Selecting the JUCO route

I guess my decision point would be "not the strongest" versus "weak".  If truly weak, then JUCO might be best to get some classes needed before moving to a 4 yr and maybe see if college is truly workable.  If academics are simply not a priority at this time, then now might be the time to make the commitment to put in the effort and tackle the 4yr school academics.  Given the level of support that is provided at many schools, I would hope this is doable and baseball could provide the carrot and/or stick that will get him motivated.  The initial selection of a major can be important as I assume he would not want to jump into engineering or such - first year is often limited to some basic courses which, if chosen properly, are not extremely academically challenging.  If he figures out school and ends up excelling, then he can always upgrade his major.  

Don't make the mistake of assuming he would get "more" playing time at a JuCo.  Depending on the program it can be very competitive.

Academics in college, no matter where you go, can be very tough to adjust to.  Time management is at a premium, and there are plenty of distractions.

I have an older son who is now 25.  He struggled a little in high school in terms of grades.  He  went to a relatively smaller school for undergrad and it took him a year or so to get his academic footing.  He ended up excelling academically and is now at a prestigious Grad School.  He played some club sports part-time in undergrad but has told me that he can't imagine getting the grades he got if he had been playing on a team as well.  Doesn't mean it can't be done, of course, but the demands are significant.

Now, none of what I posted is about Baseball, but I just wanted to say that you are wise to try to find the right academic fit for your son.   

The JUCO situation in Southern California is really tough on both fronts.  The baseball teams are loaded with lots of D1 talent players who did not make the grades to play D1 and are now trying to get there. A kid who is not a top baseball talent is not likely to play much.  And then many of the core classes are filled with lots of motivated students who either could not get admitted into the increasingly competitive UC and State schools (despite many having high GPAs and test scores) or really bright kids who do not know what they want to major in so they go JUCO to save money while they sort it out.  Thus, there is a lot of competition for the grades too.

That combination makes JUCO no fall back for many kids who want to play baseball while building up their grades for later movement to a D1. 

There is a JUCO in southern Wisconsin, Madison College.  Just a quick look through their roster, all of their IF's were either 1st or 2nd Team All-Conference in High School.   And this is a team that finished just 1 game over .500 in 2016

 Same with a few of the IL JUCO's I know about, Rock Valley, and Joliet

You have to be really good to play JUCO Baseball.  

Dadofa17 posted:

My 2017 is at that point where he needs to narrow down his list of schools.  Academically, he is not the strongest student.  I am afraid that if he ends up at many of the D1 schools out there, he could end up crashing and burning academically.  I am assuming that If he goes to a top D1 JUCO, he should get more playing time, plus a better chance at academic success.  

The big thing here is my assumption regarding playing time and academics.  The better 4 year schools have great academic support for their athletes.  I don't see this at most JUCOs.  

Thoughts?

Hey Dad...

I'm a bit confused at your thoughts on academics.  You are assuming he will have a better chance at academic success at a JUCO but you just don't see academic support at most Juco's.  Those statements seem to contradict.

I agree with the latter.  Some of the JC's I am familiar with require athletes to attend an hour of what amounts to study hall if their GPA is below x level but that's about it.  There will be various listings of tutors available for hire but I think generally, JUCO students are left to fend for themselves more so than at any typical D3-D1, NAIA options.  And the baseball workload can be just as difficult since there seems to be less restrictions on practice time and when in the fall they can start.  I think class size would generally be a bit smaller than big D1/D2 schools but I have seen some pretty big ones at JC's, certainly bigger than those at typical smaller D3/NAIA private schools.  And, while there are certainly exceptions, most JC's are public and instructors are no more motivated to help your student succeed than at any other level - arguably less.  At the smaller privates, there seems to be much more willingness to help during and outside of the classroom.  If he goes JC and is not a strong student, I would make sure he has access to outside help.

JUCO opportunities vary greatly by location.  The more competitive the league = more D1/D2 scouts/coaches  watching.    There maybe alot of D1 talent in SoCal JC leagues, however, If a kid is a legit D1 talent he will play, a marginal D2 talent might not play on a strong JC team. The SoCal JC leagues are competitive but most of the players move onto D2, 

Some JC coaches do a good job at getting the kids to take the right classes, some others not so much.  Ultimately it comes down the student's willingness to put forth the required  classroom effort, whether its College of Marin or UCLA.  

" generally, JUCO students are left to fend for themselves more so than at any typical D3-D1, NAIA options"  

Although it varies by school, I would disagree.  Generally speaking  kids will find the JUCO instructors to be more available to help then the professors at 4 year schools.  I.e. my wife took Chem 1a at UC Berkeley with 900 other students, she didn't get any one on one time with the instructor,   sure my wife had a T/A who spoke English as a second language to help out....  My JC Chem 1a class had 15 students ...and used the same book......

Thanks everyone who responded.  I guess if there were an easy answer to these questions, I would already know the answer.    In a way, it comes down to finding a school where there is enough academic support to meet the rigor of the classes offered.   and maybe trying to lump 4 year versus 2 year is not the way to look at this.   

JUCO's can be a great option.  In many states (WI/IL/MN for sure) JUCO's are easier academically than the D1's in-state, and cost way less.  

What is sons GPA if u don't mind sharing. Some parents think low 3's is bad.

he has a yr left of HS, I would get busy finding him tutors, someone to teach him study skills, and ACT tutor as well. 

The thing that shocked me the most at sons school is players, esp freshmen who had grade problems. School had mandatory study hall, but son said many goofed off and didn't use time wisely. Coach talked to many about grades, and some lost scholarships, and were cut. Sure this happens everywhere. 

Its hard to play and keep up w grades. Coaches don't have time for immature kids who don't take it seriously, skip classes, or are lazy. 

Its not HS, where kids live at home, have parents who cook, clean,etc.

we need to teach our kids to be RESPONSIBLE  so they can succeed at college by themselves. Stop being their safety net, and let them fail if needed in HS-better than learning that lesson at college. Goes for non athletes too.

sorry I went off topic,I've seen more in 1 yr w son away at school then I thought. Learned a lot on how school/athletics/injuries, etc. works.

This is where you really need to do your homework on the coach. Some coaches care about your grades. Now when I say care I mean actually do things to help students meet their academic goals. My experience with my son was at our visit the coach said everything a parent wanted to hear. Reality he did none and actually told the kids they were there to play baseball and you need to figure out how to remain eligible. 

12pitches - wish you could tell us what school you are talking about..

In our area, most JUCO's, are non-residential. So, no dorms, no cafeterias and meal plans, and no campus life/activities etc... So, athletes who live outside of the local area must find an apartment, and prepare or buy their own food and live as an adult off campus. It is common for upperclassmen at many four year colleges to move off-campus by their junior year. However, it is another thing for a freshman living away from home for the first time while trying to manage school and playing a sport.

And living  in an apartment means no resident advisors on your hall to keep check of things, or tell you to turn the music down, or a resident director who may intercede with campus security if there is an issue. An issue at an apartment means blue lights and badges.

My son attended a JUCO and began his college life in an apartment as a 17 year old freshman who didn't turn 18 until October of that first semester. I would describe his first semester as great adjustment wise, but a bit rocky grade wise. He survived the first semester and it all worked out. However, some of his teammates didn't make it back after Christmas and I know of several other kids who didn't work out at JUCO's.

While some of those kids had issues with playing time, the main issue usually revolves around grades and attendance. Usually kids flunk because they don't study (they didn't have to in HS) or they aren't showing up for class.

The general ed requirements for an associate's degree at a JUCO are the same general ed courses required at the flagship state universities and the liberal arts private institutions. Basically, everyone's got to take freshman English, college algebra, history, a science sequence and social sciences. It's the same courses everywhere. The degree of difficulty can vary depending solely on the instructor, regardless of which type of institution.

CollegeParentNoMore posted:

" generally, JUCO students are left to fend for themselves more so than at any typical D3-D1, NAIA options"  

Although it varies by school, I would disagree.  Generally speaking  kids will find the JUCO instructors to be more available to help then the professors at 4 year schools.  I.e. my wife took Chem 1a at UC Berkeley with 900 other students, she didn't get any one on one time with the instructor,   sure my wife had a T/A who spoke English as a second language to help out....  My JC Chem 1a class had 15 students ...and used the same book......

The requirement at my son's JUCO is a 2 Hour Study Hall on Sunday Nights, and a 2 Hour Study Hall on Tuesday Nights.  If the player has a really good GPA (I think it is a 3.5), then the second semester they can drop the Tuesday Night Study Hall.  Son loved not having to go the second semester last year, when the majority of players did.

Stafford posted:

In our area, most JUCO's, are non-residential. So, no dorms, no cafeterias and meal plans, and no campus life/activities etc... So, athletes who live outside of the local area must find an apartment, and prepare or buy their own food and live as an adult off campus. It is common for upperclassmen at many four year colleges to move off-campus by their junior year. However, it is another thing for a freshman living away from home for the first time while trying to manage school and playing a sport.

And living  in an apartment means no resident advisors on your hall to keep check of things, or tell you to turn the music down, or a resident director who may intercede with campus security if there is an issue. An issue at an apartment means blue lights and badges.

My son attended a JUCO and began his college life in an apartment as a 17 year old freshman who didn't turn 18 until October of that first semester. I would describe his first semester as great adjustment wise, but a bit rocky grade wise. He survived the first semester and it all worked out. However, some of his teammates didn't make it back after Christmas and I know of several other kids who didn't work out at JUCO's.

While some of those kids had issues with playing time, the main issue usually revolves around grades and attendance. Usually kids flunk because they don't study (they didn't have to in HS) or they aren't showing up for class.

The general ed requirements for an associate's degree at a JUCO are the same general ed courses required at the flagship state universities and the liberal arts private institutions. Basically, everyone's got to take freshman English, college algebra, history, a science sequence and social sciences. It's the same courses everywhere. The degree of difficulty can vary depending solely on the instructor, regardless of which type of institution.

 

 

My son's JUCO has dorms, and he has a meal plan.  It is just like a small college.  Great Campus and the boys have a great time.  All JUCOS are not created equal.

don't forget about the NCAA clearinghouse  if your son is graduating next year he should be registered by now.. The link below has some great info...

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/eligib..._Reference_Sheet.pdf

For what its worth my daughter just finished her 2nd year at our local community college, she will be going to Kent State next year... Every credit was accepted .  she stayed at home , worked part time. Total cost for 2 years at the local was around $11,000,   Her 1st years housing will cost me that at Kent!

Study hall is great if kids use them as they should. Some go in and waste time, and it can look like they are working. I recommend all parents set expectations before kids leave in Fall. Many teenagers are too immature and can't handle first yr. of being on their own. It's harder when sports are involved. 

i had two go the JUCO route.  it's about time management at a D1 or a JUCO. The difference is the D1 will have a tighter grip on the academics part.  I would ask what his grades are?  And are the D1 schools state or private?  Are the Juco's in CA , TX , TN, FL   ?  Juco's differ so much in talent....

Do not think that going to a JUCO will mean a better opportunity at playing time.  I just need to know more specifics to really give an opinion

I would say that you're somewhat at a crossroad here and need to consider his long term goals.  You can broadly lump most (maybe 80% of all college bound baseball players) into one of three categories.

• Considering strong academic kids, many of them use their athletics to get into colleges they might not otherwise, so their goal is to attend the highest academic school they can in search of the best education available.  Clearly their number one priority is education. 
• Another group of kids have baseball as their first priority and want to either get drafted early or attend the best college baseball program they can to get exposure and grow for future drafts.  They happen to get some education along the way of pursuing their pro aspirations.
• Finally, some kids just love baseball and want to play and get the athlete experience while getting their education.  I would say that all three groups would love to get drafted at some point, just each places that at a different priority level.

It sounds like your son is one one of the two latter buckets.

That said, if you believe your kid is likely to be drafted in a later round (I assume he doesn't project as an early round '17 or you would likely have D1's down your throat), then the crossroad you find yourself at is how low is too low in the draft to turn pro?  Does your son want to go to college?  What is his goal for going to college?  Is baseball a higher priority to him than school?  I ask these questions because if education is ahead of baseball in his priorities, then you might consider not playing ball in college to allow the time needed to be successful in the classroom.  And if that is the route he wants to choose, then perhaps he's a better candidate to sign as a late rounder, give it a go as a pro, then go to school if pro ball doesn't pan out.

I guess I'm complicating things a bit by saying that the decision isn't D1 or Juco, but rather D1, Juco or Pro.  Although adding that third option may actually simplify it for him as the path may become more obvious.

Of course if he isn't likely to be drafted out of HS, then I'd consider whether he should play ball in college at all if it prevents him from being successful in the classroom.

bacdorslider posted:

i had two go the JUCO route.  it's about time management at a D1 or a JUCO. The difference is the D1 will have a tighter grip on the academics part.  I would ask what his grades are?  And are the D1 schools state or private?  Are the Juco's in CA , TX , TN, FL   ?  Juco's differ so much in talent....

Do not think that going to a JUCO will mean a better opportunity at playing time.  I just need to know more specifics to really give an opinion

A little more information:  He ended this semester with a 3.3, but is sitting at a 2.85 for the past three years.  Although I would love to see him as a 4.0 student, it will not happen.  He does have some learning issues.  And he is also not the most motivated student.  We had one of the top D1 engineering schools approach him.  We both knew he could contribute to the baseball team, but would never make it past freshman year in the classroom.  Tutors can only help so much.

As for where he will go:  We are looking at the southeast.  Mainly Florida Georgia and Alabama.  Most of these do not have dorms, and that is one of my concerns.  - We are starting with the top 50 list from PG.

Baseball talent wise, he should be able to play at a top D1.  I know as his dad, I may be biased.  But that is what we are being told by college and travel ball coaches.  (He actually has a private work out scheduled with an MLB scout next week.)   

great info, what position (s) does he play....So he tanked the grades as a freshman and Soph... now he's playing catch-up.  What degree is he seeking?   My oldest is at an engineering school,  they have one baseball  player attempting that degree.

Has he been offered any money at either a D1 or a Juco?  Not to sound harsh but a 2017 should be a little further down the recruiting path, especially for top D1's...... there's a reason why he is not committed to SEC or ACC schools.  Are you thinking more like mid-level D1's

The biggest difference between the top Juco's and the mid-level D1's is team depth.. the batting order might have three or four studs in Juco, the D1 has the the entire order.  the D1 has more and a variety of pitching.

I would not be too concerned about living in either a dorm ( D1) or an apartment ( Juco) I would be more concerned with how far away from home he will be.  

From what you have told me I would lean towards D1 if it's financially a good move.   There will be more restrictions, tutors, and likely more coaches to keep him in line.  He might forgo some playing time as a freshman.  

depending on the JUCO he might get to play , and playing is important, but he might not get to play and he could get lost in the Juco shuffle and not end up playing D1.

I think I would keep every avenue open until he gets solid offers, then think of how far away he will be, if he can attend the school if baseball evaporates, do they have the degree he wants....

Dadofa17 posted:

As for where he will go:  We are looking at the southeast.  Mainly Florida Georgia and Alabama.  Most of these do not have dorms, and that is one of my concerns.  - We are starting with the top 50 list from PG. 

Florida SouthWestern State (Fort Myers) is probably one of the only schools on that list, in those states, with on-campus housing.

MidAtlanticDad posted:

Dadofa17 posted:

As for where he will go:  We are looking at the southeast.  Mainly Florida Georgia and Alabama.  Most of these do not have dorms, and that is one of my concerns.  - We are starting with the top 50 list from PG. 

Florida SouthWestern State (Fort Myers) is probably one of the only schools on that list, in those states, with on-campus housing.

Thanks.  He will be playing in Fort Myers in three weeks.  We will try and arrange a visit while he is there.  

Does JUCO fall baseball count against your eligibility or is it only spring baseball that counts against your 4 year eligibility?

Something to also look at would be a post grad program where the kids go to JUCO for the classes, but the team is not affiliated with the school although they will play a college schedule.  Here is a link to one in the Dallas area for reference as I am sure there are more around.  Might be worth a look at a program like this in your area.  

http://www.tcspostgrad.com/

Dan1122 posted:

Does JUCO fall baseball count against your eligibility or is it only spring baseball that counts against your 4 year eligibility?

I think that would depend on which NCAA division you are transferring to, and whether you transfer after the fall semester or the spring semester.

Dan1122 posted:

Does JUCO fall baseball count against your eligibility or is it only spring baseball that counts against your 4 year eligibility?

Once  a student enrolls as a full-time student, the eligibility clock begins to tick.  Most schools define full-time enrollment as a student taking at least 12 credit hours (semester), but that can vary.   Best to check with the school.