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78 replies

Shame on all the select coaches

CQ Coach QualkenbushMember
Now by all the select coaches of coarse I mean the majority. Thank the good lord there still are good organizations that care about the kids first and not the money. That being said, it bothers me to no end that I have to charge so much to put together a competitive team over the summer. Yes I coach the Dallas Drillers and no I don't care if you all know who I am. Obviously, when I tell you my last name in every posting.
Back to topic - At some point the main focus of select baseball in Dallas became money and not helping the kids improve. You can argue with this all you want, but the facts are, good tournaments cost too much money to enter, certain organizations have excluded everyone else from their reindeer games so they can corner the market, and parents are left with a flurry of different opinions and promises when all they are trying to do is what's best for their children. Have I added to this problem by starting a new organization? Maybe. But I do know that I long for the days when all the talent in the area played in one league and you had guys like Kerry Wood, Ben Grieve, Vernon Wells, and so on playing in the same league with everyone else. Other people may say that they are trying to up the level of competition by starting a new league, but the simple fact is they are just adding to the growing problem. Baseball should not be about money and power until ballplayers make it to the bigs. When that happens everyone involved is an adult and they can deal with it.
Why couldn't we have one league with different levels. No more organizations that have 15 teams, and no more sword fighting among everyone off the field.

It's a shame that so many people are trying to exploit these kids. Highschool baseball is about team, learning to win, and improvement.

NOT MONEY
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Bighit15Bighit155,000+ posts
Coach, good post. I would agree that hs baseball should be about
quote:
Highschool baseball is about team, learning to win, and improvement.

I agree with that. I think that the coaches need to recognize that select ball has become a venue for parents to get their kid showcased. It is a fact of life now. I, personally, have never felt that select ball was about improving the kids. It seems to me to be about recruiting the best players possible and playing at a high level of competition. Select teams have gotten watered down and your idea of one league with different levels is a good one. However, I would like to see the most elite teams hook up to play on a regular basis (even if you have to travel out of the area). After all, one will improve more playing the best competition "possible".

quote:
But I do know that I long for the days when all the talent in the area played in one league and you had guys like Kerry Wood, Ben Grieve, Vernon Wells, and so on playing in the same league with everyone else.


Unfortunately, those days are gone.

As a parent, I had to determine what was the best possible situation and comnpetition for my child. Once that was done, then it was a total team committment.
CQ Coach QualkenbushMember
Those days are not gone, just lost. And with anything that is lost, it can be found. All it will take is committed people to fight for what is really the best option for the kids. One league will still allow the egos to have a good team it will just be harder. God forbid a challenge. And in this one league with different levels the appropriate competition will take place. In other words the elite kids won't be whipping up on the kids that need more work.

This won't affect recruiting any because last time I checked coaches are allowed to attend league games if they would like. It would bring more scouts to the Dallas area and open up opportunities to all the kids that can't afford to be on the traveling "super teams".
K KellerDad1,000+ posts
First, you could expect one league in Cuba or China, but in the good old USA we have something called capitolism. As long as there is money to be made, there will be more teams, more leagues and more people getting soaked.

You underestimate the number of leagues, as there are a few over here on the west side of town as well.

My son's team played in one of the new leagues this summer, and you know what? It was 10 times better than BBI. Why, you ask? No High School teams to contend with. No blow outs all summer.

One of the reasons for all of the leagues is it opens spots up for MM and CM tournament invitations. Get rid of that rule, and you will get rid of half of the leagues.

I am one, though, that believes leagues are a waste of time, money and diesel fuel. I think once the kids get over 15, they should play tournaments only, giving the boys some time during the week to be boys. (Chase girls, work jobs, go to the beach)
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
Coach,

If you are proposing something similar to the manner in which they handle club sokker in this area, I think that would be a good plan. But, in my opinion, it can't be a new BBI or a revamped Lone Star -- it has to be something new that has buy-in from the "powers that be" in Metroplex summer baseball. And frankly, as good as it sounds, there are simply too many egos to overcome. It's not necessary to name names -- everyone is in it for the kids, right? Smile But what happens to the teams that are "left out" of the Elite Division....and where do we start?

Elite Division -- ideally at least 8 teams
Mustangs, DBAT, Tigers, Marshals, Patriots, Panthers, Blackhawks, FW Cats ?

Premier Select Division
Drillers, Curve?, Big Timers, DR-something, Wranglers, Wizards, Heat, high school teams ?

Scary Animal Division
Lions, Tigers, Bears (oh my)

Movement of teams from one division to another based on record, qualifying tournament, etc.?

See what I mean? My post probably angered someone -- parent, coach, or otherwise -- because their group wasn't mentioned or they weren't listed in the "right" place.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea --- but I'm skeptical. Smile
Last edited by Panther Dad
K KellerDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Coach,

If you are proposing something similar to the manner in which they handle club sokker in this area, I think that would be a good plan. But, in my opinion, it can't be a new BBI or a revamped Lone Star -- it has to be something new that has buy-in from the "powers that be" in Metroplex summer baseball. And frankly, as good as it sounds, there are simply too many egos to overcome. It's not necessary to name names -- everyone is in it for the kids, right? Smile But what happens to the teams that are "left out" of the Elite Division....and where do we start?

Elite Division -- ideally at least 8 teams
Mustangs, DBAT, Tigers, Marshals, Patriots, Panthers, Blackhawks, FW Cats ?

Premier Select Division
Drillers, Curve?, Big Timers, DR-something, Wranglers, Wizards, Heat, high school teams ?

Scary Animal Division
Lions, Tigers, Bears (oh my)

Movement of teams from one division to another based on record, qualifying tournament, etc.?

See what I mean? My post probably angered someone -- parent, coach, or otherwise -- because their group wasn't mentioned or they weren't listed in the "right" place.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea --- but I'm skeptical. Smile


If my son still played for the Heat, I'd be offended. biglaugh
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bighit15:

However, I would like to see the most elite teams hook up to play on a regular basis (even if you have to travel out of the area). After all, one will improve more playing the best competition "possible".


Back here in Texas, Premier Baseball is working in that direction. This summer, the below listed teams played against each other in tournaments almost every weekend. On any given weekend, one or two of the teams were somewhere else. And a few outside teams were present at most of the tournaments. But these top tier clubs saw each other a lot.

Austin Slam
Austin Wings
Burkburnett Blacksox (not sure how much they participated)
Columbia Angels
Dallas Mustangs
Houston Heat
Kyle Chapman
South Texas Sliders.
V Vanlandingham100+ posts
Like it or not, there are only 7 or 8 select teams in each age group in DFW. Some age groups it is 3 or 4. The rest are REC. teams claiming to be something else. Some father has decided little Johnny needs to play short stop and hit third. So let's form a team.

I'm curious why coaches EGO's are always the problem. I know a large number of coaches in this area. Only a few would I consider to be coaching for the wrong reasons. It is the exception and not the rule. This web site makes it out to be the rule. I like it when this web site talks about players, teams and events. Don't turn it into an extension of second guessing the coaches from the stands.

It's not all about the money. I charged my kids $700 each. Raised about $6,000 on my own and paid about $4,000 out of my own pocket. For that we played at El Reno Ok, OU, OSU, Weatherford twice, UTA and the Triple Crown (bootleg) World Series. We played 14 league games at La Grave, UTA and TCU. My ego must be an IDIOT.

Hopefully, most of you are not refering to individuals like myself when you talk about ego's. My experience is that there are more out there like this than the other.

Money had nothing to do with what I tried to do for those kids.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
I may be missing something -- when were coaches indicted here? I don't think we're talking about coaches egos, despite the fact that the topic mentions "coaches" in the title. Having said that...some of the DFW baseball egos coach teams. Before PantherDad is added to a "list" -- EGO is not all bad. And, as BIGHIT has mentioned on several occasions, neither is making money while providing a service.

VL, we can debate your sanity in another thread. Smile
Last edited by Panther Dad
F funneldrill1,000+ posts
Just a thought about how to divide up the league if you wanted to let "everybody in."

Let's say you have 24 teams.

The season is divided into 2 halves.

First half, everyone plays each other once(23 games).

Then, you take the standings at the end of the first half and make 4 divisions for the second half.
1st-6th is Division 1
7th-12th is Division 2
13th-18th is Division 3
19th-24th is Division 4

Second half you play everyone in your division once. Everyone in D1 plays D2 once, everyone in D3 plays D4(11 games).

Every win against a Division 1 team, you get 4 points.
Every win against a Division 2 team, you get 3 points.
Every win against a Division 3 team, you get 2 points.
Every win against a Division 4 team, you get 1 point.
***You get points for all the games in the 1st half of the season also.

At the end of the second half, Division 1 and 2 winners get automatic bids to a city tournament.
Next 6 highest point totals get wildcard slots.
Have an 8 team double elimination tournament.

This is how the DABA does their wood bat summer league with 16 teams in the league.

I know logistics could be a problem, as well as other things.

But, it would be a great league and the "cream will always rise to the top."
C crawdad100+ posts
I don't know if "egotistical" coaches are the problem with the big increase in numbers of select teams or leagues. I think it is the gradual and noticeable influx of well to do kids now playing baseball.

For some reason select baseball has turned into a sport for wealthy (or relatively wealthy) white kids.

I don't have any hard evidence to prove my point except for years of playing baseball and having my kids play baseball. The demographics have definitely changed in my opinion.

There are alot of parents with alot of money who think baseball is the best chance their kids have to succeed in sports. I think there is your reason for the increase in select teams and leagues in the DFW area and elsewhere.
Last edited by crawdad
LongtossLongtoss100+ posts
I don't think we should blame ALL the coaches. I see it more with the organization and the manager. Also, in general the coaches coach and yes they have egos. But they are not the reason the system is screwed up.

Baseball like all sports is now a business. You have facilites opening all the time, private lessons, training programs, camps, teams, etc.

The horse is out of the barn. I think in time things will work themselves out, however we are in for some crazy times first. Look at all the new teams, mergers, acquisitions, etc. Sounds too much business....thought we were talking sports.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
Sounds like we have a commissioner!

Problems might be ---

This many games will force weekend play, in lieu of tournaments and showcase events, unless there are double-headers, which require fields with lights (shouldn't be a huge problem in DFW, eh?).

Initial placement in divisions might be a challenge. A strong team in D3 can only get six points for sweeping D4 in the 2nd half.

FD -- if you build it....they will........oh, what am I thinking????
F funneldrill1,000+ posts
Panther dad,

Great Points! One could leave key weekends open for the real big tournaments and showcases.

Good point about the D3 teams. My response, they should have beaten some of those top teams in the first half. I would have a post season tournament for the other teams...kind of like a consolation tournament.

By reseeding for the second half, your "Premier teams" would be playing each other. They would have earned "premier" status by beating everyone in the first half. Imagine that settling things on the field. This way, those teams and organizations would have to prove they were elite, instead of getting on this message board and telling everyone.

Just trying to help. I am just a high school coach sitting back listening to all this. Bottom line, only the way the kids get better is by playing!
K KellerDad1,000+ posts
crawdad, it's like that in all organized sports these days.

My older daughter played Tennis....mainly white affluent kids.

My youngest rides horses and is taking diving lessons....mainly white affluent kids.

My son plays baseball....mainly white affluent kids.

Golf, BMX, Motorcross, Jr. Dragsters, Legends Cars, bicycling (both on road and mountain), softball, volleyball and sokker...and the list goes on...all sports that I have friends that participate are the same way.
MelyndaMelynda100+ posts
What goes around will someday come back around (hopefully) ....I think there will (someday) be a return to the "basics". I saw a LL tourney in Farmers Branch in July. One of the 9 year old pitchers for Farmers Branch All-Stars had a natural (and beautiful!) side arm delivery who collected quite a few K's in every game he pitched. My first thought was "This kid needs to be on a select team." My second thought was "Can his family afford it?". Third thought...."Leave him be and let his natural talent develop and maybe R.L.Turner will have a decent pitcher in 5 years!!" If the kid is still playing baseball and pitching well, the right people will find him @ the local high school.
C crawdad100+ posts
KellerDad, I don't disagree with your observations but are the activities that you highlight really in the realm of "team" sports or sports that may offer scholarships in college?

If we stick to organized team sports that offer the opportunity to play beyond high school here is what you might find:

1. Football - no organized "select" leagues for obvious reasons. However, participation in high school is obviously very diverse demographics wise - wealth is not a factor in participation.
2. Basketball - organized summer teams (AAU) dominated by lower income demographics.
3. S****r - Big increase in "Latin" select leagues - just look at the makeup of your high school team.
4. Baseball - summer select teams in DFW have a large percentage of affluent kids from the suburbs.

I just think that from the days when I was in high school playing baseball the players are now wealthier and whiter in the YOUNGER AGES.

I think it is interesting that when you get to the Major Leagues the OPPOSITE is happening - the Latin players will soon become the MAJORITY in the Major Leagues. I believe that 40% of all MLB rosters are made up of foreign players (includes those from Asia).

Even MLB is alarmed at the relatively low numbers of African American kids now playing youth baseball. MLB now has a program to re-introduce baseball to innercity boys.

I am not saying that affluent white parents are the only reason there has been a huge increase in select teams and leagues, but to say it is not a factor I think is ignoring the obvious.
texdad10texdad1010+ posts
Yes, but between the young, rich white kids in select ball and the greater mix in MLB lies good ol' college ball. Thanks to the NCAA's scholarship rules, D1 baseball is more exclusively white and rich than the local country club. (take a look inside the TCU, DBU, Baylor dugouts, for example). Thus, select teams at the HS ages look a lot like the D1 teams. Same folks chasing the same dreams - early exposure for D1 ball. I suspect that if the NCAA showed a little leadership on this issue a more diverse mix would trickle down. Until then, only rich white kids from the 'burbs need apply for select ball (and for that matter D1 ball) and that won't be changing any time soon. We are not going to solve that at this level.
C crawdad100+ posts
Texdad - you are right on the money. College baseball does NOT reflect MLB. However, college basektball and football DO reflect their respective professional leagues demographic-wise.

I honestly thought that this disconnect between select, high school, and/or college baseball regarding MLB would have been obvious to most but apparantly I was mistaken.

It really is an interesting phenomena. Like I said, most select baseball parents don't want to talk about it but I promise you that MLB has noticed and they are concerned. They want the best athletes in the USA playing the game and the league does not think that that is happening. Judging by the decreasing numbers of US born MLB baseball players the league does have something to be concerned about.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
CD -- it may be that select baseball parents picture their kids in college baseball but few picture them in pro-ball. And, supporting our sons to play college baseball is within our "grasps". Influencing the number of latin players in baseball is not. Concerning football and basketball, I can't influence the fact that my son's genetics will probably result in a man shorter than 6'4" and less than 250#.....both somewhat "small" when considering college OR pro averages in those sports.
K KellerDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by crawdad:
PD - I agree with you.

I was just trying to answer the original question of why are there so many select teams and leagues forming.


That one is simple

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$While Vanlandingham is a great guy, giving of his time and "hard" earned dollars, I've had many conversations with him about the $$ in this sport.

Somebody like Lynn, with the love of the game that he has, his expertise in putting together teams and his known ability for knowing good talent could make a fortune on the west side of D/FW.

An absoulte fortune.
Last edited by KellerDad
H Hintite10+ posts
Maybe this should be a different thread, but what to do about hs coach who tells son that because he missed 3 summer hs league games he is not committed to baseball. meanwhile we spent $$$ traveling all over this summer, he was seen by scouts and has gotten calls and letters. hs coach response was that he didn't believe it because son had not previous varsity experience. letter from baylor asks for coaches opinion of son. hs coach will not fill it out because he has not seen him pitch, told son that other letters/questionaires he has recieved will not be filled out either until he has seen him pitch at varsity level. Punishment for not toeing the line, I guess (never bothered to come to jv games last year) is it okay to have summer coach fill out questionaire so we can get it returned before the end of baseball season in may since son is a sr? what would you do in this situation?
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
Have the summer coach fill it out and have your son include a note as well, indicating that the HS coach has not seen him pitch and is therefore hesitant to fill out the paperwork. If you aren't just using Baylor as an example, I believe the coaches there are very understanding of this type of situation and will be patient until further feedback is available. And/or they'll come see your son pitch.

The Baylor coaching staff is first-class. Our select team spent some time with them this summer.

Also, see if the summer coach will make himself available to talk to them directly.

One thing to keep in mind. A select coach is putting his reputation on the line every time he talks to a college coach about a player. We, as parents, need to respect that when we ask them to become involved.

-PD
Last edited by Panther Dad
Frozen Ropes GMFrozen Ropes GM1,000+ posts
quote:
One thing to keep in mind. A select coach is putting his reputation on the line every time he talks to a college coach about a player. We, as parents, need to respect that when we ask them to become involved.

You're right about this PD. There are many players/parents that fail to realize that they just aren't what a UT or Baylor is looking for. Having great communication with your HS and summer coaches is key. It may be a bitter pill to swallow but coaches should feel obligated to tell a player that they are better suited in their development out of HS to play for a JUCO instead of a Big 12 school. This doesn't mean they should give up the dream but rather they should keep things in perspective as they prepare to advance their baseball career.

I've seen some coaches talk up players that are obviously not suited to DI baseball get ridiculed behind their backs. If I were to call Mitch Thompson at Baylor about every kid that asked me to - he wouldn't take my calls anymore. Not that he does anyway.... Smile
Last edited by Frozen Ropes GM
LongtossLongtoss100+ posts
Dbat,

Good point. Parents need to understand this as well and try and see where their son stacks up and not set expectations too high. If parents really take time and evaluate where their son is at, they could prepare him from what level they are best suited.

All players want D1, but they are not all D1 prospects. Take them to some showcases, and get evaluations on them. See where they are at and what it takes to get to that level the want to achieve. If they want it bad enough and can improve to what it takes, then go for it.

Otherwise, keep it in perspective and don't set them up for a big let down.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
There are college baseball opportunities for most every good player.

My oldest son played for 4 years at a Texas D3 -- a perfect spot for him.

My middle son played for 2 years at a Texas D1 JUCO -- a good fit for his skill-level, preparing him for his walk-on dream.

My youngest -- who knows? -- but the right opportunity is out there.

Having a realistic view of your son's talent will benefit everyone in the long run.

Easier said than done....eh?
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