Seriously what would you do?

Im a HS coach and I kind of have the same issue, but with a pitcher. The Sophomore pitcher is showing his pitches on every single pitch. So I've been trying to get him to hide the ball a little more and extend his arm back further. But he tells me, "That's how my instructor wants me to do it." Im going to go to one of his private sessions just to observe to see if I can understand why he teaches that way.

As a coach it is my job to continue to learn. If I stop trying to learn myself then I'm in no position to teach.

Sounds like Pitching 101.  

Hopefully the kid's parents will get their money back.  

One point my son's HS coach mentioned to the pitchers I liked was that if you dig in your glove for one pitch then dig in your glove every pitch so as not to let the batter know what type of pitch is coming.  (See, I can compliment a coach. )

I also believe that some parent's that are paying for instructors automatically assume expertise.  

Having said all that if a HS coach isn't getting acceptance by a player on his method of baseball he has every right to sit the player on the bench.  This goes for my son also. 

My view is this: Most people -- here and elsewhere -- who have a problem with a high school coach have a problem because their kid did not get to play enough to suit their expectations. I just don't see good players harmed in any measurable way from questionable coaching advice. I also don't see many players who don't succeed in high school make it in any meaningful way in college (or on truly top--level) travel teams for that matter. I do see a lot of people pay an outside instructor a lot of money that results in a false sense of accomplishment or an unrealistic evaluation of their son's ability. I see these players mainly on the bench in high school and hardly any of them are happy about it.

 

The best high school coaches I know here in AZ say no outside instruction during the season. I agree with that and would make the same rule if I were a high school coach. The first time a player told me his outside instructor did not want him to do something the way I was teaching it, I would get a different player. The coach I know best who did this retired with 10 state championships and nearly 800 victories in 30 years of coaching, with three Major Leaguers and more to come not to mention too many college players to count. Summer teams are great -- and my sons have started on teams that go to Jupiter and that have also player in the Connie Mack World Series -- but keep in mind, the best high school players usually can be found on the best summer teams, and not one of them would have selected their summer team over the high school team.

I agreed much earlier in this thread with cabbage. Still do, only right way to handle it.
Basically a life lesson on respect and communication.

On the subject of bad summer coaches. We left our team last year, due to a self centered biased coach. It was his way or the highway. He told me frankly my kid couldn't compete with the other two shortstops. Up to that point he had never seen my son field. I about choked. Thought to myself, no worries he'll show them, so I calmly replied " that's ok put where you think is best. Turns out the asst coaches son wanted to play there. We suspected the asst coach was paying some of the head coaches travel expenses.
He then would not communicate to us on what his plan was with our son.
While in HS and college playing time should not be questioned, in expensive travel ball a parent has every right! Especially when he is unarguably the best player on the team.
Turned out 5 more kids quit also over the next few tournaments.

Their team proceeded to play .300 baseball due mostly to lack of hitting. He had preached a style from day one 10 months earlier. He eventually changed the approach he preached and believed in, for the last few tournaments.
He has since been dismissed from the coaching ranks in that organization and surrounding programs.

I think some of you are being overly sensitive to the HS coach "bashing."  There are good and bad coaches at all levels.  If you're around long enough, you'll see the good, the bad, and the ugly. 

 

Nobody is saying all HS coach's are bad.  But, guess what, they aren't always right either (even the good ones).  And not all of the parents are idiots either -- ok most are.  Somewhere in all of this there is a balance.

 

Coach, I am sure you are a great man and a great coach.  The issue that I have with this post, is the "Sit Down & Shut Up".  I have come to realize that I must not communicate with my son's coach because it is a detriment going forward.  However, I did have to step in previously, because this decorated, successful, old school coach was doing things I believed were a danger, physically & mentally to the boys.  Although, I knew it would cause problems, I did what I felt was right, and I make no apologies for that!  

 

Administrators that think parents should not advocate on the part of their kids, are wrong IMO.  I let my son take care of everything he can, and he generally does, but if their is mental and physical abuse going on, I will step in.  

 

Sometimes doing the right thing isn't easy, and someone needed to step in and protect these kids.  I love these kids, and I wasn't going to sit by and watch them get mistreated. I believe things improved after my email to the coach, and I hope they continue this year. 

Ryno:

 

The problem I have with this approach is that most parents who believe they are being heroic in reality are not and they are driven by self interest -- what they believe is best for their kid, even at the detriment of other kids.

 

But that is not what this thread is about -- or was about. It is whether to listen to the high school coach or the outside instructor. Most high school coaches I know are outstanding. Some outside instructors (and I have used a lot) are outstanding, others are not. Lots of them create a false impression for parents of their players, leading to more problems than a perceived lack of ability by the high school coach to teach the game.

 

In general, I distrust most parents when it comes to their kid. They have a powerful force that motivates them and frequently makes them blind to the reality that the other kid just might be better than their kid. As I said earlier, the best players advance (barring injury or some other negative outside influence). The ones that don't advance just need to accept that in the end they were just not good enough. The funny thing is players seem to understand that while parents do not.

 

I have never been a high school coach (I have been a summer coach), but I salute them collectively for all they do to make the game great for so many players. To parents, I strongly advocate the sit down and shut up approach.

 Ryno,and Golfman,

 We may have too many HS coaches on here to get a fair and balanced discussion. And sometimes you have to watch the old posters grouping together and try to put their one size fits all propaganda out there. Some people can't see things from the other side of the fence And they feel threatened maybe by something new or what they don't understand. I have read a few post and I can hear parents frustrations, and sometimes I feel like there could of been some exaggeration in the story just to make their point, I don't hold that against them but I look hard to see what they are trying to convey. I will see over 110 baseball players today and Im sure their parents all have a story to tell. But I wont assume they are lying just because I don't like what they say.

Jemaz, I didn't need to step forward for my son, as I did for the others, and I am not really concerned if you believe that or not.  There was a real, and not perceived, danger perpetrated on son's high school team.  

 

My my son will do just fine in baseball, I don't need to step in on his behalf...

I have seen the same thing.  It seems there are some, that think because you are a parent, you must be an idiot...

Or maybe some folks can see things on the other side of the fence because they have had players in the game for a very long time and seen most all of the parental behaviors toward and about HS coaches.  The issue under discussion isn't new and so far I have not read anything novel or earth shattering being offered. In contrast,I haven't seen anything but  many reasons being offered to suggest HS coaches are not the root of all evil, based on the experience of a number of "old timers' who have son's who played the game pretty successfully.  Would your view, The Doctor, be that our sons had success, apparently, "despite" their HS coaches? Are we not permitted to offer our views and experiences?

The biggest critic of our son's HS coach were the parents of the best player on the team, who knew little to nothing about the game and never  played baseball.

Sometimes the long view puts situations and discussions like this in perspective.

One "long" view I will relate goes back to a senior league coach of a group of 13-14 year olds.  Every parent of a player on his team was outraged the entire season because of his coaching style and approach. He didn't care about winning.  They practiced fundamentals from the first day to the last of the season, with day one being 2 hours on the fundamentals of fielding ground balls. Parents were ballistic and made it clear he would not coach again.

Fast forward: that coaches son has been mentioned many times on this site as a great baseball story and an example of what it takes to succeed.  His name is Daniel Nava.

Sometimes the long view such as those being discussed by posters such as jemaz are so valuable, if we are open to listening.

Every college coach I have spoken with or have heard speak at showcases/clinics (probably in the hundreds now) has specifically said that they want kids who play HS baseball.  You're absolutely correct in that HS ball is not the best for kids to be recruited these days...that is really where it happens in summer ball.  But to say that HS baseball isn't important...that is wrong.  Many, many college coaches have said that a kid who didn't play HS ball is a red flag for them.  There was a recent thread on this with some good info from PGStaff too...even he said that with his contacts, they want to get kids who played HS ball.  Of course there are a couple exceptions, but for the majority it is VITAL.  

 

"the college coach is there to coach baseball, the HS school coach is a teacher.... the college player is likely under scholarship to play, the high school player plays becasue he lives in that zone..."

 

Again, gross generalization that I have to take issue with.  Your statement infers that HS coaches aren't there to really coach because they have another job title, most likely a teacher with the school.  Please do not make assumptions like that or, at least, explain that there are probably some that are in this position.  Many HS coaches coach because they want to, they want to help kids, they know baseball well,and they love baseball. My job during the day is a guidance counselor.  But my passion has always been baseball, and coaching our baseball team is what I eat, sleep and breathe.  This keeps getting brought up, but again-of course most HS coaches are teachers or something with the school.  In most cases they have to be! That doesn't mean that they aren't good or that their primary passion isn't coaching!  

 

My HS baseball coach, in my experience, was a better coach than my college coach.  It's all situational and based on personal experience, but if people keep making big generalizations about this issue then you are going to get posts like this from myself and the other HS coaches on the board.  You're damn right we are going to defend the profession because the ones here passionate and probably great coaches.  

 

Originally Posted by TCB1:

… This is called the HIGH SCHOOL baseball website. And yet when we get to the broader topics on this board, the tenor seems to be (some times specifically) "High school ball doesn't matter", "Summer is the only thing that matters", "The only real ball is high level select"....Well, I"m sure I won't get our owners to change the name of the website, but doggone it, I liked the site a bit better when I found it many, many years ago.  The first thing I found was "How To Make The High School Team" and I loved printing it up and putting it on a bulletin board for my kids so they could see what they needed to do to be successful.

 

What’s happened here over the years is that many of the “old timers” kids have moved on to bigger and better things, or quit the game. But they keep posting, with more and more posts having more to do with what lies beyond HSBB than HSBB itself. Rather than spend most of the time dealing with HSBB and what its about for the 90% of players who aren’t likely to play beyond HS, more and more time is spent on that 10% or less.

 

There seems to be animosity toward whoever is perceived to be "Old Timers" posting their opinions here, which apparently undermine the general consensus of those that aren't "Old Timers." If you don't desire the opinion of such "Old Timers" you should speak up and let people know, so that the "Old Timers" with the knowledge and experience of everything being discussed don't share the knowledge and experience anymore.

 

I think most parents are terrific. Nearly all of them as a matter of fact. The ones I think are idiots are those that talk way too much when they should not be talking at all except in support of the team and the coach. Those are the parents I have seen inflict an amazing amount of damage and mostly on their own sons.

Stats, when Bob started this site in 1998, this was his stated goal:

 

"After wearing out several search engines I found that there was very little information about the high school baseball experience. As the father of a potential college and/or professional baseball player I could find very little about the college recruiting process or the way the Major League Baseball free-agent player draft worked."

 

I don't post much anymore except on a few topics, such as this one. But, I think Bob's mission says it is okay for me to continue to do so.

Our son started a few years back as a HS coach.  After interactions somewhat similar to those being described in this thread, capped by an email from a parent at the end of the season stating an error in game 3 needed to be changed to a hit so his son would have a certain achievement, he left HS coaching for college.

How do we ever expect to keep those with potential to be top coaches involved at the HS level when the pay is awful to non-existent and the experience reflects the varied views in this thread?  Perhaps this thread reflects some of the reasons for less than stellar coaching at the HS level, when that exists?

Oh come on, you have got to be kidding!

Son began playing at 6 and at 28 is still in the game. Figure that out, how many different coaches do you think he has had over those 22 years? 

Only twice did we step up, once because he sat on the bench in a big tournament when he could have played on another team every game, and once in HS when we felt he had used son too much in one tournament at the beginning of the season (close to 100 pitches).

I have seen everything from the good bad and the ugly (that includes professional) from the coaches/managers side as to the parents side as well.

I do believe one of the reasons son has been in the game for so long is because he has learned that in order to succeed in this business you have to meet and put up with every type of situation, philosophy and that might include having to do stuff you really didn't think would benefit you but the guy who was your instructor wanted it that way.

 

Over the years we have seen here, countless whiney parents. Here is just a few complaints:  my son is better than anyone and he has to sit, the coaches son gets the position over my son, the coach wants my son to do it one way and we have paid lots of money for him to do the other way, I paid lots of money for my son to be on a top travel team and he doesn't get his fair share of playing time, we give a lot to the booster club so I expect my son to play, the other parents are jealous because my son plays more than theirs, my son made JV when he is better than the guys on varsity, the coach kept my son in too long on the mound, the coach took son out too early, my son does better in the line up as a 3,4 hitter but the coach won't put him there, it's too cold, it's too hot, the travel fees are ridiculous,  the players don't take the HS game seriously,  the HS coach sucks, the travel coach sucks, my son did much better at a PG event but didn't get a good rating, all these kids are getting offers and mine isn't, the offer wasn't big enough, they had no money to offer, my son didn't get drafted and he has a better win record or batting average then someone who did,  etc,. etc. 

And last but not least, I know more than the HS coach.

 

So its old, really old.

 

I have very rarely seen any parent come here to say that their player had a great HS experience and thanks to the coach who put up with their player for 4 years. Very rarely do coaches here insult parents as much as the parents have insulted coaches.

Can you imagine their stories!

 

Time has proven that despite all of these issues, players move forward, some fade away (especially the ones where mom and dad did everything for them) and some thrive and learn at a very early age to know when you should speak up and when to keep it to yourself.

It's very easy to come to a message board and b & m when no one knows who you are, why not let us know who you are and where you live and who your son is. No you wouldn't do that, because you don't want any retribution towards your son!  It's so much easier to hide behind a message board.

 

I feel the same way as Jemaz, most parents really have the ability to see their players only though rose colored glasses.

Not all coaches/managers are created equal.  I know you understand that.

I also salute the HS coaches who seem to put up with lots and lots of bs and get paid nothing for their time, and when those expectations don't meet what isd expected, they are bad coaches. THIS IS HIGH SCHOOL BASEBALL, an extra curricular activity, it you have issues with it, don't have your son play!

The coach giving your son drills you feel he doesn't need is most likely thinking he is helping your son to improve in the game, and that I have found to be 90% of what coaches do.

I know you mentioned this is a player not your son (come on) so if it is not, it really isn't your business than is it?

My opinion is that you and others are part of the generation that thinks that their kids, or their money, or their influence, or how much they spend on lessons, travel leagues, owe it to your sons because, well, they are just all studs and better than everyone else.

BTW, high school baseball is so much more important than some realize. There's something about taking pride in playing for your school colors, the same teammates for 4 years, being a leader and how you represent your program. Don't think for one minute that this is not an important aspect that coaches consider when handing out scholarships! No college coach wants a guy who thinks it's all about them!

Amen!

I respect your opinions, but in my case, son is ranked top 1000 in country, has a MLB pitching coach, travel was ranked 18 in nation by PG.  Now I have a pitching coach with NO varsity coaching exp.......

This is the question you asked, you got a variety of answers.  However, like many, the answers didn't fit to your liking so it's seen as biased towards the person you came to complain about.

And yes, you did come to complain about the coach, and you knew that this would open up a discussion for other disgruntled parents (dads mostly).

Funny thing is, you really didn't get as much support as you thought that you would!

This is our experience.

 

After HS, the curve undoubtedly shifts to the right. Until then, I believe it's every player's job to learn something from them all. Virtually all young players will at one time or another play for coaches at varying points on the curve. The truly committed, coachable ones will listen, be respectful, hustle, play for the team, and make it to the next level.

 

Many of the rest will look back and try to blame someone -- perhaps a summer or HS coach, but just as likely (if we're not careful) -- a parent -- for their failure. Only later, when they're adults, will they hopefully come to realize that their future was in their own hands all along.

Cmon man.  Just shut and take it.  

Seriously though as bad as it seems will this be a lesson for our kids on how to deal with life at a later date?  At least that is what I keep telling myself.  

Let me rephrase the statement, the HS coach SHOULD be there to teach first that is his primary position. The college coach primary position is to coach the team. Please don't pick apart the post, I have said many times in this thread I like HS baseball, I very much enjoy it, my sons enjoy it, but there are some coaches like in any profession that are not good at what they do and their problems, mistakes, issues should and need to be addressed.  players do not get a second chance, coaches get a new crop every year to perfect their craft.... That's why the older coaches usually win and are better teachers of the game... I have a young coach with NO varsity

exp.....

 

 

"I respect your opinions, but in my case, son is ranked top 1000 in country, has a MLB pitching coach, travel was ranked 18 in nation by PG."

 

bacdoor,

I am not  certain I understand the point with this information you have posted about your son. Are you saying he deserves something because of this in terms of the issues in this discussion?

Would it be also correct that because of the ranking and "stuff," your son has more to give for the HS coach and program and not just what he does on the mound?

Young coach..."with no varsity experience." Boy, does that ring true.  Pretty much what some parents said about our son a few years back.

Not being qualified to arbitrate the opinions of different coaches, I told my son he should listen to whatever advice any coach gives him, but he is the ultimate owner of every pitch he throws, so it's his responsibility to decide whether and how he implements the advice he hears.  

 

I was pleased with how he handled one such situation recently.  The private pitching coach he works out with at home during school breaks had him doing some things different from the way his college coach teaches--and he thought the private coach's approach was helping.  He didn't want to go back to school and have to unlearn what he had been working on, so he introduced the two coaches to each other.  They shared video of his motion, talked their way through it, and now everyone is on the same page. Obviously, this approach  works only if both coaches are open minded.  But it can work.  And Dad didn't have to say anything to anyone.   

Is that what you did shutup and take it? 

Actually, pretty easy to know who I am.  Just do your research on this site, and my complaint about sons head coach is legit. Also, there are plenty of people on this site that bang on parents.

Also, stating that you are so free from doing anything wrong as a parent when you went to a coach and cried about your sons playing time in a tournament?  Comical!

Wow... this thread has turned into a bit of battlefield. Things tend to bog down and get personal when we start talking too specifically about "my kid's experience" or "my specific coaching experience" instead of trying to stay big picture and keeping our first hand experiences more general as just one example. Following along with most of the previous posts:

• Stats4gnats has made a couple of good points... thats right, I said it! Maybe not coincidentally, neither point had anything to do with statistics. Point 1) This IS the High School baseball web... and it does seem as though people move from "hope son makes and does well on the HS squad" to "HS ball is beneath us and means nothing compared with Summer ball" very quickly. HS baseball is greatness and vitally important both TO and FOR our players. It's about much more than just baseball skill development... It's life development. It's an honor to play for your HS team... and the Head Coach is in charge, like him or not. Point 2) Getting a player branded as uncooperative or uncoachable is very dangerous. Whatever you think of your son's coach, and whether you're right or wrong about it, advising your player to ignore or discount his HS HC is probably not a wise move.
• JH sees the thread as old school posters vs new posters. I hope this isn't the case, because the experienced posters on this board are what makes it such a worthwhile exercise. Every poster has a number next to their name. Generally those with 1,000+ posts and upward are offering valuable perspective to the rest of us... even if you don't totally agree.  And if you don't agree with it now, you might find that you will agree with it later on down the road when you've learned a few of their lessons. Meanwhile, I've learned plenty from newbies with 10 posts as well.
• As far as weighing "Parent's baseball expertise" vs "HS Coach's baseball expertise", that shouldn't be as at odds as it seems to be in this thread. But if that's really the argument, give me the Coach's hands down. There's a guy posting in this very thread who demonstrates EXACTLY why parents should generally "sit and shut". Even when misconceptions are explained in detail, the blather continues in utter oblivion. All you can do is shake your head. I'm sure every HS Coach has his share of this type parent to contend with.

What does the dads mostly mean??

Bacdor,

 

My son was ranked 50 in his class and played for a losing HS program.

It had absolutely no bearing what  he does on the mound although he took his team to their first regional in about 5 years.

If you feel that HSBB is not important, than what does it matter?

 

Absolutely about dealing with life later on.

The responses here came from dads, that's what it means.

College  kid and High School kid are two different animals.  i am glad it worked out though, and it sounds like all involved handled it the right way.  Not all coaches are that open to listening. 

It doesn't make a lick of difference...

I just wanted to be clear that for me in my siutation, my issue are not at all about playing time.... I am not saying he deserves anything......just that he knows some of the things being taught are incorrect.  Son tried to help other pitchers, he was trying to be a leader, coach tells him, to stop trying to help other players, and that he is the coach and son is the player.... So son was trying to do what he felt was right.... got shot down... I could go on and on  35 kids in the barn and one young coach.... its just not working, kids are getting hurt using weights,  coming  up with overuse injuries... 

So how did your son handle the fact that he had no exp. and some parents were on his case.  I don't know , your son may be a very good coach, and I know some parents do not know what they are talking about, but some do.  I personally feel that during the HS season,  players should not take lessons from outside sources.... My sons instructor left for spring training.... and we siad that's great timing because HS starts soon.   My issue is not a gray area about doing some drills, but when they are so wrong it affects all the pitchers... example.... in one week they threw 2 bullpens, med toss, loss toss, short box and worked out there legs twice....  every pitcher in there was aching so bad they could not perform... they remind that coach hey we did a lot this week, and he's saysing really we did all that iin one week? 

I was trying to make a point to infielddad that "playing time" was not the issue as he said it was in most cases.

TPX is wrong again, its funny how anytime she don't agree with someone she will try to add the element of dishonesty to the poster. There must be some level of deceit in her heart or perhaps her life to always do this. ( I will say a prayer for her today after BP) The one thing she is right about is people cant say who there kid is because of retaliation from the HS coach. I myself don't think it would be a very good idea to name people and put unneeded pressure, or create a difficult situation for someone. I know some very nice guys that didn't ask to be in my conversations, I may question some things they do, but why would I want to put a spotlight on them in a unfair arena?

 

 I thought my original post was accurate and as truthful as possible. I gave all party's involved compliments, but that wasn't good enough for Ms. Rocking chair.

 

 As for my son he will be playing for a solid coach, who runs a tight program. He is stern, but I have seen him reach out to the kids that needed a little leeway. If we play .500 ball it will feel like a successful season. The coach hasn't been blessed over the years with an abundance of talent. He works hard on off season conditioning, and helps with fundraisers, I would say our coach is a good coach!

 

bacdoor- How is the example you provided "so wrong"?

 

We have done the same thing with our son.  No lessons or traveling during HS Season.