a grain of salt the Dad of a 13 YO who seems to know a lot more about the process than some of us who have navigated (successfully I might add) through the whole recruiting quagmire. . 

 

My 2 cents. 

 

Cheers

 

lionbaseball,

 

Please send no money. We don't want it.  The only reason your son got that is because we didn't know who his father was. However your son must be fairly good.  I'm sure he will do just fine without us. 

 

Once again, we do not want your money.  BTW, you have no idea how often college coaches ask us about a players parents.  You would be surprised by how many coaches try to avoid potential problems from complaining parents.  Complaining parents can make a coaches life miserable and even jeopardize his job.

 

Some parents learn too late!  I hope you are not one of them. I hope you don't get in the way of your son's baseball opportunities. Somehow, I doubt you would even recognize it if you did. Then again, what would I know about all that?

You guys are confusing cause and effect.  All PG (and other showcase organizations) has done is find a market inefficiency and correct it.  Traveling from town to town trying to find baseball talent is very inefficient.  Having baseball talent come to a central location is efficient.  They provide a forum for players and recruiters to "mingle."  Kind of like speed dating or match.com.  That's really the extent of their participation.  Some people get married, some don't. 

 

Now just because you go to an event, doesn't mean you'll get recruited.  The reverse is also true -- you can get recruited without attending an event.  But, it has become the place to be seen -- so people go.  It's no different than Studio 54 in the 70's -- it was the place to be seen. 

 

 

       
       

This is so true. PG doesn't create the talent. They are not "responsible" for players moving to the next level whether that be college or pro. They simply provide a service to bring the two together. If a kid is talented, hopefully they will be able to hook up with a scout or recruiter who likes what they see. If they are not talented, there is nothing PG can or claims to do about that. They are not in the business of developing talent. They are not a baseball academy. They are in the business of helping identify talent and bringing together the talent with the people that have a need for that talent. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you don't think that service or opportunity will be a benefit to your son, just don't go. My mailbox is full every day with advertised services that I don't think I need. I'm sure there are people out there that would benefit from those services even though I don't. I just throw them in the trash. You can do the same with PG invites if you don't want to go. You don't have to denegrade the service just because you think it's something you don't think you'll benefit from.

This discussion has really just become absurd.

Unfortunately you already have a portion of my money for the PG event next week in Georgia.  Because I am loyal to the team I wouldn't dream of taking my kid off of the team.  We are looking forward to a nice vacation in Georgia with some baseball in between. 

 

I already know about the scouts and obnoxious parents.  Don't worry I'm not one of them.    Don't confuse posts on a forum and behavior at a game.  I promise that I'm the parent that would be unrecognizable because I rarely say anything during a game unless it's positive reinforcement. 

 

I just wish there were representatives on this forum from Coast to Coast and Baseball factory so you don't have to take the brunt of parents frustrations.  

 

And to BOF, I was being facetious with my comment on my 13 y.o.  For the record here are the ages of my kids;  25, 23, 21, 19, 17 (birthday today), 15, 13, 10, 8.  So I've been around the block a few times already.  

I have tried to figure out what your point is and quite frankly I can't figure it out.  How is PG in anyway wrong for allowing a player to attend an open event? I have heard time and time again that nearly any player can play at the next level, obviously not at the highest levels but there are a variety of levels within college and a variety of levels within each division.  If a player truly does not have the skills to play at any of the talent levels of the next level then perhaps the parent should be looking out for their own kid.  Who is PG to crush a kids dream?  There are kids who started out with a 5 or 6 showcase rating and ended up drafted after putting in some hard work (I can't remember the name but I think he went to the Cubs).  I personally know of a kid who had a 6.5 and plays in the SEC on a VERY good team now.  Many kids progress after PG events due to maturity and/or hard work.

You say you don't like that they insert themselves between high school sports and college recruiting. So that suggests that you think most kids have different avenues to be seen and promoted?  How so?   I am just trying to understand your side and I just don't.

True, he did. and Maybe. I do know they saw him first at 2 PBR showcases and then started coming to his games, had him on campus, etc

 

In the end would we have went to their individual team camp. Probably.

 

I assume you have read my son's journey somewhat, I do think that PBR helped create some competition between schools in summer before his senior year. A HS game is what went crazy for him, PBR was apart by happening to be there.  They wrote a nice article about how he did. They wrote a couple article that week in-between games about his journey and were at the one were lots of radar guns were. I know the Ohio PBR president (not sure if that is his title but the guy in charge) personally mostly because of that few weeks. He was fielding calls on my son's behalf all the time from colleges across the nation. It was nice that he could personally say what he had seen of my son.